<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I believe I understand. The emotional energy I have for participation in these forums also seems to be rather low right now for some reason (probably because the legal demise of my marriage appears imminent, but I still don't have a final court date and I am getting really, really tired of living in limbo).</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>GnomeDePlume, <P>Your absence has been conspicuous lately. I know you're lurking around, and I know you are responding here and there, but they are sort of short and to the point--even for you. I suspect that this quote may have something to do with it. I wanted you to know that I miss you and my quantum physics just isn't as fun without you. Naturally, my favorite of the five main ideas presented in the Quantum Theory is: Energy is not continuous, but comes in small but discrete units--but of course that is because I AM a small but discrete unit! <P>You know, GDP, it is quite normal for your soul to be disquieted over the impending demise of your marriage. After all, you did have some hopes that this person, your wife, would take the time to get to know the YOU that is hidden (or at least hazy) from the rest of us. Furthermore, you were willing to show her! Suffering may be good for us, and it may be like the fire purifying the precious metal, but it still hurts, huh? I remember last week when I first moved out, that I also felt depressed. One thing that really helped me was a crooked little half hug from a friend--you know, someone who didn't hand them out to just anyone. But gee, I hug everybody! How about instead if I offer you a little bit of my sense of humor, and my ability to intelligently discuss Euclidean geometry or any other topic under the sun, and as much of my undying curiosity as you can take, and most of all, a portion of my admiration. You come here day after day, time after time, with wise advice and maturity beyond your years--all while you are going through this exact same mess that the rest of us are going through and for that, I'll always be impressed. <P>So, come on back and play. Tag you're it--I'll let you pick the topic of discussion. Here are some ideas: <BR>1) Quantum physics and the atomic "world"<BR>2) BMW motorcycles<BR>3) Nicknames when we were kids<BR>4) Jokes until you are sick<BR>5) What our fears are<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.<p>[This message has been edited by FaithfulWife (edited August 02, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>Your absence has been conspicuous lately. I know you're lurking around, and I know you are responding here and there, but they are sort of short and to the point--even for you. I suspect that this quote may have something to do with it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, it does. Although other factors have also been involved, such as family being in town for a visit.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I wanted you to know that I miss you and my quantum physics just isn't as fun without you. Naturally, my favorite of the five main ideas presented in the Quantum Theory is: Energy is not continuous, but comes in small but discrete units--but of course that is because I AM a small but discrete unit!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmm. I wonder. Perhaps the basic unit of <I>emotional</I> energy is the amount required for a discreet smile?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Suffering may be good for us, and it may be like the fire purifying the precious metal, but it still hurts, huh? I remember last week when I first moved out, that I also felt depressed. One thing that really helped me was a crooked little half hug from a friend--you know, someone who didn't hand them out to just anyone. But gee, I hug everybody! How about instead if I offer you a little bit of my sense of humor, and my ability to intelligently discuss Euclidean geometry or any other topic under the sun, and as much of my undying curiosity as you can take, and most of all, a portion of my admiration. You come here day after day, time after time, with wise advice and maturity beyond your years--all while you are going through this exact same mess that the rest of us are going through and for that, I'll always be impressed.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, CJ, whether or not it's your native language, it's apparent that you know exactly how to encourage me. I am very grateful.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>So, come on back and play. Tag you're it--I'll let you pick the topic of discussion. Here are some ideas: <BR>1) Quantum physics and the atomic "world"<BR>2) BMW motorcycles<BR>3) Nicknames when we were kids<BR>4) Jokes until you are sick<BR>5) What our fears are</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why be stingy? We can discuss <I>everything</I>!<P>1) This was covered above...<P>2) More than one pipedream at once seems excessive, but I <I>have</I> managed to sign up for a riding course this month...<P>3) You haven't taken me up yet on my offer to give you a single guess on what my nickname in elementary school was...<P>4) Personally, I tend to appreciate banter and repartee (to wit, 'wit') more than canned jokes...<P>5) Living my worst nightmare has deprived most of my pre-existing fears of most of their power. (Perhaps this is the only way an individual as risk-averse as myself could consider getting a motorcycle, especially at such a financially precarious time.) But my new greatest fear is that my wife will achieve mental and emotional health, realize what she has done, and be unable to get over the guilt or make amends because I have "moved on" with my life. Some would say that this fear is holding me back, and although everything within me cries out against such a judgement, my perpetual self-doubt and the INTP need to consider <I>everything</I> compel me to consider (and reconsider) the possibility. Fortunately, no flammable bridges have shown up on my current path of choice, and so I can defer dealing with this issue. But it lurks in the back of my mind...<BR>

All right - I read your last thread (had enough posts that it could make a xxl sweater) - Get a room!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HowlingAlone:<BR><B>All right - I read your last thread (had enough posts that it could make a xxl sweater) - Get a room!!! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We did. This is it. Can I get you anything?<P><BR>

Yes please, a glass of wisdom with a slice of humility coated with patience...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HowlingAlone:<BR><B>Yes please, a glass of wisdom with a slice of humility coated with patience...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That will be $1.65 please. And don't forget to leave a tip! (the waitress here is CUTE) <P>So, Howling, first I should warn you, it would be more like a cage than a room. <P>Second, there aren't too many interested in making jokes about quantum physics, but if you're feeling up to it, the door to this room is open!<P>Last but not least, you'd better stop ordering patience. I've had friends pray for me to learn patience, and look what God did!! <P><BR>CJ<P><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Gnome, I just typed you the longest, funniest reply--carried on five conversations at once AND discussed the Quantum Theory, and I lost it!! Forgot to put in my password and the computer timed out. <P>So, while I sit hear crying, I'll try to retype it all tomorrow. Bye.<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I had a life like that once. It timed out, and I lost it...<BR>

You know what? Please don't do that. I'm feeling blue and wierd and lonely today. I typed for about two hours and said a bunch of stuff I wanted to say and needed to say, and now it's just gone. Comparing that to the way our lives have gone is a little too painfully accurate! I want it back!! <P>I don't want to be sad and depressed today, but I sort of am. I think I feel my own pity, plus feel the sadness of some others around me, and DAMN I wish I could fix it or help or do SOMETHING and there's not a darn thing I can do except sit back and listen and hand people tissues and that's so little! <P>WHY DID THIS HAPPEN? WHY DID THIS HAPPEN TO ME, AND WHY DID IT HAPPEN TO US? Where are the stupid answers? Why can't we ever understand rather than this continuous splashing around in the dark? If I knew that I had to endure this part so I could get to this greater good, this happier life, or this level of maturity, I would be able to endure it so much easier! <P>WAAAAA. I wish I could hug the world, and I'm first in line!<P>CJ<P><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Sorry, CJ. But, as you know, this too shall pass.<P>{{{{{{CJ<P>I too have lost hours of work on something I thought I had finally gotten just right. But, as it turned out, the second time around I invariably got it even better.<P>Even so, I try not to tempt fate, and anything I do on a computer gets saved with great frequency. When posting anything of any length on this forum, I write my post in a text processor and paste it into the reply window here.<P>As for sitting back and listening and handing people tissues, why do you think that is so small a thing? It is often the smallest things in life that make the biggest difference.<P>And as for the questions without answers, well, I don't think wisdom is about having answers to our "why"s and "what will happen"s. I think wisdom is more about knowing the right thing to <I>do</I>.<P>Of course, I'll keep on asking the questions just the same. And although I've kinda gotten used to the pain, it still hurts as much as ever.<BR>

You know what? I too have gotten used to the pain, in the sense that I'm not nearly as bowled over by it as I used to be, but you know what honestly makes me angry? I have had ENOUGH pain! I am sick and tired of feeling this emptiness and I don't want to just "get used to it" like a chronic pain sufferer who will never get rid of it and who just learns to live through the pain. I want to feel good again and if not eliminate, at least alleviate, this rotten pain!! <P>Okay--this is really getting me nowhere other than just to get it off my chest, which has some value but not a ton. I tend to want to pick a goal--set steps toward the goal--do the steps--then achieve the goal. But if the goal is to end this infernal suffering, how do you set steps toward that goal? And furthermore, is that even the goal I really want to achieve? To be honest I don't really think so, because I see the value in the suffering; I am becoming a truly awesome person through this. So, I'm stuck! YUCK!