I do not know where to begin. I'm not doing very well today. Since I have moved out, I have spent time at home just hanging out with the kids and doing some good, serious talking with my H. Most of the talk has been pretty productive, and I was a little encouraged that maybe being apart for a while would be good for us. Don't get me wrong. I was still solid in insisting that I deserve to be treated gently, but he was acting pretty sincere about his desire to work on himself while I'm gone, and I thought that was a pretty good sign. <P>Anyway, last night was a REAL toughy. He read what I had written to "boheme13" and pretty much related what I had written to our situation, so he asked me if I needed to talk about his affair. There were really only two questions that were plaguing me, and I asked them. STUPID ME. Why did I do that? It was nothing but trigger time, and now I just feel so empty and ugly and sad and undesireable that it's hard to concentrate. I admire the fact that he was honest with me in a scary situation, but GOD, I just hate to hear about him being with another woman. I feel like this will never end--this hurting will never stop!! I would give just about anything to feel all safe and loved and loveable right now, know what I mean?<P>So, here's what I wonder. What good does it do us to stay faithful? What's the point? Look what it got me!! NOTHING. Why couldn't he be faithful to ME? What in the name of God did I ever do to him? YUCK--I hate, hate, HATE this!! And after all these years, when I was thinking of him and longing for him, and he wasn't thinking of me and loving me, I just wonder, did he ever really love me? Did it die THAT quickly--within a couple years? Then why did he string me on? Why not just let me go ten years ago? And when he did come back, why in the WORLD did he think he could ever treat me with anything but loving kindness for the rest of my life, after the literal sh*t I have been through for him? How in the world did he figure that somehow he had the right to scream at me? I deserve a dozen red roses a day for the rest of my life, because I WAS FAITHFUL!!! <P>Now, he has the balls to say he has finally figured out what love is, but in his next breath, he's upset with me because I want to have some furniture in the house while I'm living there. What does he want?? Does he want me to just believe him because he "says so"? Does he really think I'll believe he has gotten his raging under control because he behaves for a couple days?? Does he want me to live in a house with only a cot? Will the day EVER come when thinks of my best interest BEFORE and AHEAD OF his? What kind of man wants his wife to live with only a cot, because HE is afraid? Isn't that part of what mature love is--thinking of the other person's best interest, even sometimes ahead of our own? Sh*t, he is the one who had affairs throughout our whole marriage, dumped me and rejected me for another woman, came home to give me the cold shoulder, left me over the holidays, made promises he didn't keep, and FOUGHT with me about my list of what would make me feel loved!! God, how lucky is he that I even made him the stupid list, and he resisted!! Does that sound like "LOVE" to you? <P>Okay, breathe, CJ. Breathe. Now, here's where I need your help, everyone. I can walk through this dark time and get through it okay (I think), and I can wrestle with the tears and loneliness alright too (I think), but I need your opinions. I thought it would be appropriate to have part of this separation be "treat CJ right" time; meaning that no matter WHO I would end up with, it would be someone who would demonstrate the ability to consistently have a mature, loving relationship and treat me with respect and stuff. This part is pretty clear. I want to be with someone who will think of me as a prize, and who is willing to put in time and effort on my behalf. But, since it has been a while, the part I can't see very clearly is this: is that reasonable? Am I being demanding or selfish or healthy? Is that the way it is SUPPOSED to be, and all these years I just got used to being mistreated? <P>My head hurts. Be gentle on me--I'm a feeler, and my feelings are just yucky right now. <P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Hi CJ... I'm a little lost on your story because I've been out of commission myself for some time. <P>Anyway, you're separated now? Do you have a separation plan? Have you read the book <I>Should I Say or Go: How Controlled Separation Can Save Your Marriage</I> by Lee Raffel? It's good in that it gives you a plan to work from in the different areas of a relationship.<P>It sounds like you have expectations of your H - well, is this right or wrong? I really don't know... all I do know is that expecations have set me up for pain and failure in the past... You deserve to be treated right and to be loved but maybe you'll never get that from any earthly human. How is your faith? Your separation needs to be a time where CJ feels good about CJ regardless of how people are treating you including your H (speaking to myself here also). Be kind to yourself and if others aren't kind to you, that's a boundary - withdraw yourself... don't expect them to be kind. If they are kind, give of yourself more... reward that type of behavior with NOT withdrawing... and trying to meet the emotional needs of the person being kind to you (or honest, or gentle or whatever the "word" may be).<P>Take one day at a time friend... in the meantime, I have some catching up to do on your story.<P>Cheers!<BR>Nicole<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

I'm not sure I am qualified to give useful advice, but I have to take issue with something you wrote here, CJ. You asked for replies to be gentle and I'm going to be as gentle as I can.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>What good does it do us to stay faithful? What's the point? Look what it got me!! NOTHING.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You've got a heckuva lot more than nothing. You've got your self respect. You've got a clear conscience. You've got enough strength to stand up for your belief in a respectful relationship. You also have my respect and that of countless posters and lurkers here. That's a lot of something there.<P>Now, on to your question.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I want to be with someone who will think of me as a prize, and who is willing to put in time and effort on my behalf. But, since it has been a while, the part I can't see very clearly is this: is that reasonable? Am I being demanding or selfish or healthy? Is that the way it is SUPPOSED to be, and all these years I just got used to being mistreated?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Personally, I think it's reasonable and healthy to want this and to expect your mate to deliver on these things. Your comment that he is lucky you made him a list is very telling, I think. I would have sacrificed important body parts to get a list like that from my xw.<P>I'm so sorry for the pain you're feeling. I hope that you find relief soon.<P>--<BR>o2bsane@hotmail.com<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>I do not know where to begin. I'm not doing very well today. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>I'm sooo sorry you are feeling all this....<P><B>I deserve a dozen red roses a day for the rest of my life, because I WAS FAITHFUL!!!</B><P>Yes, girl, you do!!!<P><B>Will the day EVER come when thinks of my best interest BEFORE and AHEAD OF his? </B><P>No. There won't EVER be a day when he will do this. Stop expecting it.<P><B>Isn't that part of what mature love is--thinking of the other person's best interest, even sometimes ahead of our own?</B><P>KEY WORD: MATURE!!! It's all about maturity and expectations. You EXPECTED him to be mature because, what....he's a grown up maybe? BUT HE's NOT MATURE!! <P>If you think of him as if he were 19 years old, then his behaviour would be just about right. You wouldn't EXPECT anything different and you wouldn't be hurt when you didn't get it. Guess what.....emotionally, he probably IS 19 years old!!! Look back on his life and see if there wasn't something that happened to him way back when that stunted him emotionally somehow.<P>I did this with my H and WOW! I finally figured it out. It hurts me that he is still functioning like an adolescent, but there is NOTHING I can do about it. I DO deserve a mature man to be with. No question about it. <P><B>I thought it would be appropriate to have part of this separation be "treat CJ right" time; meaning that no matter WHO I would end up with, it would be someone who would demonstrate the ability to consistently have a mature, loving relationship and treat me with respect and stuff. This part is pretty clear. I want to be with someone who will think of me as a prize, and who is willing to put in time and effort on my behalf. But, since it has been a while, the part I can't see very clearly is this: is that reasonable?</B><P>YES!!! I think so...<P>When I came to this realization, I started a list of what I will look for in my next relationship. Now I KNOW I'm not gonna get everything on that list. But I am prioritizing it and there will be some point where I will draw the line....above this line are the things I NEED!! Below this line are the things I want, but don't have to have.<P>This may not be very romantic, but I am gonna try to use my head a bit more the next time around. I am dead even on the thinking/feeling scale, except when it comes to romance...then I fly off the "F" scale!! HA!<P><B>Am I being demanding or selfish or healthy?</B><P>Healthy. You try lookin' around a the marriages that are thriving....THRIVING....and you'll see respect, love, maturity, unselfishness, etc....all those things YOU poured into your relationship and never got back. <P><B>Is that the way it is SUPPOSED to be, and all these years I just got used to being mistreated? </B><P>Yup...you and me alike!The reason it feels like we are demanding them now is because no one listened to our needs for so long....<P>You are right on in my book! Thanks, CJ, for sharing how you're feeling. It helps confirm in me what I've recently figured out as well. <P>Keep the faith!<BR>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited July 26, 2001).]

Wow - CJ - <P>A lot has happened around your house...<P>YES you deserve a dozen roses - send yourself one a day for the next month!!! I'd suggest you send him the bill - but that's pretty imature too...<P>BEing faithful get YOU the rewards - but probably not from your H who is getting the GUILTY award - in large doses (served up by his conscience hourly - whether he's smart enough to realize it or not).<P>Honey - he isn't mature enough to meet your expectations - and unfortunately most men in his position are not. They are thinking only of themselves - no matter how much they SAY they love their wonderfully near perfect spouses. JERKS just aren't worth the time of day - but he's YOUR jerk - and I shouldn't be calling him names (that's your priviledge!!! )<P>He won't take care of you - you have to take care of you! It isn't that he doesn't want to - doesn't intend to - or shouldn't - - - I really believe there are men out there who just don't have what it takes to put someone else first. (Before someone flames me for being sexist - I also believe there are women out there who are the same kind of selfish inconsiderate dolts - I just happen to be a woman married to that kind of man!)<P>If you are living without furniture - either purchase some, rent some, or borrow some from your home - IT IS ALL HALF YOURS!!! (If he objects - borrow a chainsaw - it works in the movies.) <P>I really don't have a lot of GOOD worthwhile advice - but I can empathize with you - I'm THERE. I understand how inconsiderate a H can be. CJ - take care of you!!! Take care of your kids and concentrate on being a mom for a while. <P>Hugs and blessings ~ Jan

ooops - forgot to add something<P>What you are looking for is not only healthy - it's what you deserve to GET...<P>You should make a list of your expectations - and that should be something that you work on with your H - before you get back together. He probably REALLY - honestly - has NOT a CLUE what it is he should be doing. Maybe a counselor could help - The Harleys???<P>Good luck!!!

