Hi Bill,<P>I admit it, I've been lurking here for a while, because the topic interested me. <P>When I read your post I thought immediately that there IS hope, for one reason. Most women do not just give themselves to a man. They need an emotional bond. Okay, you two were married and you would expect that there WAS a bond, but not now, especially from her, unless she is rethinking things. And so I'd say she is rethinking.<P>I'd also say from what you've said that you handled it pretty well in her presence. Which is going to mean a lot. I know emotionally you are holding back, but don't put up a wall either, cos I think she's moving. And you want to let her know you are there, if that's what you want, of course!<P>All the very best Bill.<P>Jacky<P>

Yep, you men. Can live with them and can't live without them.<P>Maybe she is working on that trait and is now afraid to tell you how she really feels because it would be like admitting that she is/was wrong. As I have said in many of my posts, if it is a trait that has been with her all of her life, it will not change overnight.<P>I am happy for you that your conversation last night helped convince you that an affair was not the problem for you two. Based on my calculations, you two were very young when your relationship started and she could be feeling like she has missed out on "something" in life because of having the kids so young. I too went through that but never to the extent I wanted to end my marriage. I think that is why my H and I are having some of the problems we are now because I was, if you will, jealous of him being able to still go out with the guys once a week while I was home with the kids. I have always been the worrier/caretaker/provider and he is like my 4th child and was always able to not let things bother him. He always encouraged me to go out once a week with my girlfriends but I am usually so tired that it is not worth it to me.<P>It makes me happy to know that you still do things as a "family". I think it is very healthy for all involved.<P>Bill, thanks again for the kind words. I am learning the advice thing but I will always listen and do the best I can to help.<P>NICOLE --<P>""""And Michele... HOW in the heck did he get into bed with you? Did he talk about it? Or did he just walk in there when you were in there? You didn't talk about it?""""<P>He just crawled into bed with me sometime after I went to bed last night. My normal temptation is to grab onto him but I have learned during all of my Plan A'ing that me making the first move is a HUGE LB for him. Nothing was talked about but in prior conversations over these past 5 months, I have always told him that he is welcome back anytime he is ready. There is no guarantee that he will sleep in the bed with me tonight but it is a baby step for him. He is the one that has to let the huge brick wall, that I have created, come down.<P>The fact that he chuckled reminded me of the place my husband was at a couple of months ago. I would make similar comments and he would chuckle and change the subject. I have just hung in there with Plan A and am hoping and praying it will work out for us in the long run. Don't give up hope on your husband yet. To me, the fact that he didn't get upset with your question means something. If he wasn't curious, he would have asked which side you were sleeping on.<P>Michele

Thanks Jacky,<P>You know I pray everynight for God to slowly soften her heart, those prayers may be getting through but it is way to early to tell. In the mean time, I feel that I must really guard my heart while at the same time keep on showing her love.<P>Two weeks ago, hell three days ago, I really felt like it was totally over and I actually felt pretty relieved about that. Well, looks like I'm firmly assuming my position on the roller coaster, hopefully the ride won't be so bumpy. But it is truly hard not to get filled with hope even with the full knowledge that I should have no expectations.<P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

Bill... what makes you feel guilty about this?<P>Michele... thanks for the encouragement. I have to remember NOT to make the first move. Even tonight when he was moving a box that I set outside his door upstairs I lightly touched his waist. He didn't flinch... well, couldn't really. But then he asked me to come up and get a letter that *needed a stamp* - okay, yeah. So, I did and it was a quick interchange and he asked me a few more questions and then that was it. He didn't dismiss me and I didn't bolt. So, I'm hoping we can at least rebuild a friendship... that's one of his TOP EN's companionship. So, I have to really be careful not to get this "holier than though" or "how could you be so irresponsible" or as his father calls it "pontificating" attitude. I never liked that anyway... but it's a learned response from FOO in that the one who spoke the loudest and with the most persuasion, won the attention of parents (I was number 5 of six kids and the product of my mother's affair). So, I had to learn fast... that pattern really did a lot of damage in many of my relationships over the years.<P>Ok, I'm rambling here... I've had insomnia for so many nights now. I hear my H get up in the middle of the night around 5 am or so (he's getting ready to go jogging) and I've not been able to get to sleep until 2 am or so. So, now it's Thursday and I've been doing this all week so I'm tired.<P>I'll be keen to hear if he decided to sleep with you again tonight. Also, did you touch him at all in the night... I mean rolling around sometimes your arms and legs get all intertwined or were you even conscious (sp? it's late) of that?<P>Cheers!<BR>Nicole<P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>Bill... what makes you feel guilty about this?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's a good question. Maybe "guilt" is not the right word but here are a couple of the things that I'm calling my guilt:<P>1. I'm opening up my wounds that are just starting to heal.<BR>2. It's possible that I am allowing myself to be used as an unpaid whore, if it is just sex.<P>But the clincher for me is that I do feel guilt for not being able to end this relationship. You know my history, Nicole, we've talked about that. So after being treated like sh&^ for so many years and having her walk out on me (TWICE), why do I continue to want, long, and desire this person? <P>SORRY I WANT TO TALK MORE BUT I JUST GOT A BOMB DROPPED ON ME. I'm ok and I'll be back. <P><P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

