<BR>I am running out of room on my computer it won`t show the last message so I guess we filled up the not in love thread. Can some of the posts be wiped out so the last post can bbe read? thanks

Frankie and Confused......<P> Think we need to add on to this part two because the other one is getting so dang long take forever to load to read. I did read both your last respones. Confused I think its great you are in love so much with her. I wish I could have those feelings again someday. Melt I know that has to be hard. But try and not let her control you. She knows you will do what she asks. But then again I know its hard not to if you like to and love them. My spouse has threatened to leave at least 3 times. Guess what he hasn't. To me he wanted to see my reaction and use it as control in my book. The way he trys to conrtrol is wrong. He hates things I enjoy doing. That or get jealous. He even hates me talking on the phone to a grilfriend when he is home. That is so wrong. I am scared to get on the phone now when hes here because I see the reaction on his face. Nonpulsed you are right we tend to make decisions on hurt and pain. Well sometimes we have to learn from our mistakes the hard way too. I say if and when I decide I want out and find out later I was wrong then it was my mistake to make. I also think how can I feel anymore alone then I already do. Spouse gets upset to because I tell my girlfriends about everything and don;t talk to him Well I can;t not anymore. When I needed him there he was off drinking or did not care to listen. Now he wants to and there are things I don't want him to know. He says he does not know whats going on in my life. Well maybe now he knows how it feels to want your spouse there for you and they never were. Hes a good person don't get me wrong. But there comes a time when you can see you might not belong together anymore. I don't want to hurt anybody. But thereapist told me there comes a time you have to do something for you and not everybody else. I lived for him and the kids for so long I forgot what being a woman felt like. And I don't want it so I stay and kids are gone and what do we have with each other when they leave NOTHING. Its like you really never knew each other as people just as parents. You understand what I am saying? I love my kids more then anything but its wrong for them to see me unhappy too. Or should I say wrong to see parents not close like spouses should be and to show each other affection. I am to young and life is to short. I really hate feeling like this on the inside. I know should be thankful for whtat things I do have. Well being in love is one I would love to be thankful for. Well keep me informed please. Thanks

The last post was mine and I've copied it here for you:<P>Confused;<P>The question on the timing of a lawyer is a good one. You definitely do not want to start with a separation agreement and the whole adversarial process until you have satisfied yourself that this is what she wants and there is just no way around it. How to figure that out? I would just ask. It sounds to me like you and your wife go through a cycle of getting along better and then not so well again, but through it all there is no change in her over all intentions. But the best thing is to clarify it with her. When my ex said it was over, eventually I realized I just had to accept that. You might consult a lawyer just to get an idea what sort of things to expect in your particular situation.<P>I know you want her to stay. I desperately wanted my ex to stay as well. I begged her to try counseling, to give it some time, anything. But in the end, it was not my decision. It was hers. I think you are in a similar situation. I found one of the hardest things to accept about loving somebody is that you have really no ability to stop them from doing really harmful things, both to themselves and to others. When I tried, she felt controlled or that I didn't value her feelings and ideas. She wants to decide on her own, and she wants<BR>autonomy.<P>Most people can think through the possible results of a decision. But I think people who make decisions emotionally have a terrible time with this. They actually have to try something and experience the emotional consequences of the decision before they can decide if it was a good idea. This may not be your wife but it certainly is mine. My ex has done it before, where she has made a terrible decision because it sure looked exciting at the time, and then come home heartbroken and in trouble. She never makes the mistake again, but she can't learn without making it once. That's just the burden of emotional thinking. In my case it is kind of depressing to watch, as she spends money like crazy replacing stuff around the house, on babysitters so she can date, etc. She obviously cannot accept that our divorce is going to negatively affect her standard of living. But September is coming, and she has no job. She is trained as a teacher, and in our area the school board is planning to lay off 200 teachers, not hire more. Unfortunately, I know she will not give anything a second thought until she actually experiences the emotions of losing the house, not having enough money for rent, and having to take an office job. But I cannot do anything about it. That is just how her process works. <P>I hope she does get a job. It would be much better for my kids.<BR>