<P>Now, regarding writing the big responses in a word processing software, I have learned that lesson the hard way. BELIEVE ME, when I write this again, it'll be in Word or WordPerfect!! In a way, though, I almost feel like I don't want to start again--trying to retype what I said before would be a monumental task. I'm almost thinking of just writing something altogether new. It's just a shame you missed it, because it was cool and now I'm the only one who will ever know. <P>Regarding sitting back and listening and handing people tissues, well...I wish I could be more productive than that. I guess there's a place in the world for the listeners, but I wish I could do more. This is hard to translate into Thinker, but wouldn't you just love it if your analysis and evaluation was so accurate and precise and correct that you were able to really help someone else? No, that won't work as an example, because that's true for you. Uhhhmmmm...okay. I feel like, exactly how much help can I REALLY be through a computer screen 1000 miles away from everyone? I can sympathize and empathize and listen until I'm blue in the face, but THAT'S IT! <P>Regarding wisdom, you know what's funny? I know what to do--although sometimes for my own life it's hard to see the forest for the trees. I just need to keep DOING it. I thought it was interesting when you wrote on another thread that the unfaithful spouse sins against themself, and I've been letting that jumble around in my head. I get frustrated with thoughts like "look what being faithful got me", but in real life you are right. Even though I will never be the same, some of that change is good and I still have most of my honor and values intact. <P>Well, sorry. I'm just rambling now. Do you need a towel or anything--maybe a mop to clean up after that tornado? <P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>I tend to want to pick a goal--set steps toward the goal--do the steps--then achieve the goal. But if the goal is to end this infernal suffering, how do you set steps toward that goal? And furthermore, is that even the goal I really want to achieve? To be honest I don't really think so, because I see the value in the suffering; I am becoming a truly awesome person through this. So, I'm stuck! YUCK!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sometimes our goals need to be revisited…<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>In a way, though, I almost feel like I don't want to start again--trying to retype what I said before would be a monumental task. I'm almost thinking of just writing something altogether new. It's just a shame you missed it, because it was cool and now I'm the only one who will ever know.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not to guilt you or anything, but... <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Regarding sitting back and listening and handing people tissues, well...I wish I could be more productive than that. I guess there's a place in the world for the listeners, but I wish I could do more. This is hard to translate into Thinker, but wouldn't you just love it if your analysis and evaluation was so accurate and precise and correct that you were able to really help someone else? No, that won't work as an example, because that's true for you. Uhhhmmmm...okay. I feel like, exactly how much help can I REALLY be through a computer screen 1000 miles away from everyone? I can sympathize and empathize and listen until I'm blue in the face, but THAT'S IT!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not everything needs to be translated into Thinker for me to understand it, CJ. I may speak pidgin Feeler, but in many cases that's all that's necessary. I too am frustrated by the limitations of this electronic medium. But, I figure if <I>I</I> can be touched by the warmth and empathy coming through the phosphors from the distributed virtual denizens here, then anybody can. Although...hmm...come to think of it, I guess I can’t really conclude that after all. As an Intuitive Thinker, the world of ideas supposedly seems more real to me than to, say, a Sensing type, and perhaps this (more than?) compensates for my low-definition Feeling receptors. But whatever: the sympathy, the empathy, and the listening ear are every bit as important as good advice. Even the blue face can be helpful. (Would that be the or the ?)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Well, sorry. I'm just rambling now. Do you need a towel or anything--maybe a mop to clean up after that tornado?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Naw. My place <I>always</I> looks like a tornado hit it…<BR>

Guess what? This post is too big for one post, so I shall split it into two. Here is part ONE:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Yes it does. Although other factors have also been involved,such as family being in town for a visit.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Relatives in town!! Oh no, you poor thing! Is there anything I can do? Haha. My gramma used to say that visiting relatives were like a really good fish? After two days, they start to stink! Anyway, was it at least a pleasant visit with family that you enjoyed seeing? OR was it a strained visit, like if my mom or dad came to stay over? Did they invade your space? Does that make them Space Invaders? Heehee<P>Regarding the quote, well, I had a feeling. You know, you are pretty subtle that way…you leave little clues around but you don’t come right out and say what’s up or whether you’re hurting or why. But I did mean it when I said that it’s natural to feel disquieted as the date approaches for your divorce to be finalized. After all, you loved this woman and hoped that she would take the time to get to know the YOU that is hidden to the rest of the world. You gave her your heart, your youth, your home and hearth, and yourself, and it hurts to lose that. It’s natural. But, I hope that while you have this sense of loss, you also remember the gains you have made: everything you have learned, all the friends and loved ones who have supported you, all the joy you have re-discovered…just don’t let the loss overwhelm you. Okay? I know you didn’t make a lot of hoopla out of it, but I remember how there was a time when you were depressed—so if the loss does start to overwhelm you, let someone know, will ya? <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Hmm. I wonder. Perhaps the basic unit of emotional energy is the amount required for a discreet smile?