I have been married to my wife for almost five years. I just found out that she had an affair and it had been going on for about four months. A few months ago, she tried to tell me that she wanted to leave because although she loves me (we have 2 children together), she is not in love with me.<BR> This whole time I have really tried to be a better person. One of the LB's I used to always exhibit was sarcasm. I have virtually eliminated all sarcasm from our conversations. I have also lost about 30 pounds to make her attracted to me again.<BR> Another of the problems I have is a good memory. If she does something wrong or says something contrary to what she told me last week, last month, last year,etc., I dispute her with the attention to detail that only an experienced trial lawyer could have. But I'm not a lawyer.<BR> During the time that I have made my transformation into a better man, she has slowly retreated from her words of 3 months earlier ("I want to leave") and started to be affectionate to me again. She even made love (I thought) to me a couple of times and told me about how good I looked now. <BR> Unbeknownst to me, the affair was going on. I had my suspicions because her moods would shift radically. I was so confused, but I accepted her moodiness because I thought she was slowly falling in love with me again. Believe me, when the conversations, affection and the love-making were good, I really believed I had salvaged our marriage.<BR> Then, 2 days ago I realized my worst nightmare. She was cheating and I caught her at another man's house (not in the act, thank God). She now tells me that the reason she was sweet and affectionate to me while I was changing was because she cares about me and did not want me to be hurt. But it hurts worse now because I thought I was really doing something good; her actions toward me only reinforced the idea that I was succeeding.<BR> Now I've had the rug pulled out from under me and I feel hopeless. She says she wants to leave and take the kids with her because they need her more than me right now (they are young). She says I can see them whenever I want and she wants us to be friends.<BR> I have done nothing but help this woman for five years. I can honestly say that nearly every decision I've made has been for her well-being. I have never hit her, cheated on her, used drugs, etc. I wonder if I have been too protective of her. Maybe that is why she can leave me so easily. Does anybody think there might be a lack of respect for me on her part. She says she feels that she can do anything to me and I will be there for her.<BR> Here is where it get's complex: My wife is an immigrant and she could barely speak English when we met. Now she can speak good English and she even has a full time job. She doesn't make nearly as much as I do (I have two jobs, because she complained about money so much before). Because she could not function in this country when we met, I took on the role of protector and provider for her, much like a father. She was very dependent on me the first few years of our marriage, and she still has me do any kind of paperwork for her that comes in the mail, but that is all the help she needs now. As crazy as it sounds, I watched her grow to independence, kind of like a parent watching a child develop. During that time, I developed unconditional love for this woman. <BR> She maintains that I am a very good man and she loves me, but she is not in love with me. I on the other hand, love her unconditionally. On the day I found out about her cheating on me, I was ready to forgive her after a few hours. I'm afraid most of you will think I am stupid but I can't help it. I need to cut this short because I am at work and I don't want to write a novel. If anyone can give me a solution to this heartbreaking problem, please enlighten me. If you need more information before you can formulate an opinion, please ask. I think I really could go on and on with the details. Thank you.<BR>

First of all, I'm sorry for where your marriage is at...and second, <B>Welcome to Marriage Builders!</B><P>You really need to read the material here..not just come here for instant answers. It doesn't work that way.<P>You say that you 'caught' her...not good. You are on code 2 pursuit mode, and she is evading. Stop that. Seriously. Your instincts in this regard will be your undoing.<P>If she is involved with PAs it has much more to do with not having her emotional needs met, than some physical thing, like you might assume.<P>The loves, in love thing is alienspeak to me...makes no sense whatsoever. There are 5 kinds of love...she's telling you that she does not have all 5 for you.<P>You need to figure this out on your own, friend...no one here can assess your situation like you can...trouble is that you are heartbroken, and don't realize the Love Busters you do to her...yes, tell us more...we can get to the root of this, and if you are willing to make the most profound changes you ever thought possible...then you could entice her to come back at some point...but pack your lunch...its an all day job, and then some! God bless you, and be strong. -Mike<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 25, 2001).]

