I need help on this one because I'm very distraught about what has happened...here goes...<P>I'm 29, she is 24...we were married in October (21st, to be exact) and she is the absolute light of my life. Don't get me wrong...we are basically complete opposites, and we broke up three times before marriage, so things aren't perfect. But, she has always brought out the best in me.<P>On July 2, after several weeks of distance between us, both psychologically and physically because of our schedules, we had a discussion concerning what was wrong. This was when she told me for the first time that she "didn't know if she felt it enough for me to maintain a marriage."<P>What 'it' is, I don't know, but we had what may amount to our final conversation today when she said that she hasn't ever been in love with me...not now, not before the wedding, not ever. You see, this all became a real issue because she spends more time with her single friends that she ever has with me and I finally got the nerve to tell her how much it hurt my feelings. Basically, the greatest sin that I've committed in our marriage is wanting to spend more time with the person I love the most.<P>At any rate, I don't know what to think. In her mind, she is convinced that she has never loved me and has been "in this long enough to know that it won't change." (We've been together since February 11, 1998.) But, we have a mutual friend that I have talked to who said that she and my wife broke down me and our friend's boyfriend and our friend knows without a doubt that Sarah was in love with me.<P>My wife would pass herself off as a great actress if she could, having hidden these "true" feelings for over three years, but I think of one thing. When you look at a picture, the eyes don't lie. You can see sorrow, despair, hopelessness...and yes, happiness. When I look at her in pictures of the two of us, I see love and happiness. Maybe I'm just grasping, but I think I can tell.<P>My head says to let her go, that I should have left any of the previous three times. But my heart won't let me. I love my wife more than my own life and would do anything for her...even now, even with all of the pain her actions have caused. I'm not a perfect husband, I know that. But I have never laid a hand on her out of anger, have never yelled at her, and have always, to the best of my ability, wanted to make her feel loved, secure, and taken care of. Perhaps that is a problem, as she told her older brother that she doesn't like being taken care of.<P>Problem is, my dad took care of my mom and I so that is the only model I have to follow. Plus, my heart is so sincere because of one incident just over three years ago.<P>You see, my wife and I began dating as a way to get me over a previous relationship (I know, classic rebound). But about two months in, as I was still struggling with getting over my ex-girlfriend but slowly falling for my wife, she made an ultimatum to me. She told me that she was falling in love with me but couldn't give me any more until I got over my ex. She didn't want to get hurt. At that time (it was about 3 a.m.) a glow came over her and I saw God for the first time. She was an angel sent to me, my gift from the Lord. I have always believed that and that is what makes it so hard to let her leave without a fight.<P>We are both stubborn, me to hold on, her to leave. And, she feels counselling is worthless for us...I mean, we did go once, but she went for me, not the marriage or herself, so it did nothing. She told me she'd go again because "we can drag this out for as long as I want." I didn't say she didn't have a cold streak...<P>I don't know what to do. I WILL NOT make the move to divorce...if she forces my hand, I have no choice. But I won't call a lawyer. Any advice from anyone who has been through this is appreciated. Right now, I feel like my life is worthless and a failure because even though I know they are her issues, I can do nothing about them. I love her with all of me and can't just walk away. But should I? Please help...anyone.

My friend,<BR> As I was reading different posts for soul food I read yours and could not hold myself from replying. Your case is so similar to mine! At the end of my relationship with my wife I was the monster, for real. But with the help of professionals I identified some issues that are only her fault. <BR> I also thought that God put this lady in my path and in many instances I am convinced that there was divine intervention but we are mortal humans. Like you, me and future to be ex-wife, are opposites. I was always thinking on pleasing her and trying to help her love for me to mature. She never realized that after the wedding we were ONE in body and soul. My wife kept and emotional and approval dependence on her parents. That dependence prevented her from ever loving me as a wife. For almost eight years I felt like the boyfriend that visited her before we got married. <BR> Again, I was wrong and the bad guy at the end but some behaviors initiate some bad reactions. Believe me, no marriage survives with the in-laws in between, even more when your wife thinks that that is the model to follow. I asked her for independence, to create our own history and traditions but she always thought about her own family to be the blueprint for happiness. Well, so much for it! Here we are, separated, just waiting for the final D day.<BR> Sorry if this reply does not help. I am rowing in a boat next to yours. I wish you a better destiny! I will save a prayer for you and everyone in this forum. God bless and take care<BR>

No1, I will...<P> It's amazing that so many of us are going through such similar things. I've only been married for 8 months, but separated for 2. My H and I are in different states, he went back to school, I went to my parents.<BR> <BR> I receieved the "not in love" with you speech, and was told many different, confusing things. It has been devastating to me to try and come to terms with my H's behavior and the impending death of our marriage.<BR> <BR> I don't doubt that my H ever loved me. And I agree about people not being able to fake it for so long. You can see it in their eyes when you look back and i bet you can recall many instances that convinced you of that. I don't think that any of us would get married to someone who showed any hesitation about what they where feeling. We married them because we were convinced they felt the same way through their actions and their words.<BR> <BR> Unfortunately, I don't have any great words of wisdom about how to handle this. Although my H and I are on good terms, we haven't talked for almost a month. I believe he hasn't contacted me because he would be afraid he would lead me on. My H is stubborn and a fatalist. Once he has things in his head, there is almost no changing it. I'm up against a brick wall, and have no idea what to do. <BR> <BR> I have looked into divorce busters (great book and BB...follows MB ideas...michelle weiner) and have been told about stopyourdivorce.com. Not sure what it is like, cost is 39.99 for online book.<P> I hope things work out for you both. It is a long, tough ride.<P> Kathy<BR>