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Berry punny, berry punny That is a very interesting hypothesis, Dr. Know. How shall we test this hypothesis to see if it is accurate? Shall we see if the emotional energy needed to produce a discreet smile from a stranger is the same amount of the emotional energy needed to produce a discreet smile from a relative or loved one? How shall we measure the emotional energy—blood pressure, heart rate, respiratory rate or body temperature—or all four? Heehee<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Well, CJ, whether or not it's your native language, it's apparent that you know exactly how to encourage me. I am very grateful.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>YAY!! I’m clapping my hands and happy that it was helpful. BUT, I have to tell you that it really is not my natural language at all. I had a good teacher and I was a willing student, so I just did what you taught me to do. See? I really can listen!<P>BTW, that reminds me. I have never adequately taken the time to thank you for all of your lessons. I don’t know if you know it or not, but it has been very helpful to me to learn how you Thinkers look at the world. I still find it difficult to fully understand, don’t get me wrong, but boy, sometimes it just makes NO sense, and I am so grateful to have a funny friend to turn to who will patiently explain it to me (as much as possible, anyway). I also find your questions and comments to be quite challenging—they stop me from just intuitively doing what I do, and require me to think about what I’m doing and why. In many ways, I’ve learned a lot about myself either because I’ve had to explain stuff to you OR because I’ve had to see it from a different point of view. Anyway, in case you couldn’t tell, I’m very grateful that you’ve taken the time to be my mentor.<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Here is part Two:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Why be stingy? We can discuss everything!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Oh man, you better think before you challenge me to five conversations at once!! Are you SURE??? : Okay then…ready—set—go!<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>1) This was covered above...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>OH COME ON!! I KNOW you can do better than this. "See above"--haha!! I wanted to really discuss the atomic world—and maybe how it relates to our world. For example, let’s discuss the Copenhagen Interpretation. (For those of you following along, let me fill you in. Niels Bohr was a scientist who worked in Copenhagen when he presented what is now known as the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory: the atomic particle is what you measure it to be. When it looks like a particle, it is a particle. When it looks like a wave, it is a wave. Furthermore, it is meaningless to ascribe any properties or even existence to anything that has not been measured. Bohr is basically saying that nothing is real unless it is observed.) So what do you think? If nothing is real unless it is observed—is love real? What properties can you ascribe to love? How do you measure love? And if those units of measure are no longer there, does that mean the love no longer exists? Could that be why there are divorces and the "I love you but I’m not in love with you" speeches? <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> 2) More than one pipedream at once seems excessive, but I have managed to sign up for a riding course this month... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Okay, buddy, since you laid down this challenge of five conversations at once, I will challenge you right back. If owning a BMW motorcycle is a pipedream, then what are your real dreams? Do you think that real dreams are worthwhile, or are all dreams just "pie in the sky" and thus not worth spending time considering? <P>I have a couple real dreams, meaning dreams that I intend to set as goals, take steps to achieve the dreams, and eventually one day, achieve. I want to get to the Pacific Ocean here pretty soon—I love the water in general and the ocean specifically, and I’ve never been to the Pacific. Although I’ve been to about 44 of the 48 states, I’d like to travel to the four that I haven’t been to: Arizona, California, Oregon and Washington State. Some day (maybe in ten years or so!!) I’d also like to see Hawaii and Alaska, but I intend to cruise to see them Other than that, I think I have everything I’d ever want or need. <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> 3) You haven't taken me up yet on my offer to give you a single guess on what my nickname in elementary school was... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well, I guess Spock. It was the late 60’s early 70’s, wasn’t it? I would be interested to hear your guess of my nickname, but unlike you, I shall give you a pity clue. My nickname in elementary school was actually nothing like me. Not even close!! When you find out, you will laugh for 20 minutes!<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> 4) Personally, I tend to appreciate banter and repartee (to wit, 'wit')more than canned jokes... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Oh…do you mean satire, witticism, drollery, parody, lampoonery, witty comeback, snappy reply, clever puns, double entendre and innuendo? Hmmm? (batting my eyelashes innocently) Like you, I tend to prefer intelligent, sarcastic wit to outright jokes, but I can also say that there is a time and a place for jokes. I really enjoy the fun of matching wits with…well you know, Dennis Miller…but there have been days when I felt low, depressed and just unable to carry on, and it is amazing what 100 goofy, canned jokes in a row can do to brighten your day. After about 30 or so, you just can’t be blue anymore—you can’t help but snicker a little (quietly and to yourself, of course). <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> 5) Living my worst nightmare has deprived most of my pre-existing fears of most of their power. (Perhaps this is the only way an individual as risk-averse as myself could consider getting a motorcycle, especially at such a financially precarious time.) But my new greatest fear is that my wife will achieve mental and emotional health, realize what she has done, and be unable to get over the guilt or make amends because I have "moved on" with my life. Some would say that this fear is holding me back, and although everything within me cries out against such a judgement, my perpetual self-doubt and the INTP need to consider everything compel me to consider (and reconsider) the possibility. Fortunately, no flammable bridges have shown up on my current path of choice, and so I can defer dealing with this issue. But it lurks in the back of my mind...<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Well, now you’ve done it. This is definitely NOT an easy topic to write about, and to be honest with you, the first time I lost this response, this answer is mainly why I cried. You need to know that I am more than a little uncomfortable telling people my greatest fear, because you will know my vulnerable point. BUT, since you were brave and open with me, I will return the favor. <P>You are right on one point. Having lived through my worst nightmare has really made many of my fears seem sort of toothless. I mean, how bad could it be? I lived through a living nightmare, and surprisingly, I came out stronger and wiser, and I’m not kidding when I say that I am surprised (and pleased) to discover how strong I am. However, that being said, what I fear now is that I will have waited and waited and waited (and showed absolutely Job-ian patience), and after all this time, my husband will decide that I am such a pain in the [censored] that I’m not worth the effort. So after almost 15 years of waiting and longing and aching for him, he won’t long or ache for me. Okay, actually, this fear pretty much haunts me, especially now that I have moved out and he is faced with the prospect of dealing with his anger. I am terrified that he will decide he does not want to deal with it, and just move on, and I’ll be…well, I guess I’ll be back where I have already been, huh? <P>It’s funny you should mention that some have said that this fear is holding you back—several of my own well-meaning friends and relatives have said something similar to me, and like you, everything within me cries out "NO!" Sometimes, I get so tired of wondering and second-guessing, though: could it be that I am fooling myself? Am I being blind to the obvious? <P>I have a great idea. How about if we just go with our hearts, wait for our spouses, and tell each other quantum physics jokes until they realize how wonderful we are? <P><BR>Gnome, this was not easy for me to rewrite. When I first wrote it and lost it, I was so discouraged, I just thought, "forget it". But between you and my hubby, you guys helped me to realize that it would be worth trying again. So here ya go. <P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.<P>[This message has been edited by FaithfulWife (edited August 06, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by FaithfulWife (edited August 06, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>Relatives in town!! Oh no, you poor thing! Is there anything I can do? Haha. My gramma used to say that visiting relatives were like a really good fish? After two days, they start to stink! Anyway, was it at least a pleasant visit with family that you enjoyed seeing? OR was it a strained visit, like if my mom or dad came to stay over? Did they invade your space? Does that make them Space Invaders? Heehee</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The visit was pleasant, although when my parents come over they are always looking for something to do in the house or yard and I find it difficult to keep up with even one of them, let alone both. (That's not a complaint, because they are actually very helpful - as well as supportive - and they always leave the place in better shape than when they arrive.)<P>My current guest(s?) is (are?) less welcome, and are uninvited. They also are not family, or at least not <I>my</I> family. But although they keep pretty much to themselves, I am trying to work myself up to evict them. I doubt they will go unless I resort to violence...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>But I did mean it when I said that it's natural to feel disquieted as the date approaches for your divorce to be finalized. After all, you loved this woman and hoped that she would take the time to get to know the YOU that is hidden to the rest of the world. You gave her your heart, your youth, your home and hearth, and yourself, and it hurts to lose that. It's natural. But, I hope that while you have this sense of loss, you also remember the gains you have made: everything you have learned, all the friends and loved ones who have supported you, all the joy you have re-discovered…just don't let the loss overwhelm you. Okay? I know you didn't make a lot of hoopla out of it, but I remember how there was a time when you were depressed—so if the loss does start to overwhelm you, let someone know, will ya?