A Good Man,<P>You and I have some things in common. My W is an emmigrant too - and we married when she was 19 and had the dependency problem to some extent as well. She did speak very well in English - and was attending college here when I met her - so that's a little different.<P>Are you about to leave work?<P>I'll reread your post and try to give a longer reply in a few minutes.<P>-AD<BR>

Thanks Mike..I have been kind of confounded with her "lovespeak" also. The best way I can explain it to you is that she says she loves me because I am the father of her children and we have been through a lot together, but she is not in love with me romantically. She says that when we have sex she feels like she is letting me win, so obviously I have really made her mad with my sarcasm/condescension in the past. <BR> Luckily, she says she noticed the changes and has been amazed. But why did she continue the cheating? My best guess is that this extra-marital affair started before I made my sweeping changes and continued while she was still deciding if I was changing for good. I guess her relationship with the other man just elevated while I was getting better, albeit too late. I don't want to revert to the old smart-aleck I used to be, although it is tempting. She says she wants to stay in contact with while we are separated because she doesn't want the kids to see us hate each other. <BR> FYI, the other man kicked her out of his house when he found out that we are not separated,like she told him. He told her emphatically that it is over, and she is going through a little pain from that, and maybe her emotions are getting the best of her right now.<BR> The dilemma I have is that she wants me to help her financially after she leaves. Not alimony, because we are not divorced. Of course, if the kids are with her, I will do everything I can to make sure they are taken care of. But I think her dependence on me for everything has gone too far and I think I need her to really grow up, without the security net I provide. Maybe then she will see what she is missing and learn to appreciate me a little more. Who knows? What do you think?

Thanks for your reply AD, I will be at work until late tonight working at this desk. So maybe I can help you with your experience also. By the way, is your wife of Latin descent? If we both are having problems with women of the same culture, we might be able to help each other even more.<BR>-Jamie

A Good Man,<P>Is there anyway the children could stay with you? If she moves out, chances are the affair may begin again - I don't know if that is the best environment for the children.<P>About the affair - It started for a reason - something was missing and she went elsewhere to find it. Before jumping into her leaving and the possible divorce, is counseling something that you both could do together? I will tell you that it is a great thing and will help you both out tremendously.<P>Also realize that the affair most likely did start a while back - When you began to change yourself - to better yourself, she was probably too far into the affair to just quit (kind of like an addiction). So even though you may have confused her by your "new" actions and maybe even rekindled some of the love, the affair was really throwing her for a loop. People are funny - even though they know what they are doing may be wrong on so many levels, if it feels good, they will make all kinds of excuses for it.<P>The part about "loving you but not being in-love with you" is so common, I wish I had a dime for everytime it has been written here on this site. It is par for the course for the spouse who is/has been unfaithful. And in my opinion it is simply a cop-out.<P>Counseling would be my advice BEFORE she moves out. Right now the love she had for you may be a tiny little flame. There is a chance that if done correctly you could begin to fan the flame back into a raging fire, but without someone to help you both through this time, the odds of you accidentally snuffing out the tiny flame is greater than that of you making it grow. Marriage counseling is not something to fear - I personally think it is something everyone should go to, even those in "healthy marriages"...<P>Good luck and God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

A Good Man,<P>I typed about 20 minutes on a post on this thread and then we had a power failure. Sorry. I'll try to reply in pieces.<P>YOU CAN WIN THIS! YOU HAVE AN EXCELLENT CHANCE OF SAVING YOUR MARRIAGE. Sorry to shout, but I wanted to start with an encouraging word. You are actually not in too bad of shape.<P>First, I recommend a book - "Love must be tough", by Dobson. Don't let her read it though, it's just for the betrayed spouse. I don't remember everything from the book, but two things stick in my mind. <BR>1) The straying spouse often feels trapped. As long as you are chasing her, she will run away. You need to "let the bird out of the cage". Only when she is free can she truely love you. That's hard to do, but I can tell you more about my situation in another post - and it seems to be working for me.<BR>2) There is usually an underlying lack of respect in the relationship. Your W would not do this to you if she respected and valued you. From what you wrote, I think this does apply in your case. She takes you for granted. You can change that. You should not forgive too quickly. You should try to develop a frame of mind that you CAN live without her. Try not to go too far with that - to actually decide that you want her to go away. Once you start down that path, it is easy to go too far. I had to struggle with that sometimes.<P>I'll write more in another post.<P>-AD

A Good Man,<P>If you want to communicate off-forum, you can reach me at AbandonedDad@yahoo.com. I haven't been checking that address, but I will start to do so now. Probably it is better to stay on the forum because you will get more feedback from others.<P>I think your situation is a lot like mine. No, my W is not latin, she is ... well... hard to describe. On the one hand, she is Russian. On the other, she is Afghan. She's a very complicated but wonderful person. She was born in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation (or shortly before). She saw all kinds of terrible things - was the sole survivor of a massacre at the age of 5 or 6, spend a year or so in an orphanage - with lice, no shoes, inadequate clothes and heat, not enough food - the whole thing. She was adopted by a Russian couple, abused by her adoptive Mom. Suffered racial predudice in her own family, and by some miracle came to the US to go to college. Anyway, she's not latin.<P>Is your W's OM latin too?<P>When I read your initial post, I had so much I wanted to say to you - but I'm having trouble formulating it. And I typed a very long post which was lost in the power failure - so now I have a hard time remembering what I have actually succeeding in posting. I'm here, man. Maybe we can help each other.<P>-AD<BR>

