I have gotten a lot of mixed signals recently from my WS. A few days after I started to plan A, she started being very nice (flirting, telling me I look nice, rubbing my face and shoulders, etc.). But I can't take the thought of her still being friends with the OM.<BR> I am sure that nothing else physically will be going on with the OM because he knows I can ruin him. He is a fairly high-ranking employee of the State Department. I visited him at work the day after I saw her car at his house (and confronted him) and he was too afraid to come out of his office and see me. Immediately after I left his office, he called my wife and said "I thought I told you this was over!" I got home and she called me, furious: "Why did you go to see him? I told you it was over." She even started crying and tried to make me feel guilty by saying I just want to control her and she was contemplating suicide (whatever).<BR> The next day I read her my version of the Dobson Letter. She said it was beautiful and thanked me for understanding. She even got home the next night and asked me if I would like to go out. We just talked a lot as friends and her wall started to go down. Although I didn't want to know, she told me the things about the OM that she liked. She also told me that it aggrivated her that she did not get to end it with him, because she didn't want him to break up with her. She told me that she always had planned on being the one that ended it. She told me that she saw no future with him because of his age (he is 20 years older), and the fact that he is leaving in 6 months for another country.<BR> She told me that it was okay if I slept in bed with her the next day. I guess I thought the Plan A was working too good. I got my hopes up and I LB'ed the next day by starting to talk to her about us again. She was still being honest with me. She told me that she was still trying to call OM but he would not talk to her. She said that she went to his house but he would not answer the door. She told me that she just didn't want him to hate her and that she wanted to talk to him and explain herself. Finally, he received one of her calls and they talked for a while. By this time, I was going crazy because of the audacity of her. Although she was honest and told me everything (while I was being her friend, not husband, and Plan A'ing like crazy), I could not take the thought of her contacting him again. I told her this and she said it was important for her to talk to him because she liked to talk to him and he was wise.<BR> The next morning, I had made up my mind. If she could not respect my feelings I didn't need her. I gathered all my courage and felt comfortable because of the sense of finality that had come over me. In my mind, it was over. I went to the shop where she works and gave her a rose with a card. She had a big smile and said "Thank you. Why did you give me the rose?" I just asked her where the bathroom was and walked away. I felt as thought I had made a mistake because she was so happy when she saw the rose. I also felt I had made a mistake because of the card I had attached to the rose. It said "I hope everything works out for you. I'll be praying for you. Thank you for the good memories we had that I remember. I love you."<BR> When I got back from the restroom, she had a bad look on her face. She said, "What does this mean?" I told her that it was just too painful for me to go on like this and I was ready to end it. I told her that I was going to go tell my supervisor at work, my family, and my friends about the whole situation and she said "Why!? I thought we talked about this. Don't end it like this. You made me so happy when you said that you wanted to start dating me and we could just start out as friends." <BR> She broke me. I just let her do almost all of the talking but acted as if I didn't care anymore. Later I said something that was an LB (something to do with me being sure that her and the OM would have sex when she went to go talk to him later). She got mad at me and said "You know what? We have nothing else to talk about. I think you had a good idea earlier (divorce). So I said "Ok, bye." Before I got to my car, I noticed she had come outside and I turned around and she said "let's talk." <BR> She told me that she did not want me to be mad at her. Before that day, we had made plans to go out on a date Sunday night and a week later to a co-worker of mine's wedding and reception. She told me that she still wanted to do those things and let's just talk.<BR> After she got off work, she went to talk with the OM and said that all they did was talk. She said she respects the way that he told her "you have to understand, we are finished. We can just be friends." She betrayed him (he thought we were separated and he dumped her twice before because I answered the phone when he called. She told him that I was just visiting the kids)as well and he said he could never trust her again. He also knows his career is in jeopardy. But if she needed to talk, he would be there. He told her how awful and embarrassing it was the day I tried to go see him at work because he was worried I was going to report him to get him in trouble. <BR> The next day, when I was at work, she called me and told me that she feels better emotionally than she has in a long time. She said he made her realize that she needed to be happy with herself before she could be happy with anybody else. He told her she needs to grow up so that she would be a better person. She said she was going to live on her own, so she could grow up, explaining that it would be better for everybody involved. Weakly, I started to try to convince her otherwise. I told her how much I was changing and that I think she should give my plan a chance. She just got more and more angry as I went along.<BR> Finally, I just told her, ok, so why do you respect what he says and you don't listen to what I say. She told me "Whenever you talk to me, it is just about us and getting back together. Whenever I talk to him, I realize it is over and he gives me good advice about what I should do for me. He doesn't want anything in return." <BR> She said I could do what I want. She has no plans of leaving (she wants me to help her get a better paying job) for a few months or whenever. She told me she just desperately wants us to be friends and to have someone to talk to. She told me that right now she wants to be alone so she can grow up and learn about herself. <BR> I started to realize something: conversation was missing from our marriage. When I Plan A'ed her last week, we started to get along better but when I started to try to convince her about getting back together it drove her away.<BR> I want to start plan A'ing again because she also said "You told me that you were changing..I want to see it. I don't need a husband or a boyfriend right now. I just want so badly for you to be my friend." <BR> What should I do? A lot of thought run through my head right now because I see some of the evil WS on this website and it just fuels my imagination. I want to trust her again. She has already opened up and told me a lot. But sometimes my lack of trust for her and my imagination get the better of me and I decide to end it. But she just won't let me. What should I do? Plan A? Plan B? Please don't tell me to read over Dr. Harley's articles because I have already read them numerous times and can't formulate a consensus. I need some advice from my peers on this one.<BR> I love my wife still but I now realize that she is making huge withdrawals from my love bank every time she talks to him. A month from now I might not care and I'll just get this over with (divorce). But at the same time, I want to try to be friends with her and see what will happen. I am just SO confused.