(((((Bill)))))<P>I need to think about this one a little longer but wanted you to know that I am here for you. I probably won't be on the board that much today because a girlfriend and I are going to a day spa. I am finally taking some of everyone's advice and doing something for myself.<P>I hope your plans for this weekend are still on and that you can all have a good time at the rodeo. I love the rodeo but you don't see to many of them in So. Cal.<P>Take care buddy and I will try to get back on the board before you leave for the day. You will be in my thoughts and prayers today.<P>Nicole & Bill - FYI -<P>My husband came into bed with me again last night. There was still no touching or cuddling but he was in their again. Do you think he is letting his wall down a little? He also, for the first time in months, invited me to come and watch his softball game tonight and then go out after the game with the team. That to me is a huge step.<P>Both of you take care today and I will try to be back later this afternoon. Again, I will be getting pampered at a day spa and my husband is home today too and dislikes the fact that I post on this board. BTW, my H has asked me so many questions as to why I took the day off from work and am going to the spa and how long will I be gone today. Poor baby.<P>Hugs & Prayers from So. Cal.<P>Michele<BR>sballplyr_21@yahoo.com

Plans for the weekend are probably OFF. BIG EXPLOSION!!!!!!<P>I'm still trying to pick up all the pieces. <P>ENJOY THE SPA!!!!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