Abandoned Dad and So Tired,<P> I was just reading a lot of the posts from the board and I stumbled onto Dr. Dobson's information about "setting the spouse free." I am going to try that and see what happens. I am going to set her free. <BR> By the way, I have asked her about counseling and she says that she suggested it a long time ago and I refused (stupid me, I couldn't imagine what I had done wrong and thought it was all her fault). I think right now she is really testing me to see if I can scrape up any dignity and stop the begging and pleading for her to stay. I know she still loves me because she is always telling me how special I am for her and that she wants us to stay in touch all the time. She even says she knows she will miss me because she is used to seeing me all the time. She basically said she just needs her space for a while to "find who she is" and decide if she really wants to be with me.<BR> Often times, when she talks about leaving me, she starts crying and I like to think it is because she feels sad about losing me, although it is her making the choice. I think the excerpt from Dr. Dobson's book will really do the trick. She will be very surprised to see me really set her free. When I start to show in the coming weeks that it doesn't bother me as much, I think she will really be surprised. The only problem is that I am afraid I might have tears in my eyes when I say my version of the excerpt from Dr. Dobson's book. Say a prayer for me.<BR> I really believe now that there is hope because she just told me last night she wanted to leave and as late as today(a few hours ago) I was crying and begging for her to stay. <BR> I then discovered this website. I am so thankful that I discovered this website while this problem between us is relatively young. I am also thankful for such caring people as yourselves who are willing to offer an opinion that might help me. I truly offer my heart-felt thanks.<BR> I am thinking that this might take a few months or maybe a year (who knows, she might not even move out). I think the excerpt from Dr. Dobson's book is really a Godsend. I'll keep you posted.

Well, now...you just saved yourself a couple of thousand dollars, more heartache, and much time. Not bad, all things considered!<P>Just be careful how you go about applying it all. Tough love is tough on you mostly! Realize that you are not getting your ENs met, either. It might be wise to consider that she has told you pretty much everything that you need to work on, even if it was in alienspeak.<P>She has 'phileo' love for you...a brotherly sort of friendship...make sure you maintain that...its too easy to destroy that seeking to restore the rromantic love...in that respect, it does not work like it did when you went through this the first time...in fact, that would be a major LB now! (No 'courting' just yet.) I'd say that a vigorous plan A was out. I have been in what I call Plan A/B. I do not contact XW (she live a block away!) at all, but when she contacts me...I am pleasant and agreeable (A component), but I always end it first (B component). I have noticed that it is getting to be a race sometimes! When she comes here, it is a little bit of a mixed bag...there have been LBs both ways, and progress made, too.<P>This is an ever changing process, find out what works best, and keep it up.<P>It sounds like you are doing well...I wish you the best! -Mike

A Good Man,<P>In reference to the letter or speech that Dobson recommended, I don't know if it is neccesary. I didn't do that, I just cut down on the phone calls, elliminated the uninvited visits, and stopped crying and begging. It helped. Also, at first, when I was visiting her, I very consiously focused on the baby - and not on her. Your kids need you. If she moves out, be prepared to visit them briefly every day if W allows it. If she doesn't allow it, you may have to do something to force it. As I said already, I found it helpful to focus on the baby and not on her when I made these visits. I didn't try to touch her or talk about the relationship. Later, things improved. Things have improved a lot and it seems likely that we will get back together.<P>Do you speak Spanish? Is that an issue? I asked before if the other man was latin. Is he? In our case, my wife has an emotional affair only (not physical) with a guy back in eastern europe. Language and culture are part of the attraction.<P>I have more to say. I'll get around to it soon <P>-AD

Abandoned Dad,<P> No, the OM is not latin; he is a white American just like me. Unlike me, however, he is 45! She is 26, and I am 30. She says he clearly ended it, and obviously he hurt her emotionally by the way he ended it (kicked her butt out). She says she doesn't care if I kick his a** but I am going to deny my primal instincts and take the moral high road. <BR> What exactly is "Plan A?" I have seen it mentioned here a lot but I am new on this website and I don't have all the terminology yet. Thanks.<P>-Jamie

<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>What are Plan A and Plan B?</A><p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 25, 2001).]