One side note I forgot to add to the above post. My wife started to call me 3 or 4 times a day and would not leave me alone when I stopped calling her and told her she was free. She told me that when she thinks she can't have somebody it really makes her want them even more. I think that might be why she still is talking to the OM. So, should I just jump to plan B and let her come to me this time, without being weak and starting to talk about "Us" again? I have the feeling I was getting somewhere and I ruined it by getting my hopes up too quickly. <BR> I'm not bragging, but I know my wife is attracted to me and her friends (who don't know about this situation) are always telling her how good I look now that I have lost about 30 pounds the last two months. Should I just play INCREDIBLY hard to get? Thanks for reading my novel-size posts and giving me insight.

A Good Man,<P>Plan B is not about getting your W back. It is about saving your love for her until she is ready to come back. It is not something you do to get her back. She has to make that decision.<P>I will also say, that your marriage stands no chance unless you and your W are friends. So be her friend, but as you have noted don't push, don't talk about the relationship, just be there when she needs you.<P>Your marriage as contained in your vows is gone. A new one must be built on the ashes of the old. So start by being friends, if you decide that you don't want her for a W, then divorce and move on. You will know that when it is time.<P>Plan A is a great way of behavior no matter what is happening, because it is about not love busting, and it about changing you. It will make you feel better about yourself.<P>So if you can stand it, just be her friend. She has to decide that she wants to be married to you on her own, no amount of discussion will hurry or change that. What will have to be discussed are divorce arrangements or reconcilliation arrangements as decisions are made in the future.<P>So it seems to me your choices are two: divorce or learning to be her friend. Working on the marriage is not on the table right now. Hopefully, she will decide to be married to you again sometime in the future, but she doesn't want to be now.<P>Sorry, if this sounds blunt, but I know it is. Nevertheless, you seem to be in a good situation and I think as her guilt contintues and the affects of the OM wear off, then your friendship may lead to rebuilding your marriage.<P>I hope something I have said will help.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hi,<P>I guess I'm just replying as a woman who in my way younger years used to play way too many games. In those days, I always wanted my "dumpees" to be my friends also. They never had a chance in heck to get me back at that point, but I felt so guilty so I kept them as "friends" until I met my next one to fall in love with (and even then I still would try to keep them as friends even tho there was no future to be had there). I was an imbesol, I swear, but it sounds too familiar to me what's going on with you. I just wonder if she's just having you be her "friend" until she finds the next OM.<P>I feel so cruel saying this to you, but you said she needs to grow up and that may be VERY true here, unfortunately, it may not get her back for you. Again, I don't mean this to be hard on you, just been there done that. To this day one of my old boyfriends (dated him for 2 years, of course that was 20 years ago now) is still a good friend of mine - but I have no, zero, interest in him and haven't since the day I broke up with him - but I do have a good friend.