no1bearfan,<P>I notice that you are new here, so I'll say ...<BR>Hello and welcome to the MarriageBuilders forum.<P>I read your post and have been thinking about your problem. I'm no expert, just another guy going through a similar problem. My W (wife) moved out 2 months ago - saying she wanted a divorce. I think things are turning around for me - looking better every day. I have good hopes for my marriage.<P>First let me say that you have a long road ahead of you - hopefully about a 40 year road. You will have to do some work, and you will have to prepare for it. We (on the forum) want to help you, but the first thing I would recommend for you is to do some reading. Read the basic principles on this site and all the other materials - Q&A etc. on the site, then come back and ask questions on the forum. Your whole life and future is at stake. Yes, you can live without this woman - but that would be a completely different life than you wanted. Be prepared to work - to take time, read, think, talk - even spend some money.<P>After (or while) you are reading etc., you may want to go to a marriage counselor. I know they are expensive. Mine was $70 - $90 per hour - depending on whether you bought the time an hour at a time or in blocks of 5 hours. Given what is at stake, it is worth it. I think it is a very favorable thing that your wife has agreed - perhaps not in the right spirit - but agreed - to go to counseling with you. You should take advantage of that. There are many many individuals who post on this forum who would give anything to get their spouse to go to counseling with them.<P>As for what to read other than this site, I recommend "Boundaries in Marriage", by Cloud and Townsend, and of course the Harley's books: "His Needs / Her Needs", "Love Busters", "Give & Take", and "Surviving an Affair". I also recommend James Dobson's book "Love Must be Tough". That's a lot to read, and while you are at it, you might read "The Relationship Cure", by John Gottman. <P>Ok, so now you feel overwhelmed. Believe me, the time you spend doing this will pay off. You can win. You can save your marriage, but you are going to have to work. You will not find a quick answer to all of your problems on this forum. All of us here have problems too - and are struggling with them. Some of us have been in situations similar to yours, and might be able to tell you what worked or didn't work for us, but ultimately your marriage is in your hands. You must decide what to do, and you must do it. These books and the advice of friends here will only be a guide.<P>A few more personal comments on your situation - and some questions...<P>It is highly likely that your wife is having an affair. Sorry to put it so plainly, but from what I have read, it is rare for a woman to say and do as she has without that being true. It may not be true, but it is likely. That may be painful for you and everybody else involved, but it does not doom your marriage.<P>I also want to say, that it is very common for a person to say "I never loved you" when it clearly is not true. You can find something about this in Michell Wiener-Davis' book "Divorce Busting". I have previously posted a quote on this "never loved you" somewhere on this forum and I can find it for you if you wish. My wife said the same thing - and I know it isn't true - because I have letters. There's no way she could have written what she wrote without loving me. <P>Q: Do you suspect an affair?<P>Q: You say you have "been together" since '98. What do you mean? Have you been living together? Or do you mean that you have been dating since that time?<P>Q: What are the scheduling issues that kept you appart for the last few weeks? One thing that Dr. Harley says is that you need to spend at least 15 hours alone together each week (not counting sleeping - watching TV doesn't count) in order to maintain an "in love" relationship. If you are not doing that, you need to make adjustments ASAP. What is more important - your job, hobbies, school, church etc. or your marriage? I think you know the answer.<P>Well, I've said enough for now.<P>I may be out the next couple of days, but there are others here who can help you. Keep us posted. You can turn this around.<P>-AD<BR><p>[This message has been edited by AbandonedDad (edited July 29, 2001).]

I don't suspect an affair, my wife is just very headstrong and stubborn, i.e. when an idea enters her head, she sticks with it. She also has a pattern of quitting things (school, job, etc.) when the going gets tough.<P>We have been dating since February 11, 1998 and began living together in that fall. So, we have been together, together for almost three years.<P>As for the conflict, I am a high school baseball coach and she is the assistant camp director for the local YMCA. I am also the physical director at the YMCA, but the locations are on opposite sides of town. Basically, I was busy at night and she during the day, so our schedules rarely jibed, especially because due to rainouts, there was a four week period where I was busy at least 5 nights out of the week. Trust me, I will not coach next season if we survive this and agree to work on each other.<P>I don't know where this will end up. It's a tough ride, I know, and I've only been on it 4 weeks today. Last night, she got home after going driving by herself and I basically forced a situation. She loves massages and I offered one, saying that "I know it's at least one of the things you love about me" and "At least let me do this one last time, especially if my time is limited." She agreed, with a little hesitation, but it ended up being wonderful. We don't talk much during these times, but I just sit there, rubbing her and knowing in my mind that she is feeling good at that particular time and moment.<P>I know that I am basically catering to her and probably holding on with all of my might to something that will shortly dissolve. But until she's gone, my purpose in life and love is to make her feel good. It has always been that way and I don't have the heart to do anything else. I shouldn't cater to her as I do, but my love for her is too deep to quit until she serves me with the papers.<P>After the massage, which lasted a good two hours, she came downstairs and thanked me, at which time I thanked her for "allowing me one night of feeling normal." She just kind of shyly smiled at me and we embraced for about five minutes. I know she is convincing herself that leaving would be the best for both of us, but I guess as long as she's here, I can't stop trying. I don't feel like that is wrong, but is it? So many of my friends tell me that I make it "too easy" for her, that I should be tougher. I can't...my heart, faith and love for her won't let me.<P>Thank you for your input...I pray our situations work themselves out for the best.