A Good Man,<P>Sorry I've been away for a bit. We had another power failure. There was a T-storm here.<P>I read on somebody else's thread about a situation with a latin girlfriend. Maybe you can find it if you search for it. It was within the last week, I think. On that thread, it was mentioned that latins expect a big age difference. 10 years is considered normal. The guy who was posting said he was 10 years older than his GF and wanted to know if it could work. I think the topic was something like "10 years...". Now it happens that my W is much younger than me. (about 20 years). Probably now, you'll start thinking i'm some kind of monster. Oh well. She's my first and only love, but she's much younger than me and that is a major issue now.<P>So, what I'm saying - is that if it really is true that Latin women expect the man to be older - that may have been part of the attraction. I don't know if it helps. What the standard answer is - from the Harleys - is that you need to find out what she saw in him - what Emotional Needs (EN's) he was meeting better than you. You wrote that you were controlling etc. before. Maybe he just treated her more respectfully - as a mature woman - and she liked that.<P>Well, what I wanted to say to you before - and don't think I got out - is that it sounds like you are a compliant person and she is a demanding person. You wrote that you took a second job because she wanted more money. Now, if she divorses you - and doesn't get the OM, she will have less money. So, that works in your favor. But, I wonder if you have thought about how compliant you are - how hard you try to please her. Do you tell her what YOU want - or do you always do everything her way. I was very compliant with my wife - and I think it led to loss of respect. Strangely enough, she seems to like me better now that I am more assertive - now that I point out how she hurts me sometimes. I think that is essential.<P>What say, good man?<P>-AD

More...<P>My counselor told me "I don't see you in this marriage at all - it is all about her." That was his way of saying that I had never asserted what I want - and just went along with her. He had previously had the same problem in his own marriage - the "whatever you want, dear - don't worry about me" syndrome. It wont work. She can't love you if you don't exist for her - if you don't reveal yourself - both what you want and do not want - what you like and do not like. It's strange, but whenever you do everything to please somebody - they begin to disrespect you and even dislike you. The "Boundaries" books can help with this - as well as the book "Give and Take".<P>-AD

<BR> News flash. I just got off the phone with W and I read her my version of Dr. Dobson's excerpt from the book. She said it was beautiful, really beautiful and thanked me. She says she went to talk to a lawyer today (I already knew this) and she thinks the best thing is for us to be just legally seperated for a year before we get divorced. She said we could proceed with the divorce if nothing changes in our relationship. Although it is killing me and I kept wanting to ask her to try to work it out, I played it cool. I didn't act like anything was bothering me. She didn't act too surprised because I think she is hesitant to believe me about setting her free, but I am going to stick to this mantra.<BR> One thing we realized is because of our work schedules and financial situation (we just bought a new car), it is going to be a while before she actually moves out. She even jokingly said, "I probably won't even get to move out until next year." But for now, everything is going as she has planned as far as I am concerned. She is leaving and I am going to have to deal with it. But I am going to show her it doesn't bother me and I am just going to stay positive and act as if this is the best for me.<BR> One interesting caveat: The times we have had sex or she was attracted to me was when I acted like I had let my worries go/didn't give a damn anymore. It wasn't really that hard to get her back those times either (the last time was about two weeks ago). I was just nice to her and acted like everything was ok. To top it off, I only had to exhibit this behavior for one full day to get her after me again. So now, I am going to do it in overdrive. We shall see what happens. If nothing else, I will be a better person and have a better outlook.<BR> Another tidbit: right now she has a plethora of emotions that she is using me to take it out on. She feels guilty for hurting me (about the affair), guilty for lying to me all that time, sad for the fact that the OM hates her because she lied to him and told him we were already seperated (he told her just two weeks ago he wanted to end the affair because he didn't really believe we were), worried because I hold his career in my hands (he works in the government also, and adultery is not kosher), and scared about being on her own when and if she moves out.<BR> I really think if she can see me being the man she wants everything will work out in time. I am really going to need your thoughts and prayers as I try to be positive, sweet and encouraging to her over the next few weeks or months. It is going to be so hard to pull this off because right now it is killing me. But I love her so much and I know she deserves better than what I have given her during our marriage (although she wants almost complete control, I think I have been the primary controller, because of her constant dependency on me). I refuse to be sarcastic and condescending to her anymore.<BR> I just discovered this website about seven hours ago and mentally I am in much better shape because of it. This morning I was a wretched mess. Actually, two hours before I discovered this website we had a terrible fight on the phone because I threatened her with taking the kids, moving across the country and leaving her destitute. She ended the conversation by screaming "OK, if this is the way you want it, I hate you!" and hung up.<BR> I am sure that my new approach is kind of overwhelming for her because it came so quickly. Hopefully, in the coming weeks she will see that I am sticking to this attitude. I think she will realize that it is best for our boys also (ages 3 and 2). We'll see. I'm going to stop babbling now.<P>-Jamie