We seem to have a good day, where it almost seems like normal times and then have 4 or 5 tense days. She seems like this is finally really starting to eat her up. That`s how I have felt for months. Only it really pains me to see her this way. Why does it bother me so much? I doubt if it bothered her that much all while I was hurting. I almost don`t know what to say or do for fear of pushing her over the edge. She won`t even talk to me when she has a bad day at work. she says she goes off to be by herself. In the letter I wrote her i told her she needed to confide in someone like her sister, or brother. She can`t continue to keep all of this inside. Lokk at me, why am i worrying about it. i have enough of my own problems right now. Most days I long to have conversation with her But I don`t because I`m afraid to say the wrong things. The smallest things seem to irritate her these days. The stress of all of this is really taking it`s toll on me. i have to go to a doctor next week to find out more about the chest pains. I guess I wined enough , today was a bad day.

double post deleted<p>[This message has been edited by Alice (edited May 27, 1999).]

double post deleted<p>[This message has been edited by Alice (edited May 27, 1999).]

I know that feeling too. My wife dumped me pretty unceremoniously on December 5 last year. ****ty timing if I ever saw it, as we had both families coming over on the 6th for our youngest daughters birthday. Then there was the holidays and all of that. Yuck. But through it all, things were pretty good around the house. She seemed to be better some days and enjoy things like getting the tree as a family and what not. Here I was positively devastated but trying my damnedest to be nice and look after the family and help her out with stuff, and she would not even talk about it. Any attempt by me to open a dialog resulted in a terrible rage or "dump" from her, and it was all my fault, and she was not going to a counselor because there was no point, etc., etc. There were lots of "bad" days. I eventually learned to just bite my tongue. My suggestion is make sure you are separated before you slip it to the angry phase of the grief process. I didn't, and it was a big mistake. You don't want to exchange any angry words. I did. It just made her even more resolute, and made the possibility of a reconciliation that much more remote.

I have been biting my tounge. I haven`t said anything ugly, although she has. Some days it seem like she is almost back to normal. I don`t get it. That is what makes me think that maybe she is going through a change of life, her mother did at an early age, late thirties. But I can`t get to to a doctor. I guess I`m just looking for an explanation for myself.

where are you wonder? I miss your comments and thoughts.<BR> nonplused, have you had any more contact with your wife? Things for me are pretty much at a standstill. I di leave the letter i wrote when i went away for the weekend but I haven`t gotten a comment on it yet, maybe I never will but I got a chance to say what i have been feeling without her cutting me off or have an argument.

Confused.....<P> Sorry have not wrote any comments. I have not been doing to well last couple of days either. I am glad you wrote the letter. When I was in thereapy it did me good to write. She had me write what kind of day I had each day. It did help at least nobody could read but her. I have always been good about writing how I felt. And at times I think its better to write that way you know cannot get into a fight about it right away anyways. I am like you I don't know how or what I feel anymore. Besides empty really empty inside. I think in my heart its best if I went on and start all over again. I am so bitter towards all men right now. I don't know if I can ever feel love again. Its really has destroyed me. I think about my kids though aNd keep telling myself try and pretend a little longer. Spouse said this morning that he has been trying. Well I said if you were trying you would not take everything I say offensively like you said yesterday you do. We had a long talk Friday night. Alot came out again. But did it really resolve anything no. Did it make me feel better no. It seems when ever we get these discussions going things from the past get thrown in there and you can;t do that. It takes you nowhere. Even though you cannot forget some of them. I told myself Sunday just try get through each day quit worrying about everything you cannot do anything about it you have tryed. SO leave it in Gods hands. Well then yesterday we had a fight 2 times. I just don't know what to do anymore. Don't know if these are the comments you wanted to hear Confused but maybe you can relate. Hope write back soon.