<P>Be careful that if you land in the "friend zone" that it may be all it ever is and that you can handle that, while I hope this is not the case. I don't agree that you have to be friends first to win her back, sometimes they just aren't coming back. You both have different goals for this relationship now and I guess my suggestion is something Harley told me when I counseled with him - and that is to Plan A the best you can but set a do-able time limit on it for yourself. Could be as long as a few years if that's what you can take or could be 6-18 months, but if your wife doesn't want to be won back - it'll never happen and you have to know when you've given it your best try and when to stop and move on for your own sanity.<P>As if you really needed something else to think about. Sorry. By the way, you might want to read the post called "What do they mean when they say they want to be friends" by SoSad59. Best to you Good Man, really.<P><BR>------------------<BR>Kathy<BR><p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited August 05, 2001).]

Your wife does sound like she needs to grow up a bit...<P>I agree that she may be drawn to you if you pull away but is that what you really want? Or would you rather she choose you as a mature person - not just someone about to get away from her?<P>I'd suggest as JL, work on being her friend. At the very least, you'll do less damage to each other with a good relationship. You will feel pain... but you will learn to live with it and stand in it. AND you'll see that it won't kill you. Your wife does NOT define your reality - God does and He will never leave you nor forsake you.<P>Cheers!<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen

Good Man,<P>Listen, I wanted to write to you - to encourage you. I wrote the comments below, but reading back over it, it seems incomplete to me - not exactly all I wanted to say. I'll try again later.<P>I really believe you CAN save this marriage.<P>--- not all I wanted to say, but posted anyway.<P>My situation is similar to yours in that my wife more-or-less refuses to make any commitment to me. She has come around to the point of talking about "plans for the next year or two" which means that she is "willing" to stay married to me, but not that she loves me or is in any way committed to me.<P>Oh, man, I know the OM is a source of incredible pain to you! Your situation is different from mine in that he is still around - and talks to her. Have you considered writing him a note - and, since he already "dumped" your W, asking him to make it complete by refusing to communicate with her at all? I know your W would resent this, but it might do the trick. It sounds like he would be agreeable under the circumstances.<P>I agree with the idea that you should everything possible to be your wife's "friend" - whatever that means to her. You should expect to do that for the rest of your life if you stay together. Apparently, it's really important to her. You should LISTEN to her - whatever she wants to talk about. You don't have to fix her problems - or agree with her, just listen. I have found that to be really helpful in my marriage.<P>You and your W have two kids, right? You will be co-parents together for the rest of your lives. In that sense, divorce is forever. If you divorce, you will see your XW regularly - to deal with issues related to the kids. That will be painful too. So, if you can stand the pain now - somehow, and save and restore your marriage or, as one poster wrote - build a new marriage with the same wife, you will save yourself a lot of long-term pain, and you will do your kids a big favor.<P>Congratulations on the weight loss. I need to do that too!<P>I agree that you probably should avoid relationship talk until your wife is ready to want a relationship. She says she wants friendship. If this means that she just wants you not to be mad at her, I don't suppose it is worth very much, but if she means genuine friendship, I believe that it is a great foundation for a great marriage. Go for it!<P>I think Plan A is still the right path - if you can stand it. Harley usually recommends anti-depressants during this time. Maybe that would help. I don't know.<P>-AD

GM,<P>I think JL always has a very good viewpoint on things and I agree with what he has said to you. <P>I sometimes wonder though if we aren't "held onto" as some sort of security to the WS. They don't "want it all" from us, but they don't want to lose us either. So instead, we remain in limbo for awhile. I went thru this with my ex.<P>Eventually I didn't make it to Plan B and lost much of my strength in Plan A. I just gave up. I will always wonder about that but after all that's happened, I can't look back and I can't say "what if" out loud very often or it brings me down.<P>I am 100% for saving a marriage anytime possible . Certain betrayals are unforgiveable but some are forgiveable too.<P>Good luck and hang in there,<BR>Dana<BR>

Thanks for your posts..they really are encouraging.<BR> Last night (Monday), I had a very serious talk with my WS. I told her that I would appreciate it if she would not talk with the OM anymore. She said "Why can't we just have more nights like last night?" The previous night we had gone out and just talked...not at all about out relationship. But it still just irks me that she is still being friends with the OM. So she tells me "I think the reason I still talk to him is because it pisses you off. If you didn't say anything, I might stop."<BR> Whatever...so I told her "you know what, you don't care about my feelings so this is it." I told her that I was going to talk to a lawyer the next morning. She told me "whatever happens to me, it will be on your conscience the rest of your life." It sounded like a veiled suicide threat. She does this a lot when trying to manipulate me.<BR> Today, when we woke up, she asked "are you still mad at me?" and I said "no, you made your decision, I have to respect it." She said "are you going to a lawyer today?" and I said "yes."<BR> The rest of the morning, until she left for work she kept coming up with excuses for me not seeing the lawyer. "I thought you were going to be my friend, I thought we were going to take our time, etc." I agreed with her that I want those things, but she still refuses to end contact with the OM, so I told her I have to do what I have to do. She stormed out of the front door and I thought that was it.<BR> About ten minutes later she called me on her cell phone: "Make an appointment and I will go with you." I thought she wanted to go to the divorce lawyer with me so I said "um, ok." Then she said, "not a lawyer, a counselor. Let's see if counseling can help."<BR> AAAAAAAAAAlllhhhhhhhhhhhhgggggggggggggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!<P> I know counseling would be good,if she had an open mind to it. But I am afraid that she is just going out of fear. I just don't want her to resent me. Anyway, we are not going to be able to get an appointment for the next two weeks. I guess until that time I am going to finally Plan A and stick to it. She is really impulsive and maybe in just a short period of time she will think of more reasons to not leave me than simply the feeling of security.<BR> Thanks for letting me vent. By the way, I was deadly serious about going to the lawyer for divorce. I wasn't using this as a ploy to scare her into staying with me. I am just sick of my emotional health going down the drain and not seeing an end in sight. So don't get the wrong impression. I really was ready to get a divorce.

Good Man,<P>Good job! I don't know if threatening divorce right now is the best thing - but setting some consequences for her choices is.<P>That sounds a little like MY w. If I stand up to her, she usually folds - but I didn't do that very often in our marriage. <P>Keep us posted.<P>-AD

A Good Man,<P>My comment is HOLD THAT THOUGHT. You were ready to divorce her not manipulate her. This is very key and I think she may sense that the end is near. She has bought two more weeks. Now you would think that perhaps she would make good use of those weeks.<P>I am guessing: WRONG EXPECTATION. <P>I think she will test you, and try to wiggle out of facing what she has really done. So what do you do? Well, my suggestion and your inclination is PLAN A. Give it your best shot, but be honest with her. Keep those changes going and make them more permenant. Whether you divorce or not they will help your life. <P>In fact if it makes you feel better, consider the changes for later in life and use your W as practice.<P>She is not out of withdrawal yet, and clearly she and OM still have connections. You may have put the fear in him, but not your W. She is however, facing losing both of you.<BR>And that may be a starting point.<P>So steady as she goes. Plan A as you said, but back off of the relationship stuff, and be friends. She is the one that is going to have to address the relationship, or you will file for divorce. JUST REMEMBER THAT THOUGHT. Don't threaten, don't promise, just keep the ship steady.<P>Hope something I have said helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I believe that I stated before my hiatus that Plan A sounded like it was out for you...I think I did...sorry, but its pretty clear to all now. Plan B. Just Learning said it as well as I think it can be said...Plan B is about not letting her kill off the remaining love that you have for her while she navigates the fog. In my mind, it is 1000 times harder than Plan A. Plan A hurts a lot, but Plan B means an even more infinite level of patience. I'm pretty sure that the Plan A/B transition is what ruins it all. There is just no gas left in the Giver, and you either run it on fumes, or let your Taker have the wheel, and then...whoah! I have done that a few times...it puts you back past go, without your $200. I thin you need to decide to do it, or not. You can't be halfway decided...God hates a double minded man...I get that thump on the head everytime that I take my Taker out for a walk!<P>There is a consolation...God sees what you are doing. If you do the right thing, and grow in him, he will restore your marriage, if that is his plan...He will restore you, and your life...that much is obvious in his plan, even to me now. I 'see' some of what you are doing, too. I respect you for your committment to your word, you wife, and your marriage...and that gives me hope for us all. God bless you AGM -Mike

Thank you all for your posts and support. I really appreciate all of you. I'll keep you posted. Hopefully this might serve as some type of inspiration to you. God Bless.<P>-A Good Man

Update: Plan B appears to be working, but I feel guilty. WS is now being so nice. I didn't call her all day yesterday but she called me and told me about a marriage counselor leaving a message on the answering machine. She asked me what I needed her to do for this, and I said "there is some paperwork on the kitchen table that you need to fill out" and she quickly replied "I already did it" in a pleasant tone.<BR> Before she called, I had pretty much replayed all her lies over and over in my mind so that I could hate her (I know it's bad, but it is my only defense) if and when we finally did get divorced. Today I was off and as soon as I got home from my night shift, I got home, kissed the boys at the breakfast table, said hi to her and took a shower. I just said a simple "bye" as she left to work and to take the boys to daycare. I made it a point to be gone all day so she could not contact me. One of the point she has always made about losing attraction to me was that she knew she could always see me if she wanted to, and she really needs to get a chance to miss me.<BR> She knew I was going to pick up the boys from daycare early and take them to the pool. I did as planned and came home. She was already there and she said she tried to call a few times and she even came home at noon to see if I would have lunch with her. But I was not there. She also told me that she went to the pool we usually go to so she could find us (even had her bikini with her). I intentionally went to a different pool so that she could not find me. <BR> Basically, I am starting to feel guilty (like always) and I feel like she is being nice and I am being mean. I don't like to feel this way. Especially after being so filled with rage the other night that divorce was my first option. I can't help it; I am a softie. <BR> My problem is that I don't want to ruin the momentum I am building. Actually, I am fulfilling her wish (letting her "breathe" and giving her space) but I am doing it because I didn't care anymore; not because that is what she wanted. But she is starting to be so nice, I just feel guilty.<BR> Does anybody have any pointers on making Plan B less painful. I am so tempted to call her and say "hey honey, how is everything?" but I am afraid I would ruin the edge I obviously now possess. HELP!

A Good Man,<P>You are not in Plan B at all. In Plan B either you or your W leaves and contact is zero, or just the minimum to deal with the children. You are simply withdrawing from her right now.<P>It is working up to a point as she is getting the space she claims she needs. I would recommend that when you do interact with her, that it is done with the best Plan A possible. That way the withdrawal isn't so much a rejection as a need for space.<P>Please read here about Plan B I think you have a few things to consider.<P>God Bless,<P>JL