Jamie,<P>Going wildly back and forth between almost opposite approaches is probably pretty typical for your situation. I know I did. I was trying to keep her - then I was suggesting that she move out a week ahead of schedule. Then I was accepting - then I was spitting on her (most shameful thing I've done) and slamming the door on the way out. Try to settle down and stay the course. 7 hours is just a moment in this.<P>Yeah, threatening to take the kids and cut her off won't make her love you, but the effects of that threat will wear off - if you consistently tell her that you won't do it.<P>-AD

Hi Jamie.<P>My H left only three weeks ago. I also read the Dobson extract and thought it was something I needed to say. It makes a lot of sense, and since my H told me he felt trapped, I felt that he needed to hear those words. So I emailed him. He had wanted his space, so there hasn't been any real communication between us for the whole time, and it took him a week to reply, via email. He thanked me.<P>I didn't reply, but the next day he phoned me to find out if I got his email, and then next time I saw him, his "wall" was definetely down. So I too will keep trying to outwardly let him go as much as I can. It does seem to make a difference. He even tried to have an actual conversation with me, so at least that has improved. I wish you the best of luck.

Nina,<P> Thanks for responding...I think it will work also. When I instinctively tried it in the very recent past, it worked. Then I found out about the affair, and everything that I thought was building went upside down. I really don't see how she can change her feelings on the drop of a dime, but she does. Who knows?<P>-Jamie

Well, I don't even know where to start. I am somewhat in a similar situation as Abandoned Dad and A Good Man. Only the roles where switched in our marriage. My wife was the American and I am the immigrant. (I mean I was. I became a citizen in 1999) I was born in the northwestern part of Romania known as Transylvania (no, I am not a vampire in case you are wondering ) I met my wife while working in Budapest, Hungary, just after I got out of college. She spent there a few months with me, then came back and I followed her a few months later. It was hard in the beginning, because everybody speculated around her, that I am only opportunistic and want to use her to get a green card. This was not the case. We truly loved each other at that point. So we persuaded every possible legal avenue for me to stay in the contry and not have to get married to her. We thought we could just date each other for a while and see what will happen. Unfortunately, the only way I could stay, was to get married. So we did -secretly. Only her sister and her sister's boyfriend knew about it for almost two years. Then she finally told everybody in her family. Up until today I have a feeling that her family and friends still think of me that I am an opportunistic pig and took advantage of her. Let me tell you, that was not the case. I gave up everything I treasured: family, friends, heritage just to come here and be with her. And I did that because I loved her and I still do. Sometimes I feel, I was the one who got used and thrown away like a towel after I wasn't needed anymore.<BR>Sorry, I got a little carried away with my story. As far as what to do in your relationship I don't know what to tell you. Everybody's situation is unique in a way. Nobody could tell me what is the right thing to do for me and I can not tell anyone else what to do, either. Onlything I can do is to tell you what worked for me and what not. Then you can gather all the information from my and other's posts and customize yourself a plan that would help you cope with your situation. I hope this makes sense to you.<BR>When my wife walked out on me, I could not understand what is happening and why is it happening. I tried to call her, e-mail her or talk to her friends just to find out what is going on. Doing this, I managed to turn everybody away from me, including my wife. After a few weeks passed by and I settled down somewhat, we finally had a chance to talk about our troubled relationship. I got to discover that she has seen everything different during our seven year marriage than I did. It was really shocking to me. I thought I knew her, but I was wrong. I tried pleading with her, but that got me nowhere. I am at the point where I realize I have to let her go freely. This is the hardest thing to accept and to deal with. My mind tells me to let her go, but my heart doesn't want to let her go. Therefor I still have a lots of ups and downs. However, I am not talking to her about this things. I am trying to be civil and casual around her. It is really hard. I feel sorry for my poor friends, because when I can't take it anymore, I just download on them. Thanks God, they are still supporting me. I am trying to keep myself occupied, so I don't think about her and her boyfriend. I don't know what tomorrow will bring, but I am trying not to even care about it. I am trying to live for the moment. Living from the past doesn't help, just gets me depressed. I can't live for the future because I don't know what's in it for me. I am fine now, but I know it won't last forever. Soon as I'll go home, I will get depressed again probably. Loneliness is my worst enemy. But, I will come out of it again. it is just like a roller coaster: never ending ups and downs.<BR>Sorry for making it this long, I just felt the need to vent. It helps me. Thank you for your time for reading my post.<P>Take care.<P>Tacsi <BR>