wonder- I know exactly how you feel. I`m sorry to hear you have had a bad couple of days. They seem to last forever. When ever my wife and I talk about our relationship, I have to hear about things that happened a long time ago, some before we even got married. For me it`s best if we don`t discuss us right now. I`m only trying to work on us getting along right now. The more comfortable we feel around each other the better it may be for us to maybe eventually to some things together. the last time i asked her she didn`t want to do anything together. So I`ll wait a while and try later, this time maybe with the kids, and we`ll all do something together. Ther is nothing you can say or do that will change the past. You only have control of your future. I know that I want to do a lot of things differently in the future if she will let me. I too some days feel like I should give up, but I look at my wife and kids and say to myself, I`ll never do it. I have to keep trying, when one thing doesn`t work, try something else. What have you got to loose. I try to stay away from any confrotation right now. I know that I`m probabally doing all the work right now but I feel I have to. I just want to do what makes her happy.Like me the discussions about your past aren`t working so right now don`t talk about them. It was good to hear from you wonder, I hope you have a better day. Hang in there and we`ll all be here for you when you need us.

double post deleted<p>[This message has been edited by Alice (edited May 27, 1999).]

double post removed<p>[This message has been edited by Alice (edited May 27, 1999).]

Confused.....<P> Well do you feel it is affecting your kids ? My kids are 11 and 8 and I know the oldest is feeling the tension around here. Youngest not so sure. I feel for my kids its breaking my heart. I know kids being in a house with alot of arguing will hurt them. So sometimes you wonder if its best to seperate and move on. Will that hurt them even more being without there Dad here all the time? My thereapist told me when seeing her that kids do get over divorce. I am sure they do but does it leave a bitter taste. Or is it worse when they are older and going off on there own they see you stayed married only for there sake and then they are bitter because you stayed unhappy all that time cause of them. SO which way do you go? I know my kids are alot of my life but don't WE deserve to be happy to? I don't think God put us here on earth to stay miserable do you? I thought to myself Sunday ok try and look at the good things each day and let the rest of whats so empty in your life leave in his hands. But then the next day was really bad. I try really try and be posititve each mornint I get up but its so hard. I think I am alot like your wife though. You are trying and she is pushing away. But in my case I am not in love do you know if she still is? Or does she say? I wonder all the time why this is happening to me. I am such a giving woman and look what I have gotten out of life. Seems to me the women that control in a marriage are the ones that get what they want. I might be wrong but thats how I feel. I give and give and gave all these years and now I feel like why did I look where it got you. I told my Mom one time I am going to quit being so giving. She said don't thats who you are. Well she is right thats who I am. But I still ask why me? Sorry going on I guess I just want Gods hand to lead me where to go and have all those closed doors open up for me. But so far nothing. Keep writing I enjoy your responses. If anything it does help me reading them. Thanks

Confused,<P>I still keep in contact with my ex at least twice a week. I see my kids every Wednesday, and every second weekend I have them for the weekend. I also drop buy for an hour or 2 on the off weekends to push them on the swings or have some other sort of a visit. However, there are some things about it that are different. First, I have emotionally detached myself from my ex as much as possible. I keep our conversation pretty much to the kids. As much as possible I try not to engage her about her emotional highs and lows in life. That makes it easier not to ask. I figure if she ever wants to reopen communication, I'm ok with that, but she was the one who closed it, not me. Therefore she should be the one to reopen it. I try to be as cordial as possible and when she does want to talk I listen, and try to only offer encouraging comments. Of course, I think she's out to lunch so I have to be careful, and I don't stay in the conversation long enough to start offering my own obviously contradictory opinions.<BR>