Let me start by saying if you ever have the opportunity to go to a day spa, do it. It was the best thing I have done for myself in a long time.<P>After my spa trip on Friday, my weekend went in a complete downward spiral. For anyone that has been following my posts, please bare with me because this could be a long one and I am just trying to give a little background of the weekend.<P>Anyway, when I got home from the spa I was so relaxed it was awesome, then reality reared its ugly little head. I was under the impression that my H and I were finally making a tiny little progress but I guess I was completely wrong. I was, what I thought, "invited" to go watch my husband play softball on Friday night and then we were to go out after. Well, his mother couldn't watch the kids and I was okay with that until my H said "I don't know why you thought you were going to the game anyway." Where did that come from when the day before he said it was okay. Well, I couldn't bite my tongue this time. I asked him why, now that friday night softball has started up again did he think he could just drop me like a bad habit. For the last three months, through all this turmoil, we have still been doing something together every friday night together but now all of a sudden, I have to stay home now. My feelings were so hurt. To make matters worse, his best friend who plays on the team, brought his son to my house so I can watch him while the two of them went out after the game. If this isn't disrespectful, I don't know what is. Whatever, I just dealt with it and made a good night out of a bad situation. I had my three kids and our friends son so we ordered pizza and watch movies. Now, it's 11:45 p.m. and my husband is home and he wants to "make love". This would be great except the fact that I knew he had been drinking. Nothing happened but he did sleep in the bed for the third consecutive night. Major breakthrough since for the last several months, he has been on the couch.<P>Saturday morning rolls around and he leaves the house at 9:00 a.m. to go help a friend do some demo work on his house. No big deal because the kids and I were off to the circus at 11:00 a.m. and home by 2:30 p.m. Then, my H finally calls at 4:30 p.m. to see what we were doing and I told him that the kids were all sleeping because they were wiped out. He asked if we were going to come over to the friends house. I simply answered no because on Thursday, the wife of our friend had said she did not want anybody over because the house would be a mess with all the demo going on. He took this as me having a bad attitude. I took it as me respecting someone wishes not to have a bunch of people running through her house, especially three kids. Well he said he was going to stay for a little while and I said no problem. He didn’t get home until after midnight and then slept on the couch. Probably just to punish me for not going over to the friends house. So far, I have tried to keep to Plan A except for my minor setback on Friday night.<P>Now on to Sunday, my H gets up at 5:30 a.m. to go play golf with a vendor and a couple of other managers from his work. Again, not a big deal, it is for business. I simply asked him that morning before he left what time he would be home because the kids have missed him all weekend. They had not seen him since 4:30 p.m. Friday afternoon. He said he would be home early. I continued on with my Plan A through the whole weekend. I cleaned the house, did the front and backyards (his job) and did 1 weeks worth of laundry (his job too). By the time he got home, I was completely exhausted and low and behold, he is not home 10 minutes and here comes the million dollar question WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU? This time I couldn’t bite my tongue, I fought it for several minutes but I just couldn’t do it. It wasn’t until my life long bestfriend, whose birthday dinner was yesterday, called to see if we were still going is when I snapped. You see, my H suggested I should just go alone. I just lost it, I had spent all weekend alone with the kids while my H did whatever he wanted and had his goodtime and now because we had something planned to go with my friends, he suggests I should just go alone.<P>Well I LB’d big time. I told him it is not fair that I have to always do and say whatever he wants and expects from me and try to be “MISS MARY SUNSHINE” all the time to make him happy when it is just killing me inside when he treats me like crap. We have been to several birthday dinners for OUR friends in the last six weeks so why couldn’t we go to this one. Of course, my LB brought up all of our problems again and wouldn’t you know it, he again “threatened” that he was leaving. He went so far as saying “Listen F---head, I am tired of your bull@#$$.” I told him please don’t call me names and that it was not fair that he dangle his leaving over my head everytime I point out to him that all I want is our marriage back and can’t he see I am fighting and crying out for this. I know this isn’t how to Plan A but I am just tired of trying and being taken advantage of. Why, when I am Plan A’ing my @$$ off is it okay for him to be disrespectful and selfish. It is not fair. What am I fighting for. I feel like I am climbing a wall that just keeps getting higher and higher. Once he was done insulting me and threatening to leave, I finally just walked out of the room. This was a first for me, I usually try to get the last word in but this time I didn’t because it doesn’t seem to matter. I simply cleaned off my face and left the room.<P>Can you believe it, later on that evening he had the nerve to ask me again WHAT’S WRONG?<P>ARGGGHH! Is he a complete idiot. Am I just beating my head against the wall with this one?<P>This morning he called me at work like nothing is wrong so I am going to continue my Plan A’ing but what am I to make of all this. Is he seeing how much I can take before I break? I am not one that will become the subservient wife so he can come and go as he pleases.<P>For the record, I did not go to our friends house Saturday night because I can babysit my kids anywhere so I thought I would do it in the comfort of my own home. This was my way of avoiding an LB Saturday because he would have been enjoying the hot tub and a couple of beers while I chase the kids around.<P>Thanks for letting me vent.<P>Hugs & Prayers from So. Cal.<P>Michele<BR>sballplyr_21@yahoo.com<BR>

((((Michele))))<P>First off, I'm glad that did that spa thing. You really need to do some things for yourself during these trying times.<P>As for your husband, I haven't a clue on what's going through his mind. I think that he is probably testing the waters and he knows which buttons to push to get a reation out of you. I sure know that my x, post divorce, is still pushing buttons and looking for reactions. So now is the hard part - DON'T REACT. Dear this is a game and your playing right into his hand. You react and in his mind he puts another check mark for reasons why your relationship can't work.<P>I plan A'd my butt off then one night she pushed the right button, I reacted, and got my final check mark. Even this last weekend, still pushing buttons, and justifying things in her mind. As long as I participate she doesn't have to come out of the fog.<P>Come on now, put that Plan A in front of you and resist the testing temptation. Otherwise, you are simply helping him nail the final nails into the coffin. So some more things for yourself, I know this is hard with kids, because I always felt guilty about being away from them, but YOU NEED TO FIND SOMETHING TO HELP YOU VENT!!!!!!!!<P>Keep writing and yes YOU CAN DO THIS!!!!<P>Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers from someone who cares<P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

Thanks for your words of encouragement and support again. I wish I could figure out what is going on in his head. I know I should do more things for myself but the guilt I feel when I do is overwhelming.<P>Also, my H always seems to have his weekends planned out before I can even say I have something planned for myself. When I do plan something for myself, he always manages to call my cell or gets mad because it may interfere with whatever he has going on. That is why I took the day off from work to take care of myself. Why is it that one spouse just assumes that the other one will take care of the kids without even asking?<P>I have been hinting to my husband that I want to go see a movie, any movie. You see this is something I have never wanted to do in the past. I asked him why he hasn't said he would like to go too and he said, "When I hear you say you want to go to the movies, it makes me so angry because he used to ask all the time." Anytime I make suggestions to do things, he gets angry and brings up "Why now?", "Why couldn't you do this before we started having problems?" I told him I didn't really know we were having problems because he made everything seem okay by not saying anything for years. So now, it is like he is punishing me for all the years past and I don't know how to get through all that.<P>I know I can do this but today I feel like "Why am I doing this?" or "Do I really want to do this?" I feel like I am changing into this person that I don't even know anymore. I used to be a practical joker and someone who always had a good time and now I feel like I can't even joke around anymore because it may hurt someone's (my H) feelings. If all this Plan A eventually works, am I going to feel like I have to walk on eggshells the rest of my life?<P>This is so hard. I don't know how a lot of the people on this site have Plan A'd for so long. I feel like a big baby because I have only been doing this for such a short time but it feels like and eternity.<P>How are things with you. I know you had a bad Friday, I hope it didn't ruin your weekend.<P>Thanks again for listening.<P>Michele