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Hang in there girl, remember the grape juice. <BR>Jax.

CJ,<P>The intensity of what you're feeling seems to be a short term reaction to the triggers. As you know, the pain of some of these things persists a long time, but diminishes over time <B>if</B> your relationship gets better. You've had some relapses in your recovery from the pain of what he did to you, but protect yourself and it will get better. Whether it gets better with him or without remains to be determined.<P>I'm glad that you had a good time with the kids tonight. Good for you! I went to Jurassic Park III with mine today. Mindless entertainment instead of heavy thinking is good at times.<P>Based on your post to boheme13 you have a good handle on what you need. I guess there's a good reason that the Harleys start with LBs even before ENs.<P>It's good that you're talking to your H, but you should not go back to "business as usual" except for sleeping a couple of blocks away. Doing so will be like those spouses who Plan A for awhile, then LB, then Plan A, then Plan B, then Plan A, and on and on. You have to be consistent IMO in your behavior. You may not be in Plan B, but you're not still in exactly Plan A either.<P>I suspect that he will want to revert himself to "business as usual" and expect you to do the same. Rageaholics do whatever they feel like at the moment, then expect no lasting consequences.<P>In a different way, it reminds me of my FOO. They were conflict avoiders, and even avoiders of all emotion, rather than rageaholics. But there was the same assumption that if you were there it was ok. No recognition that a relationship takes work, sharing, etc., not just physical presence.<P>Years later with my own family, I wound up insecure when physically away from them, but feeling ok as long as they were around, even when I was too busy to have adequate time with them. I was blindsided when we had our marital problems, taking the relationship for somewhat for granted. This is a simplified and not very adequate description, but the point is that people are sometimes really blind about what they are doing to their relationships, and about what is normal.<P>Unless you stick to your guns about counseling for him, filling out LB questionairres, or whatever you decide to require, I suspect that he will be confirmed in his opinion that nothing is really wrong, he doesn't need to change.<P>I didn't intend to write so much, but that's what I think.<P>Unfortunately, you must stick to your guns and take care of you, until he proves that he can.<P>Hope this helps a little, I know it's not easy.<P>Steve<p>[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited July 27, 2001).]

GREAT advice Steve - can I take it too??? <P>I know you weren't talking to me - but I was eves dropping on the conversation!!! <P>CJ - think we could CLONE him???? LOL <P>Or maybe we can think of a new scientific way to implant the 'intelligent male' DNA into our misinformed H's... <P>I'm TRYING <P>

CJ, once again everyone else has already said pretty much what I was going to say, but I suppose a little reiteration can't hurt...<P>Would you rather be the BS or the WS? I think it's interesting that Paul says "the immoral man sins against his <I>own</I> body." (I Corinthians 6:18, my emphasis) The damage done to the BS is very large and very real, but infidelity is probably even more destructive to the WS. Similarly, I believe that being faithful is something done more for yourself than for your spouse.<P>It's only within the last month or so that I have realized that my wife's behavior could be seen as a delayed adolescent rebellion. Like Mrs.O said, your husband (like my wife) probably had some aspect of his emotional development arrested somewhere along the way. Expecting mature behavior from him is not reasonable until he goes through the maturation process.<P>As Steve suggested, moving out doesn't inherently establish the boundaries you need. I think it would be appropriate for you to refuse to talk about your relationship <I>at all</I> until you can do it in the presence of a counselor and establish some ground rules <I>agreed on with the counselor</I>.<P>It appears to me that all your feelings are right on target for an emotionally healthy, hurting human being. Hang in there! Ride the wave! (Maybe think about getting a better surfboard.)<BR>

FaithfulWife:<P>Just ran across some words of wisdom I had stashed somewhere in my computer a while back....seems like they apply to your situation:<P><B>Far too many women behave more like beggars than choosers in the dating game. For them, dating is a process of hoping-to-be-selected rather than an opportunity to select.<P>Real love is a long marination of qualities having to do with respect, admiration, appreciation, character, affection, cooperation, honor and sacrifice. <P>You are ultimately the architect of your life. Some raw materials might have been left out – or damaged along the way – but you are still the architect of your own life.<P>When it comes to long-term, committed relationships: Love is not enough. There are issues of honor, respect, mutuality, sacrifice, acceptance, supportiveness, similarity of life values and morality. They don’t come without struggling and striving, but they are worth it.<P>The only way to become “worth it” in our own lives is to believe in some kind of <I>universal inalienable right</I> to respect, honor, commitment, caring and love – and then to earn it in our own minds by our courageous efforts on our own behalf in just about every aspect of our lifes: work, relationships and love. Brave choices. Brave actions. Self-esteem earned.</B><P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P>

In some dark deep recesses of my mind, I expected my H to have an affair. Why? Because I was the second woman that he had slept with and the first was a prostitute when he was about 18, and it didn't go well. He confessed this to me years ago. So all along I knew he had something to prove (though in my opinion his next choice was no better than a prostitute - and I have GOOD reson for this).<P>Immaturity? You bet! The grass is always greener, and all that!<P>Take care!<BR>