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am keeping close tabs on my emotional state, but I have not really noticed anything that concerns me. My feelings <I>do</I> seem to be natural, as you say, and I actually expect them to get a lot worse before they get much better. But I have learned that by just going with the flow of my feelings I am much less likely to get into real trouble, and since it has been well over a year now since I experienced a depressive episode, I would be surprised at this point if my feelings overwhelm me. Still, I have a support network set up, and after struggling with depression for several years I eventually developed the ability to detect an episode coming on several days before it really hit. So I think I'll be all right (where "all right" is defined fairly broadly).<P>But thank you for your concern. It is appreciated.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>That is a very interesting hypothesis, Dr. Know. How shall we test this hypothesis to see if it is accurate? Shall we see if the emotional energy needed to produce a discreet smile from a stranger is the same amount of the emotional energy needed to produce a discreet smile from a relative or loved one? How shall we measure the emotional energy—blood pressure, heart rate, respiratory rate or body temperature—or all four? Heehee</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am a Thinker, and my domain is Theory. I shall leave Experimentation to others...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>BTW, that reminds me. I have never adequately taken the time to thank you for all of your lessons.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You have thanked me frequently, to a degree I would have thought to be more than adequate. Just how much thanks do you consider necessary? Perhaps this points to another personality difference, and my own expressions of gratitude generally tend to be substandard. I shall have to watch for this...<P>(I am still struggling to understand the purpose behind simple greetings, as when you pass someone you know - or don't know - in the hall. You see each other, and it is clear that both of you are aware of the other's presence, so what is there to say? The mystery behind the rituals doesn't preclude me from following them, at least to a passable extent, but I doubt I will ever achieve an instinctive level of socialization.)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I don't know if you know it or not, but it has been very helpful to me to learn how you Thinkers look at the world. I still find it difficult to fully understand, don't get me wrong, but boy, sometimes it just makes NO sense, and I am so grateful to have a funny friend to turn to who will patiently explain it to me (as much as possible, anyway). I also find your questions and comments to be quite challenging—they stop me from just intuitively doing what I do, and require me to think about what I'm doing and why. In many ways, I've learned a lot about myself either because I've had to explain stuff to you OR because I've had to see it from a different point of view. Anyway, in case you couldn't tell, I'm very grateful that you've taken the time to be my mentor.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, you're certainly welcome, but I hope you don't become <I>too</I> much of a Thinker. If you get stopped from following your intuition too often, paralysis might ensue, and then you get to start thinking about what you're <I>not</I> doing and why.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>OH COME ON!! I KNOW you can do better than this. "See above"--haha!! I wanted to really discuss the atomic world—and maybe how it relates to our world. For example, let's discuss the Copenhagen Interpretation. (For those of you following along, let me fill you in. Niels Bohr was a scientist who worked in Copenhagen when he presented what is now known as the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory: the atomic particle is what you measure it to be. When it looks like a particle, it is a particle. When it looks like a wave, it is a wave. Furthermore, it is meaningless to ascribe any properties or even existence to anything that has not been measured. Bohr is basically saying that nothing is real unless it is observed.) So what do you think? If nothing is real unless it is observed—is love real? What properties can you ascribe to love? How do you measure love? And if those units of measure are no longer there, does that mean the love no longer exists? Could that be why there are divorces and the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speeches?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am actually more intrigued by <I>Bohm's</I> ideas than <I>Bohr's</I>. (I guess you could say I think Bohr's a bore, while Bohm's the bomb.) Not that I <I>understand</I> Bohm's ideas (or Bohr's for that matter), but basically Bohm proposed an alternative to the Copenhagen interpretation in which he denied the concept of locality.<P>Thus the WS can superficially distance him/herself from his/her spouse, and a divorce can <I>appear</I> to sever the relationship between a husband and a wife, but at a deeper level of reality they are still together and connected.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Okay, buddy, since you laid down this challenge of five conversations at once, I will challenge you right back. If owning a BMW motorcycle is a pipedream, then what are your real dreams? Do you think that real dreams are worthwhile, or are all dreams just "pie in the sky" and thus not worth spending time considering?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think everyone ought to have dreams. Life would be petty and boring without them. Although, there is a hazard in dreams, in that they can seduce us away from living in the present. As in everything, balance is necessary.