Hope you'll read a post from a cheesehead, bearfan...<P>disclaimer: I'm in the middle of marital strife, not a survivor of it. Read the website before you take any advice from me. All I'm really good for here is showing that you aren't alone in this.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by no1bearfan:<BR>my wife is just very headstrong and stubborn, i.e. when an idea enters her head, she sticks with it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmmm... are you sure you're not married to my wife? It took my wife 14 years to get her PhD, in part because her department didn't think she was worth supporting, so she had to do it all on her own. That strength is one reason I love her- unfortunately, it means that once she decided she had to leave, there was nothing I could do about it. She will have to go through with it; I have to hope that once she does it, she realizes that's not what will make her happy. In the meantime, I (and you) have to demonstrate- not just say, but demonstrate- that I am the person with whom she can be happy. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...I basically forced a situation. She loves massages and I offered one...She agreed, with a little hesitation, but it ended up being wonderful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Say a prayer of thanks, friend, you just made a large deposit in her "love bank." A lot of us are crying for the opportunity to show our wives such care and devotion.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know that I am basically catering to her and probably holding on with all of my might to something that will shortly dissolve. But until she's gone, my purpose in life and love is to make her feel good. [/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I find it more helpful to think of it as "honestly expressing my love for her." It makes her feel good, to the point she can accept it. It makes me feel good, because it's all true.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I shouldn't cater to her as I do, but my love for her is too deep to quit ... I can't stop trying. I don't feel like that is wrong, but is it? So many of my friends tell me that I make it "too easy" for her, that I should be tougher.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There was a thread about this last week; look for "On Being 'Good Friends' " - the gist of what I posted there is sometimes Plan A will make you feel this way; people will say you're 'enabling' her, making it 'too easy.' Harley says that's normal. <P>My family is on my back a little, too- "get a lawyer, protect yourself, don't make it so easy on her." But they're not me, they're not in the middle of this. I will proceed the way I believe best; if it fails, I'll know I failed on my terms, not on my family's. If she never comes back, it won't be because I drove her away.<P>Good luck to you, but not to da bears...<BR>BH<p>[This message has been edited by dabigtrain (edited July 30, 2001).]

Thanks, train...except for not rooting for the Bears.<P>I guess I just have so much faith in her and what she is eventually going to become that I want to be there when she finds the joy that she is looking for. Selfishly, I know that someday, she is going to be the best mother, the best wife, the best friend of her husband. I don't want another guy feeling that when I know that at least at one time, her love was true for me.<P>The biggest problem that I am experiencing right now is the I found the Lord just about two years ago (Easter, '99 baptized). I try to live my life in His eyes and live to make Him proud. But I struggle with why He would allow me to choose a woman who doesn't love me and never has (if that's true) while allowing me to fall so deeply in love with her. He doesn't want me to hurt, and I know He doesn't give me any more than I can handle, but it's crushing to know that there is a God out there that would allow so much hurt and pain to be caused. Why does someone like me, who loves so true and deep, get duped and proven to be naive and frail? I don't get it, and maybe I'm not supposed to. And, that's probably a very selfish way of looking at things anyway.<P>I hope that the backrub made a deposit in her love bank...woke her up today with about 15 minutes of rubbing her head and arms so she'd have a great start. But, as is her style, she got up afterward, said she had to get up, and went into the bathroom without another word. She will let me in just far enough to later push me out.<P>I will never give up on her...she is my heavenly angel; I cannot stop believing that. She is wonderful inside once you get past the layers and walls that she puts up to protect herself. Like I've said before, until SHE serves ME with papers, I'll keep giving and giving and giving some more even if it hurts me more in the long run. I just don't know any other way. Love and one's heart makes a person do funny things.<P>Thanks for the input, everyone. I am praying for all of you as you all are praying for me.