Michelle,<P>It sounds like he is hurting but doesn't know how to forgive. When he asks you "WHY NOW", if you are at fault for these accusations - like refusing him in the past for mean reasons, you need to apologize. A "naked" apology, with no excuses or defenses. Something like "I have been really awful to you in the past, and I apologize. I would like the chance to start over."<P>I think that you may have to be totally HONEST with him. "Honey - when your friend used me as a babysitter, and you wouldn't let me go to the game you were hurting me!! I will not let you hurt me forever. I have to care about myself in order to care about you." Plan A does not mean being a doormat. <P>Anne

Hi Michele...<P>You will feel a little beat up, like a doormat, like your personality is changing... but hang in there. You are you and some of the benefits (longterm) of Plan A are that you will emerge a better and more sensitive person. You will not *lose* the good of who Michele was in the past... just hang on to that. Just lose the other stuff... think of ways to change LBing behavior.<P>By the way, I don't think LBing is about avoiding any confrontational subjects... it's in saying it without being confrontational or rude. I think it's fine that you explained your frustration... the key is to explain it in a *new* way so that your point gets across and you don't break the relationship.<P>You see, he was acting like things were normal when you thought you LB'd him. He apparently didn't feel LB'd so the way you communicated your dislikes didn't seem to push him away. That's the key... you can't avoid talking about differences you just can change the way you do the talking.<P>Anyway, it's an intensely frustrating time but over time, you will be so much happier with yourself, I'm just sure of it.<P>Keep writing here and venting... it will help you get the plan for how you do want to be... instead of just trialing it out on your H and LBing him big time.<P>Cheers!<BR>Nicole<P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen

Harlequin99 --<P>I have apologized on numerous occasions and I have also told him that I cannot change the past but that I can only rebuild myself to make a better future for us. He then comes back with the "I don't believe in you because you have changed before". That was a hard comment to take. I have asked if we can start over and he said "What, do you just expect me to forget all the years of hurt of you (me) not being there for him." I did tell him that I didn't think it was fair that I had to watch a friends child so they could go out and have a good time. He did agree it was selfish.<P>OvrCs --<P>Thanks again for your words of encouragement. Here is another part of my frustration when my H and I talk. He gets mad at me when I talk in an even tone voice because he thinks I am being condescending and if I raise my voice he says don't yell at me. But when he talks to me, he yells. What is the deal.<P>I do think you are right that my LB's this weekend didn't push him away because I think he realized that he is being selfish in some of his actions right now.<P>This is so frustrating and I admire all of you who have been going at this a lot longer than I have.<P>I am going to keep up the Plan A'ing but it is so very frustrating.<P>Thanks to all for your support.<P>Hugs & Prayers from So. Cal.<P>Michele

Michele, you say, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Here is another part of my frustration when my H and I talk. He gets mad at me when I talk in an even tone voice because he thinks I am being condescending and if I raise my voice he says don't yell at me. But when he talks to me, he yells. What is the deal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, this kind of makes sense doesn't it? Either cold and even or hot and emotional... can you try for happy medium? That may require some time... like thinking a while before you speak so that your tone modulation is more moderated and you won't be forcing emotion down (monotone) nor getting upset (yelling).<P>I think that's reasonable. Just try for what works... don't kill yourself with this pursuit of perfection. Remember, you're never going to be perfect just progressing... give yourself a break and look at this for the LONG haul.<P>Oh, by the way, don't be daunted by his threats to move out. You've got to drain your fear of that right away or it will be used against you. If he moves, it will be his loss. YOu must remember that. Yeah, it will be sad for you but you will survive... Just think through any fear you have and get rid of them. You sound fearful of making a mistake also... You must work that through. You will and this whole relationship does not depend on your perfect performance of Plan A. Remember that too...<P>Cheers!<P><P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen