It's 7:30. She and the kids are upstairs, asleep. I'm going to take a shower and get ready for the day.<P>I feel strangely calm right now; I'm either in intense denial here, or I see things very very clearly. I'm not sure which. I know she wants to file for divorce soon. This is not a trial separation. But I still see the potential underneath it all. I believe she's acting out of fear and fog- fear that she's no longer 28, fear of the work it would take to rebuild our marriage, and fog over the EA. If she could clear that fog away from her head, we could get somewhere.<P>Last night, as I tucked in our six-year-old daughter, I reiterated some important messages- we both love her, we will both do everything we can to take care of her, we will still have some family times together. You can call mom from my house anytime you want, and visa-versa. Sometimes, mom will come over here to visit, and I'll go over there as well.<P>"Will you sleep over?" she asked.<P>"Probably not," I told her. "I won't be there in the mornings." I wish I'd had the nerve to just say "No," instead of "Probably not." It might be better for her to have no expectations. But my instinct was to let her down easily.<P>I'll post more through the day, and later tonight.<BR>

Dabigtrain....are you okay???<P>Been thinking about you all day, had a bad one myself, too.<P>The kids ALWAYS suffer the most here because they don't understand on any level. I am dealing with my kids different reactions every day. Putting on a brave face is getting wearing!!!<P>The fog....I hate it. Underneath is a totally loving and well-loved man. I wish it was gone, too, nut it will only go when the WS's are good and ready.<P>Please post to let us know how you are...lots of us know what you are going through.<P>Jacky

I'm doing fairly well.<P>First load gone. This experience so far is nothing like some of the things I've read on this board. No tears; I don't even feel like I'm fighting them back. I've either shut down emotionally, or I've detached even farther.<P>Weird thing: as the caravan of divorced women driving pickups left, she thanked me, as she has before, for "being so good about this." A quick smootch, and she was on her way. And she wants to divorce me? I don't think she knows what she wants, and is grasping and the first answer that comes by.<p>[This message has been edited by dabigtrain (edited August 04, 2001).]

No, they don't know what they want and that's why they go; to find out. It's up to us now to prove to them that what they want is US!!!<P>You probably are in a bit of a fog right now yourself, I remember I felt numb until he came to say goodbye. Hugged me, kissed my cheek, said something like he was sorry, and left. Fortunately I didn't break down completely until he was out of sight. I didn't want to do that.<P>I'm still having a hard time today. My H is in a one act play festival tonight, cameo-ing as a soldier returned from the war, and the plays are being judged tonight. I have to get in touch with him, but when I phone, he just doesn't answer, so I SMS'd him twice. The second time I wrote something like "I wish you all the best tonight. I hope you win, you deserve it. Please call me about tomorrow's arrangements." Y'know, love bank stuff....<P>That was a few hours ago and still no reply. Oh I hate this, I really do.

Train and Nina-feel like we three are always in the same place.<P>You are both right-they don't know what they want, and I heard the same thing-"need time and space to figure things out". It maybe is not a bad thing, but the waiting is excruciating, not knowing what they are thinking, seeing them bounce around, bouncing around yourself. There has been no A in my case, but the fog is still thick for my W I think. I just keep plugging at Plan while I can, and work on myself. Still, it is driving me nuts, and my mind is always going 1000 miles an hour.<P>Nina, o got some good advice here a few days ago-don't try to figure them out, to understand what they are thinking-it can't be done, and it will make you crazy.<P>In the last few days when i have been tempted to analyze every word fro a good or a bad sign, i have tried to remember that advice.<P>Train, hang in ther, let us know how it goes.<P>You are both in my thoughts today.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nina too:<BR>You probably are in a bit of a fog right now yourself, I remember I felt numb until he came to say goodbye. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You may be right, but I still feel like I'm coming out of a fog. It's been five months since my wife told me she wanted a separation. The first two months, I was so ashamed I told no one except my mother. I took all the troubles on myself, and in my mind absolved her of responsibility. The last few months have been a process of seeing the ways in which she contributed to this impasse, the ways she withdrew from our marriage and our home. I think I have a pretty clear view now. <P>The other fog was my mistaken notion that her idea of "separation" was temporary, that she wanted to work things out. That fog is gone. She says she wants independence. She's gone to counseling and Retrouvaille with me, but only to ease the split, to understand it better, to help me process it- never to heal the marriage. And of course, with EA man in the back of her head all the time. So, there's no stopping her. Only she can stop her.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...I SMS'd him twice. The second time I wrote something like "I wish you all the best tonight. I hope you win, you deserve it. Please call me about tomorrow's arrangements." Y'know, love bank stuff....<P>That was a few hours ago and still no reply. Oh I hate this, I really do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's a shame. But if it's honest, if you do hope he wins, keep it up. It's better for you.<P>Barry<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by dabigtrain (edited August 04, 2001).]

dabigtrain where are you???<P>Yeah, don't we all three seem to stick together?<P>I have been crying into my wine since I last wrote. Rotten day, so I aim to get rotten, though I know it's not the answer.<P>So, so unfair, our situation. I'm only in this country because I wanted to be the good wife, and support him in his career. I told him those exact words before we left and I also said I thought it would be hard on our marriage. He acknowledged that during counselling, but it was like, sorry, but...Now he's been a manager for six months and it's goodbye Jacky. Even his mum said he's only where he is because of me.<P>I feel SO cheated today. Sorry for busting your thread dabigtrain.

dabigtrain where are you???<P>Yeah, don't we all three seem to stick together?<P>I have been crying into my wine since I last wrote. Rotten day, so I aim to get rotten, though I know it's not the answer.<P>So, so unfair, our situation. I'm only in this country because I wanted to be the good wife, and support him in his career. I told him those exact words before we left and I also said I thought it would be hard on our marriage. He acknowledged that during counselling, but it was like, sorry, but...Now he's been a manager for six months and it's goodbye Jacky. Even his mum said he's only where he is because of me.<P>I feel SO cheated today. Sorry for busting your thread dabigtrain.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nina too:<BR>dabigtrain where are you???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I ran into work for a mintue, then came home and put on some loud music and swept up the dust bunnies that had hidden for years behind the furniture she's moving. The moving crew came back for another load; I took the kids to the pool in the park, and then came home and read a book to my son before his nap. <P>I'm still quite calm. I don't know what's going to happen later when I drive the kids over there (they're spending the weekend at her house) and say good bye. I'll let you know. I have several friends who are planning to call me at various times this weekend.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have been crying into my wine since I last wrote. Rotten day, so I aim to get rotten, though I know it's not the answer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, don't make a habit of it, but think of it this way perhaps: A few weeks ago, my wife and I had a long and tiring week. Besides the troubles you know about, she had a tonsillectomy, I sprained my ankle, and the kids' day care provider was on her yearly two-week vacation. By Saturday night, I had to get out of the house. <P>It was about 10:30 pm. I told her I was going to go down the street to a local bar and have a beer or two. "Alone?" she asked. "Couldn't you call someone to meet you there?"<P>"No, not at 10:30 on Saturday night," I told her. <P>"It sounds sad and lonely," she said.<P>"Well, I'm feeling sad and lonely, so I'm just going to be that for a while. It's the only way to get through it." I told her. So I went and sat alone, read the paper and drank two beers, listening to the happy conversations around me. I don't want to do it again- and I only know that because I did it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I feel SO cheated today. Sorry for busting your thread dabigtrain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No problem with the thread-busting. I'd feel cheated in your shoes as well.<P>

dabigtrain - I wanted to offer my prayers. I think I understand your position; I separated on 06/28/01. Circumstances were a little different than yours. The kids were probably one of the biggest reasons I stayed "reasonably" grounded the first few weeks. <P> I've come to realize, even though I did NOT want this separation, that it is a first step to something much better. Either with or without her.<P> It's hard to believe that they think this is the path to take!

Well thank you, you really are sweet to say that. Oh and sorry I posted twice, I don't know what happened; my server went down at one point.<P>Still a s*** day. I made it worse for myself.<P>He did eventually call back and I was SO saccharine I made MYSELF sick!!! OH, hi, I really do wish you well tonight, etc. He thanked me and we did make arrangements quite cordially for tomorrow. I want to make arrangements for our FUTURE!!! I honestly don't know how I do it, keeping tp Plan A when I want to wring his neck for being so stupid...yes I am angry tonight!!!<P>Three wines down the track I rang suspected (and definetly past) OW's cell number just to see if she was still there, and guess what, it's an invalid number now. AND all this past six months, since the A, and we've been working on it, I've rung her number, again not to talk, just see if she's still around, and I've got her answering service every time.<BR>Boy does this get me thinking!!! Reason is she phoned ME when he was away in Feb. several times, and we got the number changed. So did my H tell he to change it in case I harrassed her? <P>Not a good day, for you or me.<P>Have you considered you have the calm before the storm syndrome? I have, one day I'm gonna blow up!!!<P>But Emmy Lou Harris (country singer, I suppose you know) sings a song called "The Darkest Hour is Just Before the Dawn". I really like that title.<P>And to quote from Gilbert and Sullivan's Pirates of Penzance, dabigtrain "Take Heart, fair days will shine"<P>Jacky<BR>

You guys are all in the hardest part of it right now. BTDT <P>I know the suffering you are feeling and I just want to say I am sorry. <BR>But I wish I could put all of you in a time machine rush you into the future and show you what you will feel 2 years from now. There is light at the end of the tunnel. You will get thru this, the most important thing for you to do now is think about you. Start to visualize your life as what you want it to be where you want to go and what it is you want to do. Right now your spouses see you as weak and lonely, and no one wants a weak person to them you have nothing to offer. <BR>This is going to be hard to do but you must start to project yourself as strong and independent, show them you are moving on with your life building something without them. Right now the OM/OW is something new exciting. They know you and your life, so make them wonder about your new life, change your habits places people you see and go with, become that new and exciting person to them. <P>People are strange they want what they cannot have or what they think is different. <P>If they come back after doing all this then great but if they don't you well are on your way to a full life without them and better prepared to deal with a D if it comes to it. <P>Sometimes they need to experience it and live out their fantasy but rarely does the fantasy they are dreaming of match the reality. Be friendly loving and concerned but do not go out of your way to help them out, let them fail on their own. <P>I know all this sounds strange coming from a divorced man, but I learned many things during my divorce, and since then I have sat down with my X and discussed all the things I did wrong during the separation and what I could have done different that could and would have turned things around, I did learn that sometimes there is nothing you can do, the cards have got to play out.<P>At one point I was a crazy man near suicide and always in a panic attack, fast forward 2 1/2 years my X's life has turned to crap and she decided she wanted me again, Too LATE, now mine is a great adventure and I am engaged to the most beautiful sensitive woman in the world and in a month I will be heading for a new country to marry her. <P>Life is full of twist and turns but you guys will make it out of this fog you are in. It takes the magic of time to do it but you will get there. <P>Hang tuff guys and my thoughts and prayers are with you. <P> <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Tater_tot (edited August 04, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Family Man:<BR>I wanted to offer my prayers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks- I need all I can get. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> It's hard to believe that they think this is the path to take!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can remember saying that, as politely as I could: our problem is the distance between us, the lack of connection, the cross-communication- how will any of that get better by getting farther apart? But if by doing this, she finds out that I'm not the problem, we might get somewhere.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nina too:<BR>I honestly don't know how I do it, keeping tp Plan A when I want to wring his neck for being so stupid...yes I am angry tonight!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe it's a guy thing, but I'm able to deal with anger by:<BR>- putting on Elvis Costello and singing along loudly (<I>This Year's Model</I> is a great "angry album.")<BR>- running, biking, exercising hard in some way<BR>- hammering nails into wood is always useful- maybe you should build a new wall somewhere in your house?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So did my H tell he to change [phone number] in case I harrassed her? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You won't ever know- and I don't think you're making yourself feel better by ringing her up.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Have you considered you have the calm before the storm syndrome? I have, one day I'm gonna blow up!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Speaking of storms, it's ironic that right now, in the Gulf of Mexico, is Tropical Storm Barry (my real name). Watch out! Hurricane Barry's coming! <P>I think you're right that one day you're going to blow up, unless you find a way to release the pressure before it gets to that point. I refer to it as the earthquake syndrome- the pressure on the fault line builds and builds with no release, until one day, it all goes. The violence of the release of pressure is extreme- if the pressure could have been released in small increments, moment by moment, the violence could be avoided. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And to quote from Gilbert and Sullivan's Pirates of Penzance, dabigtrain "Take Heart, fair days will shine"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Here's a strange tidbit of info: in January-March of this year, I was directing <I>Pirates</I> for a local community theater, and it was a god-awful mess. They were terribly disorganized. This was about the time that my wife was sinking into depression so deep that she would drive to work crying, pull her self together enough to teach, get into her car, and drive home crying, and pull herself together enough to walk in the door and hide it from me. I, meanwhile, was depressed because I could feel her withdrawing from me, though I didn't know how to express it at the time. So I just tried to make life as easy as I could, I'll do all the dishes, all the laundry, I won't pry into why you're so distant from me, I won't nag, I'll just wait until you're ready to talk.<P>She went to visit her mom for a week, on her spring break. Took the kids along, leaving me quite lonely- but that's what she needs, I thought to myself, so I'll support it. <P>When she came back is when she told me she wanted a separation. <P>So, it's a funny-strange coincidence that you would quote <I>Pirates</I> to me. Not that you could have known, but I don't have very happy associations with that show.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater_tot:<BR>But I wish I could put all of you in a time machine rush you into the future and show you what you will feel 2 years from now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks for your thoughts- I know in my head that you're right. I'm still a long way from feeling that knowledge elsewhere, in my soul.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is going to be hard to do but you must start to project yourself as strong and independent, show them you are moving on with your life building something without them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, I know you're right. The odd thing is, one of the stereotypical "things a WS says" that my wife has said to me is "I'm the wrong woman for you, I'm holding you back, you'll be happier without me, with someone else." So, when I get my life together, she'll just say "yep, I told you so, I left him, and look how happy he is now." Of course, what am I going to do, be miserable in order to prove her wrong?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sometimes they need to experience it and live out their fantasy but rarely does the fantasy they are dreaming of match the reality. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mr. Hammer, meet Mr. Nail. My thumbnail description of my wife's situation is mid-life crisis and one-sided emotional affair, with a man who has three children by two ex-wives. I haven't confronted her, but I'm sure of it- he's holding back, she's pursuing. She thinks he's her perfect soulmate- even though he ignored her for 12 years. I don't know if I'd rather he went away forever, or did something to disillusion her (like what- show up at her house with a new girlfriend? Or one of his exes- that would be nice- "Hi! I'm re-marrying her!"), or if I'd rather they just got on with it, turned it physical, moved in together, so they could see what a mess it would be. The bloom would come off that rose rather quickly.<P>

Boy, this is great- if we keep this up, I'm finally going to get one of those "flame" icons near a thread I've started!<P>Small change of plans- about mid-afternoon, with all the heavy stuff moved, she sent her friends home. She isn't half-moved, but she's beat. Instead of taking a third load, and then having me bring the kids over at dinnertime, she and the kids just left, and I'll head over about their bedtime to say good night.<P>"What!?" you ask. "She's wants a divorce, but she wants you over to her house to read to the kids?" Yeah, I'm getting mixed messages. She wants a divorce, but she wants family time together. I'm going to have to figure out what my boundaries are on that. <P>On Labor Day weekend, I have a large software upgrade to manage at work. The other night, as we were discussing the kid schedule, I reminded her that Labor Day Weekend had to be "her" weekend for that reason. "Oh, that's right, I remember that," she said. "You're going to be there that whole weekend, aren't you? (pause) Well, the kids and I will have to bring you dinner." That would be nice... <I> and you want to divorce me?</I><P>So, anyway, I helped the kids into their carseats, and told them I'd see them a little later. My wife hugged me, hard, and thanked me for all my help (I really didn't do much- I wasn't going to help at all, then, well, I helped carry a couple of larger pieces of furniture out the door). It was one of those rare times, in the last few months, when I broke the clinch before she did. She drove off. I came inside and came to this site. I would be truly miseable without you folks to vent to. Thanks to you all.