no1bearfan,<P>It looks like we got ourselves the making of some heated ‘discussions’ come this football season! Being a die-hard Chiefs fan myself, I’ll probably have to serve as a moderator between you and dabigtrain seeing as how most Bear and Packer fans seem to have this mutual hate/hate relationship when it comes to supporting their clubs. At least we’ll all be able to put aside our football differences and support each other when it comes to the marriage issues in our lives <P>I have been following your story and it sounds similar to mine in many ways. My best piece of advice for you is to follow your heart and always do what <B>YOU</B> are capable of doing, without hurting yourself further. Many people will probably tell you at some point to forget about her and to move on, but remember that they are not living your life. If this woman is truly your heavenly angel as you put it, then turn your marriage over to God and pray that he watch over both you, leading you each down the paths he wants you to follow. If this marriage is meant to be and God wants this union to proceed, your separate journeys will bring you back to one another. At the same time, if your marriage is not what God wants, then your journeys will lead you away from each other. I’m not saying that you should just give up and walk away, but no matter how hard you try and no matter how much you suffer, if this union is not blessed, it’s not going to work.<P>I beat myself up for a long time trying to figure out ways to ‘win’ my wife back and it seemed that the harder I tried or pushed, the further she went away from me. I got to the point that no matter how strong my love and desire remained, I just couldn’t take it anymore. I finally hit my breaking point and when I did, I broke down. It was at this point where I literally did turn my marriage over to God. I quit struggling with myself, quit worrying about what my ex was doing and really began to let myself live again. It was amazing for me. I still had my moments, but they fewer and further between in addition to being less intense. I still prayed, but instead of praying that the Lord would bring us back together, I prayed for our individual happiness and if God wanted us to be together, he would show us the way.<P>I still don’t know if it is God’s will for us to be together, but my ex is finally starting to show signs of emerging from her fog. She has experienced life on her own now for a year and she is starting to realize the kind of life she gave up. Like your wife, my ex still has some issues of her own and still has some growing to do, but like you, I can see the potential of what she will become someday and it makes me sad that I may not be a part of that. At the same time, she has burned me once and the protector inside of me is forcing me to keep my eyes wide open and to proceed down this road with extreme caution. I don’t know what is in store for me down the road, but I will always take comfort in knowing that through it all, I have treated my ex with love, respect, understanding and sometimes even support. As hard as it was for me to tell her, I was actually proud of her for finally taking a stand for herself and for doing something in her life that she truly believed in. Even though it was tearing me up inside, I was still supporting her decisions as a loving husband should. Most people didn’t understand this, but that didn’t stop me. Even when I helped her move furniture out of our house, I could still look at myself in the mirror and respect the image looking back at me. You’ll come to learn that when all else fails, the only person in this life that you can always count on is yourself and as long as you still have your self respect, you will survive all of life’s evils.<P>Always do what you feel is best for you and for your situation. Nobody else can live your life for you. Hang in there, bearfan.....the ride is bumpy so you better hang on tight <BR>

Thanks for the support, Jayhawk...yours was the first story I read on the site.<P>I will forever believe she is my angel and that God put us on this earth to find each other. But today, for the first time (in fact, just about an hour ago) I felt a sense of calm. I don't quite look in the mirror yet and see someone I should be proud of, in fact, quite the opposite. I still see a failure. But what I have started to realize is that I have done absolutely all that I can to show her, tell her, make her feel how much and how deeply I love her.<P>She knows, and perhaps that is the problem. She is the "push-away" type when she wants to be. But I know that someday, when she lets someone in to see who she really is, she will see what I have seen during our entire 3 1/2 years...a person who loves deeply and most importantly, a person who will allow herself to be loved. I pray to God that it will be me, but if not, then I have to love her enough to let her go and let her make the "mistakes" that are keeping me from letting her go right now. I have a very protective instinct in me where she is concerned (she hasn't always made the "right" choices) and I simply want her to live her life free of trouble and free of the feeling that she is somehow cursed. For example, a DUI in 1998 still plagues her today, even after fines, jail time, etc.<P>I have done all that I can possibly do to make this work. But you're right, if God means for us to be together, we will be. If not, then I can thank Him for 3 1/2 years of giving me the opportunity to love her unconditionally. What a wonderful gift that was, the ability to see someone and make her so close to myself that I finally, after 26 years (at the time), found what I consider "true inspirational and unconditional love."<P>Gone or here with me, I will always love her. I will not feel anger toward her...I will always see a wonderful young woman who let me in, if only for a short time. That doesn't make it less painful to accept, but it does give me comfort that whether she knew it or not, she felt perfect love for at least a small period in her life.<P>I'm sure I'll cry some more, probably even continue to wish I'd just stop breathing sometimes because of the fear of being without her. But I know that deep down, she knows the love she felt from me can never be equalled and she will ultimately realize how special and important that is in life. Maybe when she hits her lowest point sometime in the future, the memory of my love will inspire her to go on, to realize that she is the beautiful person I have always said that she is.<P>My heart is telling me to hold on, to support her, and to make her life as smooth as possible until she won't allow me to anymore...thank you for telling me that my heart doesn't necessarily have to be overruled by my "logical" head.

OK Bear, time for the East Coast to weigh in from a 'Skins fan (OK, no jokes). As you can see here, we are not alone. I am relatively new here, but my W and I separated two weeks ago. She says she does not love me, has not for some time. It broke my heart, but I thought the best thing I could do was honor her wish to separate. I finally found the courage to let go, and I moved out, she in the house with the kids.<P>It has been harder than anything I have ever done. But I maintain hope, and live one day at a time. We have started marriage counseling together, and she is willing to continue with it, which is a positive. We had a good talk last night. I think it may take some time and space.<P>We both share the same love for our W's, and it's a killer, isn't it. My advice, for what it is worth, is take some time toi work and take care of you. The one thing I have learned is I cannot make my W love me, much as I would like to try.<P>That's my wisdom. Good luck my friend.

Thank you for the support, even if you are a Skins fan...<P>We have gone to counselling (once) and she is convinced that it did no good...of course, she went, the counselor knew I was the one who didn't want this, and she immediately went on the defensive.<P>I would love to give Retrouvaille a chance if she would allow...anything she is willing to do I will accept, just as I will have to let her go if that is her choice. Thanks again for everyone's support and input.