<P>Trying to decide whether to pursue a dream can be difficult. Reality is not infinitely malleable. Ever since I got my last degree I dreamed about getting a doctorate, becoming a philosopher scientist, and dwelling in the hallowed halls of academia. But the more I researched the idea the more I came to suspect that if I were to follow the siren call of my dream I would discover that those halls were more hellhole than hallowed. I have little tolerance for personal politics and little interest in grantsmanship.<P>But while the idea of an academic career has lost most of its luster, the dream of getting a doctorate remains. Of late I have actually begun to consider the idea of looking into psychotherapy as a second or secondary career. ...<P>The exact contents of our dreams do not matter so much as having the dreams, I think. The dreams tell us that we do not have to be defined by our current constraints. (Mere goals do not do this, I think. Goals should be realistic, and therefore we need to have some idea of how we are going to achieve them.)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I have a couple real dreams, meaning dreams that I intend to set as goals, take steps to achieve the dreams, and eventually one day, achieve. I want to get to the Pacific Ocean here pretty soon—I love the water in general and the ocean specifically, and I've never been to the Pacific. Although I've been to about 44 of the 48 states, I'd like to travel to the four that I haven't been to: Arizona, California, Oregon and Washington State.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You believe in saving the best for last, I see. Yosemite is absolutely unbelievable (although I can't help but wonder whether it has been touristed to death by now). And the Pacific coastline is incredible as well.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Well, I guess Spock. It was the late 60's early 70's, wasn't it? I would be interested to hear your guess of my nickname, but unlike you, I shall give you a pity clue. My nickname in elementary school was actually nothing like me. Not even close!! When you find out, you will laugh for 20 minutes!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, my nickname was not "Spock". It was "Computer". It's still the only real nickname I've ever had (unless you count "Gnome" OR "GDP") Which may say as much about me as the nickname itself...<P>For your nickname, as unoriginal as it may seem, based on your clue I myself can't think of a better guess than "Spock". <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>Well, now you’ve done it. This is definitely NOT an easy topic to write about, and to be honest with you, the first time I lost this response, this answer is mainly why I cried. You need to know that I am more than a little uncomfortable telling people my greatest fear, because you will know my vulnerable point. BUT, since you were brave and open with me, I will return the favor. <P>You are right on one point. Having lived through my worst nightmare has really made many of my fears seem sort of toothless. I mean, how bad could it be? I lived through a living nightmare, and surprisingly, I came out stronger and wiser, and I’m not kidding when I say that I am surprised (and pleased) to discover how strong I am. However, that being said, what I fear now is that I will have waited and waited and waited (and showed absolutely Job-ian patience), and after all this time, my husband will decide that I am such a pain in the [censored] that I’m not worth the effort. So after almost 15 years of waiting and longing and aching for him, he won’t long or ache for me. Okay, actually, this fear pretty much haunts me, especially now that I have moved out and he is faced with the prospect of dealing with his anger. I am terrified that he will decide he does not want to deal with it, and just move on, and I’ll be…well, I guess I’ll be back where I have already been, huh?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>CJ, I appreciate your courage in exposing your fears not once, but twice. Do you find that facing your fears weakens them? That's been my experience.<P>Whatever happens, CJ, I can't believe that your husband will decide that <I>you</I> are not worth the effort. As painful as it may be to admit, it <I>is</I> possible that your husband will decide he doesn't want to deal with you and your marriage. But if he makes that decision, it will be because he doesn't believe that <I>he</I> is worth the effort.<P>I am tempted to say that the possibility of my wife never "reconciling" with me is my <I>second</I> greatest fear, but I'm not sure that would be true. It is probably the second most <I>painful</I> prospect for me to face, because I hate the idea of someone I love so much spending the rest of her days running from herself. But living the rest of my life alone does not really <I>frighten</I> me. If that's what happens, there are things I want very much that I will miss out on. But there are other things I will <I>not</I> miss out on, and the important thing for me is to know that I will be able to look back on my life without regret. I would rather risk everything for the right cause than live my life knowing that I didn't give faith and love a chance.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>It’s funny you should mention that some have said that this fear is holding you back—several of my own well-meaning friends and relatives have said something similar to me, and like you, everything within me cries out "NO!" Sometimes, I get so tired of wondering and second-guessing, though: could it be that I am fooling myself? Am I being blind to the obvious?