wonder, my wife says she loves me but is not in love with me. She says it`s more like broyherly love. She said that she hasn`t been in love with me for several years.I don`t know why. Sure we both left ourselves drift apart the past few years. After 20 years you begin to take each other for granted. We never lived near any relatives so we only pretty much had each other. I never had an affair, was abusive or even argued that much with her. Then she hit me with this in February. After that day she avoided me and hardly even talked to me. Every time I tried to talk to her about it she would cut me off and said ther is nothing I could do to change anything. I tried to tell her we could change and do things differently and see where that would tale us. what was the rush to get separated. She wanted to leave me and the kids. But up until that day we went places together, kissed, had sex, everything that any other normal couple did. Her sister called the other day and suggested that maybe it was a change of life thing along with being 39. Their mother had an early change of life. I had read where it can completely change the way you think and act. She hasen`t even had much contact with her family since then also. They are beginning to wonder why she doesn`t call much. She isn`t home much these days, I think she is burrying herself in her work. I need to be here for my kids, which are 17,15 and 10. They don`t say much except that mom is working all the time. We don`t get into any arguments because I don`t bring it up anymore. The times we did talk about it I took her out to lunch to discuss it or we did it behind closed doors. <BR> Wonder, you have to ask yourself deep down do you really want your marriage to end? I don`t. I`m going to keep working at it. I`m trying to be there for her without pushing, which is really hard. I want her to be happy. If you don`t want it to end , start by not arguing. It doesn`t accomplish anything but gets you upset and really gets yoyu down for a few days, which in turn your kids can see. Refuse to argue, change the subject. If you are like us the arguments the same over and over so why do it? I`m going to try to get us to at least be friendly for a start, after that i`ll think of the next step. In my mind I have way to much to loose by loosing her. I guess I`m not the one to be giving advice. It`s just my opinion. Your right it does help to talk this over with someone that has a similar situation. When my wife first dropped this on me we didn`t even sleep in the same room for 2 months. Now we sleep in the same bed. I guess that`s a little progress.Let me know what you think.

nonplused, do you think she will ask you for a divorce? Have you given up? what will be your next step? I`m just asking because I haven`t been able to think that far ahead. I`m still at the stage of hoping she won`t leave. It would really be hard if she did with no family around.

Confused.......<BR> <P> To tell you the truth on the ? about do i want my marriage to work or not? I honestly don't know. We are like you drifted apart after being married almost 15 years. We don't have anything in common anymore I have even asked him that too. I don't want to argue at least not in front of the kids. I try and pretend when they are around but at times yes it is really hard. I know people change and some can change together but in my heart I think when the drifting apart comes sometimes there is no turning back understand? I know people throw up in my face in here well you took those marriage vows. Well yes I did so did thousands other people who did not last in there marriages. I just don't really know. Spouse has said to me I need someone to love me for who I am now not who I was. Well I think that goes both ways. He is great with the kids of coarse alot better now then in the past. He will always be there Dad no matter what. One good thing is though neither of us are vindictive people so we have agreed that what ever happens we stay friends. Alot use kids against the other parent that is so so wrong. I don't know how to help you Confused but if ya find an answer for the both of us please let me know. Thanks

Why do you think there is no turning back after you start drifting apart? I too, like my wife feel that we had drifted apart. But i also feel that in order to try to rekindle something between the two of us that we need to startsomewhere. I wanted to start slowly. To maybe go out to dinner once in a while. Do things together to see what happens. There was too much time put into this marriage and to much to give up not to try several different things. I don`t know what it would hurt her to try. She still is putting as much distance between us as she can and I don`t understand why. I haven`t done anything wrong, only tried to help her as much as possible. When we did talk several weeks ago she said she didn`t want to try, yet she is still here. She came home in a bad mood last night, must of had a bad work day, and everything I said to her, acted as if it was a pain to answe me. I don`t know what I`ve done to deserve this kind of treatment. I wanted to meet with an old friend of mine that told me he was in town today but she doesn`t know what time she will be home and the kids , the 2 younger ones have ball games tonight. It seems like my personal life doesn`t count to anyone. No one cares if Im happy or not. I haven`t been able to have adult conversation with anyone lately, besides at work , but once or twice a week. I guess it`s my turn to have a bad day.

double post removed<p>[This message has been edited by Alice (edited May 27, 1999).]