Bear,<P>While reading through your last post something struck me that I have not noticed before. I'm gonna call this one like I see it and not to point fingers or to place blame, but as an observation, from an outsider trying to understand your situation. I have been through this and have been accused of the same here, but the section which follows has you coming off as very controlling, almost parent-like in terms to 'allowing' her to live her own life. Read through the portions that I took from your post (objectively), then see my comments to follow: <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by no1bearfan:<BR>But what I have started to realize is that I have done absolutely all that I can to show her, tell her, make her feel how much and how deeply I love her.<P>She knows, and perhaps that is the problem. She is the "push-away" type when she wants to be. But I know that someday, when she lets someone in to see who she really is, she will see what I have seen during our entire 3 1/2 years...a person who loves deeply and most importantly, a person who will allow herself to be loved. I pray to God that it will be me, but if not, then I have to love her enough to let her go and let her make the "mistakes" that are keeping me from letting her go right now. I have a very protective instinct in me where she is concerned (she hasn't always made the "right" choices) and I simply want her to live her life free of trouble and free of the feeling that she is somehow cursed. For example, a DUI in 1998 still plagues her today, even after fines, jail time, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Like me, I know that you are not trying to live your wife's for her and are not trying to make her decisions, but your wife has to figure some of these things out on her own. No matter how much you love her and want to be supportive of her, you have to accept that she is going to make mistakes. I'm not trying to rip you or anything along those lines so I hope you are not taking offense, but I heard myself in your words above and it took the work of a close family member for me to realize what a dysfunction this care taking can turn out to be.<P>My wife was only 20 when we met. She went from life with her parents, to college, to me. She was never on her own to learn how to survive without relying on someone else to do everything for her. I am also very much like her father in many ways. I am loving, caring, protective and willing to do anything for the people I love. This similarity to her father is likely part of the draw she had toward me, at least in the beginning.<P>When my wife and I were together, she had a <B>MAJOR</B> issue with spending money that she didn't have (credit cards) and for calculating the balance in her checking account incorrectly (bouncing checks). Whenever she bounced a check, I would cover it. Whenever the overdraft charge affected her spending money from her next check, I would come up with cash. When she was being a charged penalty for overcharging the available balance on the credit card, I handled it. When she was too embarrassed to write a check at the store for fear of being exposed as a bad check writer, I went with her and paid with my checks. I was protecting her and doing what I thought was the right thing to do as her husband and as her friend. In reality, I was enabling this behavior because she never had to deal with the consequences.<P>This is just one example and I'm sure there were other areas where I could've done more for her, but didn't. Looking back, I feel that I was acting as a parent or a guardian to my wife instead of being her equal, her partner. Now what I did was not wrong, but it wasn't exactly the best thing to do either. When my wife wanted to leave and to 'experience life on her own' I really didn't understand the urge. I never had a desire to live on my own and I wasn't sure why. Then it occurred to me...My father passed away a few days after my 14th birthday. I was forced into 'manhood' at a very young age taking on the 'man of the house' role and basically raising my mother and my sister. Then in college, I took care of my roommate who came from a dysfunctional family himself. Then I was with my wife and I was taking care of her. For 17 years I have been living the role of a caretaker, so why would I have ever desired to be alone? Taking care of my loved ones is what I do and I didn't know who I was outside of that caretaker role. It was a very enlightening realization for me.<P>The last thing in the world I was willing to accept is that my wife no longer 'needed' me to do things for her. She was now a 'grown-up' and was going off to the big bad world all on her own, and I was left behind. I felt discarded and used like she had only been with me for a matter of convenience (word of advice here, <I>never</I> accuse your wife of being with you as a matter of convenience! I learned that one the hard way ) I finally accepted that I could no longer protect her from the unknown. She wanted freedom and I couldn't stand in her way.<P>I will never agree that our divorce was right, but there are some positives that have come from it. I have learned a lot about myself and I understand <B>who</B> I am as a result. She is learning that the real world is not all that it is cracked up to be and sometimes it's not so great having to do things all alone. In many ways, this experience was very good for both of us and probably made us more mature in our own rights.<P>If your wife wants 'freedom', you have step aside for her to be free. Even if that results in her leaving you. Keep in mind the old saying, "If you love something, set it free. If it comes back, it was meant to be. If it never comes back, it was never yours to begin with." Of course there is the other version, "......if it never comes back, hunt it down and kill it!" Obviously, <B>that</B> is not the right decision!<P>Keep the faith young Bear's fan......you'll need it come football season BTW, the Bears meet the Chiefs on 8/18 at Arrowhead for preseason game #2. Care to make any predictions?<BR>