dabigtrain,<P>Thinking of you today and following your posts. I am glad God has given you such peace today. I had written a longer post but I hit esc key and lost it all. I guess I had to learn that lesson sometime. I spent day alone hoping my H would call or come by. Loaded and took 4 pickup loads of brush/tree limbs to the landfill today. I am exhausted, physically but even more so emotionally. <P>All day, I have beat myself up for "expecting" my H to come by. I've realized that my problems all revolve around my expectations...<P>I expected him to love me forever, I expected him to be a good father, I expected him to tell me if something was wrong, I expected him to be faithful, I expected him to care if he hurts me and the kids, I expected him to be honest, etc......<P>Don't mean to be so depressing. I am glad you were able to get through the day and that your W is interested in spending time with you and your kids. I completely understand about you saying you have to establish some boundaries about family time.<P>If you figure out how to do that without LBing, please let me know. I'm clueless.<P>God Bless and good night!<P>L

9:05. I went over to her house about 7:30 to read a goodnight story to the kids. Our daughter asked if I was going to come over every night. Sorry, honey, no.<P>Then my wife and I sat down for about half an hour. She apologized for the mess I had to clean up- dust bunnies and such- and I told her it was no big deal. I mentioned that I liked some of the painting and such that she had done on her house. That started her in to talking about some of the things she thinks I should do to my (what was our) house- our son's room needs painting, and wouldn't a moon and stars stencil be nice? The master bedroom as well needs freshening up. <P>This was a little hard to take: during her withdrawal from our home and marriage, she never showed the slightest interest in any projects. A year ago, she laid new linoleum in the kitchen. Since then, zip. So, now she has plans and ideas for the house she won't own after she divorces me? This belongs at <A HREF="http://www.mixedmessages.com." TARGET=_blank>www.mixedmessages.com.</A> <P>Still, I did not LB at all. In fact, I mentioned I was going to grab some take-out Mexican food for dinner, saw a look of hunger pass over her, and offered to get her some as well- it was easy to do, not out of my way, and she thanked me for my generosity. <P>Keep making those deposits, even when it strikes you as totally insane.<P>I think this will be my last post tonight- I've got some cleaning up to do, and I've got to return some phone calls from people who are checking up on me to see if I've collapsed in a heap on the floor. Good night, all.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by peoplepleaser:<BR>Thinking of you today and following your posts. I am glad God has given you such peace today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, we'll see how peaceful I feel in an hour or so when I go to bed. Before this all started, when I thought we were happy, I often went to bed earlier than my wife- she would sit up and grade papers or plan classes. I'd fall asleep, and wake up to kiss her good night again when she came to bed. Since the day she told me she wanted out, I haven't often been able to do that. I head for bed earlier, but I often lie awake, and I recently realized that, against my will, I was waiting for her to come to bed. Tonight, that won't do, of course.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I spent day alone hoping my H would call or come by. Loaded and took 4 pickup loads of brush/tree limbs to the landfill today. I am exhausted, physically but even more so emotionally. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm sorry to hear you had such a rough day. You're absolutely right about your expectations being a source of pain for you- perhaps that knowledge will help you get rid of those expectations.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am glad ... your W is interested in spending time with you and your kids. I completely understand about you saying you have to establish some boundaries about family time.<P>If you figure out how to do that without LBing, please let me know. I'm clueless.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If I figure out how to do that, I'm going to write a book and make a million dollars- I know a lot of people who would be interested.<BR>

Train, been thinking bout you all day. You showed amazing strength and calm today. Hope your night goes well.<P>In the line of your recent network post, a good friend called me tonight, talked for a long time, her told me what a good dad and husband I have been, I have done nothing wrong, wife is so confused. That is what everybody says, but she can't see it.<P>That's where I tell myself that this will take time, patience, and perseverance (sp). I may be a fool, but i love my wife and i will do all i can to save this marriage. Fate and a higher power will have to guide the outcome, but I'll keep plugging away.<P>Hang in there, Train.