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Even though I ask myself those questions, I don't <I>worry</I> about them too much. If I'm not <I>ready</I> to "move on", then I shouldn't move on. And if I haven't got anywhere in particular to go, then I might as well be where I am. (Ever notice that those who say you should "move on" don't seem able to tell you where you should be going?) I don't see the point in dating or marrying some other woman just for the sake of "having a relationship". I figure if ever I find myself in internal conflict about my position, I will just have to deal with the situation then. In the meantime, my questions on the matter remain academic.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I have a great idea. How about if we just go with our hearts, wait for our spouses, and tell each other quantum physics jokes until they realize how wonderful we are? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That sounds like as good a plan as any. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Gnome, this was not easy for me to rewrite. When I first wrote it and lost it, I was so discouraged, I just thought, "forget it". But between you and my hubby, you guys helped me to realize that it would be worth trying again. So here ya go. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks, CJ.<BR>

I'm sending this to the top because I hope to write to you tonight. I have DSL connection at home, and tonight I would like to catch up with some of my friends.<P>See ya later!<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B> Not everything needs to be translated into Thinker for me to understand it, CJ. I may speak pidgin Feeler, but in many cases that's all that's necessary. …</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I love this quote, Monsieur GDP! Methinks I am in the same boat - which is almost a tragedy for a woman. I try so hard to "think" what certian things must "feel" like.<P>Getting divorced, it's so easy to focus on how I feel. I keep accusing him of not being empathetic - or is it empathic. Either one of those would be good!<P>This week, I keep hitting that truth of . . . what you hate most in others is somehow a reflection of yourself, or your own fears. It this some cosmic, karmic truth I must learn here and now before I proceed?<P>------------------<BR>Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and it annoys the pig!

Oh boy. I think this one is going to be a double or triple post reply. Then again, it will make an interesting book, so here I go!<P>Part One:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Not everything needs to be translated into Thinker for me to understand it, CJ. I may speak pidgin Feeler, but in many cases that's all that's necessary. I too am frustrated by the limitations of this electronic medium. But, I figure if I can be touched by the warmth and empathy coming through the phosphors from the distributed virtual denizens here, then anybody can. Although...hmm...come to think of it, I guess I can’t really conclude that after all. As an Intuitive Thinker, the world of ideas supposedly seems more real to me than to, say, a Sensing type, and perhaps this (more than?) compensates for my low-definition Feeling receptors. But whatever: the sympathy, the empathy, and the listening ear are every bit as important as good advice. Even the blue face can be helpful. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Okay, you are right. Thank you for the gentle chastisement—or as they say in the sorority, "Thank you, may I have another?" (heehee). When I was in college I never did join a tradition sorority, but I started several: I P T which was Greek for "I Phelta Thi" and T K D which was, of course, "Tappa Kegga Da" In reality of course you are right, I don’t need to translate everything into Thinker for you to understand. I was just trying to give you an example out of your own life, but in a way that was also the tiniest little bit insulting, wasn’t it? Sorry. In case you can’t tell, it was entirely unintentional; nonetheless, I apologize if it bugged you and humbly request your forgiveness. There—all better, I hope. <P>So, is there a pidgin Feeler dictionary? Is my photo in there? I’m still trying to figure out why the flying rats of New York City speak Feeler, but oh well, Gnome, I believe you. I would have pictured that they would speak "Sopranos" not Feeler, but what do I know. Also, I have to admit that I never knew that my empathy leaked through the phosphors from the distributed virtual denizens. Is THAT what made the mess at your place? Do you need some help cleaning up? <P>Well, enough kidding around. I am serious about apologizing if that "translation" came across as a little bit condescending to you, and I am also serious about saying thank you for the mice words about the oozing empathy. In all honesty, it’s hard for me to tell exactly what comes across on a computer screen, and I’m glad to hear that at least some of the support and stuff comes across. That’s encouraging.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> My current guest(s?) is (are?) less welcome, and are uninvited. They also are not family, or at least not my family. But although they keep pretty much to themselves, I am trying to work myself up to evict them. I doubt they will go unless I resort to violence... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Gee, don’t take this wrong but this doesn’t sound so good. I know it’s a little intrusive, but who is (are) your current guest(s)? Are you going to have to throw them out by the scruff of their collar (so to speak)?<P>Look forward to Part Two, the continuing saga!<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.