You're right, Jayhawk, you're absolutely right. I just wish, then, that I could change who I am.<P>I have never learned how to be anything but helpful. When my friends need an ear or shoulder, I'm there. When they need help with anything in their lives, I'm there. I have a friend that told me that he loves me like a brother because of my unending loyalty to my friends. In fact, he went so far as to say that if there were 47 hoops to jump through, I would jump through 48 to make sure they all got covered.<P>He also said that is my biggest downfall because people walk all over me. My wife, for example, knows I'm going nowhere, so what's the hurry to leave? She's still got it good...I do the dishes, I clean the upstairs (where she lives), I still pay the bills, she drives the nicer of the two cars...all because of this desire deep in my heart to make her life as smooth as possible even as she's leaving me and causing me so much pain. What is therapeutic in a really weird way for me is enabling her. I clean and do all of that other stuff so that she has a home to come home to...I never looked at it as a bad thing...too selfish, I guess.<P>Problem is, I lack the strength right now to ask her to leave our house. I lack the strength to tell her to pay her own bills. I lack the strength to TRULY face the fact that I am in the process of losing her. As at peace as I was last night, I am equally weak right now...it's morning and again, I think to myself what a terrible life to wake up to each morning. I looked in the mirror and saw someone who has a failed marriage...it's embarrassing, it's sad, and most of all, it's eating my insides out.<P>My love for her, I guess, is detrimental to her in our relationship. I suppose it is true that one can love something too much. I never thought it possible, but maybe by being so deeply in love with her, I doomed our marriage to failure because I didn't let her live. Maybe I did suffocate her right out of our life together. What a sobering and terrible thought to think that the most powerful, and I thought positive, emotion I feel is actually the most destructive and the reason I am losing the one thing that is most important in my life.<P>Although the plan is for me not to summon her with papers, I am going to a lawyer in the next couple of days to see where I stand legally. Just a precaution...I'm still going to make her serve me. Plus, I think I'm going to hop in my car on Friday afternoon and drive to Florida to see my parents and a friend without telling her. She won't worry about me, but I guess I hope by not telling her where I'm going she'll at least have a chance to think a little (just a week) about what it's like with me gone. She'll probably enjoy the hell out of it and leave when I get back. Oh well, like you said Jayhawk, if I love her, set her free.<P>Sorry this is such a downer...guess it's all part of the roller coaster.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You're right, Jayhawk, you're absolutely right. I just wish, then, that I could change who I am.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Bearfan, you do not have to change who you are, just understand <B>WHO</B> you are is an important part in this entire process. And don’t forget that what you are dealing with here is a process and not an event. Even if the day comes where you receive papers from the court stating that you are legally divorced, the pain does not stop there. It does get easier with time, but all of this is just part of the process.<P>I don’t think there is anything wrong with you being a caring and supportive friend/husband. On the whole, “nice guys” do finish last and being “softies” like we are does open us up to people taking advantage of us. However, we can still control who takes advantage and to what degree. I know that my family sometimes asks too much of me, but I know my limits and some days I just have to say no or postpone until a better time. That’s ok too.<P>Your last post sounds like you are headed into the ‘blame myself’ game, I know the feeling. As hard as this may be hear and is difficult as it will be to understand, but in reality, there is a VERY small chance that any of the issues in your wife’s life right now are being caused by a direct response to you or your way of providing for her. This may sound like a contradiction to my prior post, but that post was merely to point out your parenting nature (in case you were not already aware). I was told time and time again that my wife left because of something inside of her and that it had nothing to do with me. No matter how many times I heard that, I didn’t believe it. I continually blamed myself, trying to figure out what I possibly could’ve done different to ‘make’ her happy. When it comes right down to it, we can never make another person happy. Happiness comes from within and if a person is not happy within themselves, they will never be happy in life. It wasn’t until this past week when I had dinner with my ex that I truly understood and believed that last statement. She was, and is still a very unhappy person. I don’t know what skeletons are in her closet and what is preventing her from being happy, but that’s not my responsibility to figure out. All I can do is be her friend and help her if she ever gets to a point where she needs my help.<P>Like you, I didn’t want my divorce and I was not the one who filed the papers. I was willing to wait things out, but my wife was determined to get on with her life and to close up all loose ends. She did the filing, she hired the attorney and she got her divorce. I did consult an attorney before the filing just so that I would know what to expect and what I needed to do to protect myself as it only makes sense. Your wife may be a very loving and caring woman as well, but people have a tendency to change their attitudes once the attorney’s take hold of them. Remember to keep yourself composed and always show your wife the love and respect you have for her. Once her fog lifts, she will come to realize that man she had in you is a hard thing to come by these days and she will understand what she gave up. If you really want to have a chance at being together down the road, don’t burn any bridges and don’t alienate her. It’s ok to let her know that you are not going to wait forever, in fact, there are some positives in letting her see that you are moving on with your life without her. I know you are not there yet, but that day will come.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As at peace as I was last night, I am equally weak right now...it's morning and again, I think to myself what a terrible life to wake up to each morning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Those were my thoughts exactly which prompted me to write the following several months back.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum18/HTML/000232.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum18/HTML/000232.html</A>

no1, I just finished reading your post and it was like reading my own story. I am in the Army. I have known my wife for three years, we've been living together, or would have been living together, for two years next week. We've had a year of rough times. She thinks there is no hope and wants to live her own life and so on and so forth. She left me a week or so ago. I'm not exactly sure what day but she was gone when I came home. She is living with a friend of hers across town. We have spoken a little and I wrote this 5 page letter on MS Word and gave it to her to no effect. Anyway....<P>My advice, if I'm even remotely qualified to give any, is this... You obviously love your wife a great deal. As much as I love mine. I want nothing more than to go to counseling. At least your wife said she will go. She may not have an open mind, but she'll go and that is a slim chance. It is hard to live with the memory of her saying that she never loved you. Don't believe it. She said it to hurt you so you would push her away and make it easier for her to leave the marriage. My wife has made similiar comments. I don't believe her. <P>People at work have told me that things work out for the best. Trust in God and His plan for our lives. Sometimes I feel as if I have been forsaken by God because my W is my gift from Him and I'm so very close to losing her, if I haven't lost her already. What has worked for me so far to get through this last week has been my friends, faith in myself to correct problems I know were responsible for this breakdown, and faith in God. If you truly believe as I do that God rewarded you with your wife, then you should also take faith in the fact that God wanted you to be happy once and there is no reason to think that has changed. A few days ago I thought God was saying "Screw you" to me for throwing his gift away. I don't feel that way now. Every day that I manage to wake up is a victory. My friends have been, for the most part, supportive. Friends and God will only get you so far, though. You must...you MUST...look within yourself and take an incredible risk and believe that if you work for something hard enough, you will get it. I'm devoting every day to fixing my problems so if she tells me that she wants to come home sometime in the future, then my inner house will be clean and free of garbage from the past. Believe in yourself and your worth. Believe in her and her worth. Believe in God. This last may work for you, it may not. You could try believing that in a cold and cruel world, some happiness does exist and maybe this is your little slice...if you want it bad enough. <P>I hope this helps you a little. Sometime soon I'll be posting about my W and our problems and my blindness/stupidity/arrogance. Then you'll have the opportunity to get me back. LOL <P>------------------<BR>Don't look back. You never know what is gaining on you.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfen:<BR><B>It is hard to live with the memory of her saying that she never loved you. Don't believe it. She said it to hurt you so you would push her away and make it easier for her to leave the marriage. My wife has made similiar comments. I don't believe her. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Let me echo that. My wife is engaging in a lot of revisionist history now, looking at our past through the cloudy glass of her despair. A trip we took that we used to remember as fun and romantic, now was a disappointment. Our courtship, which had its ups and downs, now only had downs. It's hard to hear, but it's part of the fog, and if she ever comes out, it will stop. Don't take it too much to heart; keep your memories of your relationship clear.<P>

As much as I learned about myself yesterday, and trust me, I learned a lot, I also found out some things about what is going on in my wife's life that may shed new light on things.<P>First, about me, as you read in the previous posts, I somewhat turned into her dad because with all of my best intentions, I have never let her grow and spread her wings because I am too nurturing and have always wanted to help her make things better in her life. Plus, I learned that I think I really hate myself more than I have ever known. I am a perfectionist in general, even moreso in situations like this where I have always dreamt of the 2 1/2 kids, dog, etc. I am a very deep thinker and I never put myself ahead of anyone else. You need me, I'm there...I need me, I think to myself who else needs me? Take this situation as an example...I feel sad for myself, really in a mourning state over the potential loss of my marriage. Then I think of a friend of mine with cerebral palsy, or another friend of mine who lost both parents three years ago and I then feel guilty for being so selfish and losing perspective. It is a very vicious circle that I cannot ever seem to cut. I truly hate myself.<P>A mutual friend of my wife and I went out with my wife until 2 a.m. on Monday night...it was the first time that my wife had been out with someone who wants to see us work things out. I surmized that she did it for one of three reasons...(1) To go out with someone who cares about both of us to appear that she is trying as hard as possible to make the right decision; (2) To go out with someone, searching for someone to help her understand that this is a good thing in her life and that it is worth investing more time and effort in; or (3) To go out with someone who cares about us both, convince herself that nothing has changed and then say, "See, I still feel the same so we better part ways." This would be similar to our counselling session three weeks ago.<P>At any rate, found out some things from the friend that I didn't know. First, my wife admitted she had to "straighten out her own life" and that she had to take care of that stuff on her own. She also told our friend that she loves me and cares for me deeply but isn't convinced that she is in love with me (knew that). In addition, our friend said that there were a lot of shoulder shrugs, "I don't knows," and a lot of listening going on from my wife as our friend asked questions (our friend said that my wife did a lot of listening because she had a lot to say). Also an admission of being confused, that she is not cheating on me (although she wishes there was someone else because it would be easier), and that she was still thinking this through to make sure she was making the right decision.<P>Also found out what truly bugs her about me...I'm a mope and I make big deals out of small things. Basically what happens is that when she leaves late at night to be with her friends (10:30 p.m., 11 p.m., however late it is), it breaks my heart because I feel like she's abandoning me, like she is willing to be with her friends at the expense of her husband and her marriage. I can't help the drop of my heart, the knot in my stomach, the pain and sadness that I feel every time she leaves. Well, she knows she's hurting me but feels powerless to change her habits so instead of coming home sooner than later, she stays away because I create a very destructive environment. She's right...who would want to come home to someone who's going to show pain instead of the happiness I should show when I see her? I have not created a good environment for her to live in, so no wonder she's unhappy.<P>Well, here's the bombshell...seems that the friend she has been calling her best friend is holding something over her which causes my wife extreme guilt and the feeling of owing her something. Two years ago, during our final breakup prior to our marriage, my wife had an encounter with her "best friend's" ex...while her best friend was in the hospital in traction. Not justifying the experience, but we were all apart from each other so there were no ties to anyone except the unwritten rule of not touching friend's ex-"property." It was shortly after this that my wife and her "best friend" had a falling out and my wife and I actually were an "us" for several months as it appeared that she was trying to outrun some of her demons. We were stronger than ever...yes, she and her best friend were not talking, but it put me in the role of her best friend and we thrived.<P>Well, turns out that even after two years, her "best friend" still holds that over her head, still makes her feel guilty about it and continues to make her feel like she is owed something for my wife's indiscretion. My wife is a very caring and loving person and the guilt she feels right now is incredible...thus the bending over backwards for her "best friend" every time she calls.<P>The point is, I have never known that her "best friend" has held this against her for so long. I have just seen it as my wife's choice to leave me. It is her choice, but if you knew her, you would know that she sometimes feels powerless to the emotions she feels, especially guilt.<P>I don't know what will happen, but our mutual friend point-blank told her to think long and hard about what she was doing, about what she was "prepared" to walk away from in favor of this "best friend" that would continue to hold you in a guilty corner of your life. From what our mutual friend said, it may not change things, but it did make my wife think and maybe, just maybe, if my wife and our mutual friend continue to spend time together, this can work itself out...eventually. Then again, she may still walk away because she just doesn't love me.<P>All I know is that I will continue to come home, continue to be here if she needs me and continue to support her as much as she allows. I will also start "working on myself" and try to find a way to be half-happy as my world continues to crumble. No matter what she decides, I will always love my wife and be to her whatever I am capable of being. I pray that God may someday reward me with the return of my marriage and the strength to make the adjustments in my life to be the husband she needs me to be and the husband that I can be happy with.<P>Thanks your all of your support...I always look forward to reading your advice each morning.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by no1bearfan:<BR>...I have never let her grow and spread her wings because I am too nurturing and have always wanted to help her make things better in her life. Plus, I learned that I think I really hate myself more than I have ever known. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Slow down, friend, you are heading for a crash. You are taking far too much on yourself here. Every problem in a marriage is 50/50. You "never let her grow?" She didn't tell you what she needed to grow. You hate yourself for what- feeling the loss of your wife's love. Yes, there are worse pains, but they're not yours, and you should accept that. Earlier this year, my wife was depressed, and felt ashamed about it- "my children are happy and healthy, I'm employed, my husband is a good partner, what the hell is wrong with me?" It made it hard for her to deal with the depression, and I'm still wondering if our marriage will ever recover from it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...Basically what happens is that when she leaves late at night to be with her friends (10:30 p.m., 11 p.m., however late it is), it breaks my heart because I feel like she's abandoning me, like she is willing to be with her friends at the expense of her husband and her marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, from my own experience: my wife did the same thing a lot last year, and I told myself "well, in a healthy marriage, we don't have to be together all the time." True- but it was actually a sign our marriage wasn't healthy. "I don't really like going out to bars and dancing" - BS, I do, but I was telling myself that to keep from making waves about the lack of time together. "She needs the companionship with her friends, the time off from family/job pressures." True, and so do I, and I need time with her and wasn't getting it. It's more honest of you to say you don't like the situation than to try to cover it up and explain it away the way I did.<P><BR>

Heading for a crash...I've already been there numerous times.<P>Last night I walked away from the mutual friend thinking there was a chance to rebuild. Today I enter a new day with the same pessimism that I had yesterday before I saw the friend...I was ready, and I guess am ready, to surrender, to give up, to throw in the towel, so to speak. Each day I think of her and wish there was some way God could come into her life and help her to see that the life she has is good, that stability and safety are good, that me as a partner is good. Maybe He is and she is denying it...maybe He is waiting for a later time, perhaps allowing her to hit what may be her bottom. All I know is that I don't know how to get through this any more. The pain, as tolerable at times as it is, is all-consuming and continuously reinforces the hate I have found in myself. Maybe hate is a strong word, but if I could ever, God-willing, have a final chance to save our marriage, I would change the destructive behaviors that I have brought into the marriage. Yes, it's 50/50, but you're dealing with a man who forever has felt as though I have done absolutely nothing wrong to end our union. No, I never put 100% blame on her, but I knew in my heart that I did absolutely all I could to be the husband I thought I was supposed to be. Now, after seeing things differently, I admit my faults, my shortcomings, and see them as the cancers that I brought into the marriage. If there is a God, and He grants miracles and second chances, may He show me a miracle and give me one final opportunity to address those issues and find constructive, instead of destructive, ways to deal with my pain inside.<P>My wife, while caring and sweet and loving deep down, seems committed to following through with this in spite of her potential realization that her "best friend" shouldn't be treating her like she is, i.e. the guilt and feeling of being owed something. No friend, best or not, should hold a grudge like that for over two years. But, oh yeah, who am I to talk...my wife was unfaithful (minimally, as it was just a kiss) with a good friend of hers from high school. Yet, over the past three years, she did nothing to change her relationship with him and continued to put herself in the same position that she was in to be unfaithful (i.e. drunk and unknowing). Guess what I've done...held it over her head each time she sees him by moping, getting down, and worst of all, letting her know how much pain I'm in. I guess me being mad at her "best friend" is the pot calling the kettle black...I've done the same thing for over three years.<P>Someday, I guess I'll find the joy in myself that I need to, and I've probably done too much damage to convince her that a second chance would make a difference. I don't know how, but maybe I'll get that chance and maybe, just maybe, I'll have the opportunity to show her that I want to make myself better for her, our marriage and most importantly, myself. May she never forget how much I love and care for her...<P>Thank you for your support.