I want my H to talk to me about our relationship. I want to know how he thinks he feels now. I am in a limbo state. I just can't think!!! He told me he wants a divorce three weeks ago, but he told his mother he doesn't know what he wants shortly after that.<P>I am scared to bring it up with him. I don't know how to do it without LB'ing. Any suggestions?

Hello, stranger....long time, eh?<BR>Thank you for your concern, BTW!<BR>That's a toughie...I'm going to have to side with your little 'devils advocate' here, and say, don't push it...there is no way to ask without it being a LB AT THIS POINT...he's making you a mushroom, to be sure...just try to be a <B>content</B> mushroom. If you can do this one (HUGE) thing, it will cause him to change <I>something</I>...not sure what...but you know this doublespeak is to get a response from you...don't go there.<BR>Did he perhaps forget that you could simply ask his mother? Good for you! Keep that open, and don't let him know that you use that. Is it underhanded? Damned straight, and you should maximize its usefulness to you! This is not about being vindictive, and I can see that you do not want to play games...he does...gets some pleasure out of it, too...don't let him.<BR>I don't know many things...but I do know this game that he is playing...he honestly doesn't know...that's the HONEST answer...(Actually, the honest anwser is that he doesn't want the divorce, but he can't let himself know that...PRIDE.) If you can get back to good with him without revealing the fact that you know this, and he feels like HE came back, well...then honesty has a place in it...in the fog...I am thoroughly convinced that our honest appraisals do more harm than good. -Mike

Oh Mike, thank you for that response. I'm going to print it and read it when I get the urge to initiate things again. I'm glad you're back, you give such good advice. I' a teeny bit worried about eyes-wide-shut now, haven't heard anything since a trauma on Thursday.<P>Of course you are right on every count...I know he was pushed by the counsellor to say he wanted a divorce during our one and only session. I mean I was there and I listened as she led him up the path. And of course that's why he hasn't said anything; he hasn't anything to say.<P>Don't know how much you've been able to follow my story, but he won an award for his acting (best actor out of about 70 contenders) on Saturday night. I congratulated him when I saw him Sunday, and sent an congratulations email card to his work yesterday, from me and the kids. I know he looked at it (and early morning too, encouraging that he could be bothered) as the service lets you know when the person looks, but I got no response to it, even when he spoke to me briefly later on that day. But I sent it not expecting any response. <P>I'm still trying to be the best I can be around him, which is rare. Thursday is a public holiday here and I emailed him, simply asking if he would like to see the kids that day. I thought it was a nice thing to do, offer him extra time, prepared that he wouldn't though.<P>He emailed right back telling me he's going fishing with a male divorced friend at such and such a place, leaving Thursday afternoon, getting home Sunday afternoon. Could he see the kids Thursday morning? This is the MOST information I have gotten about any of his movements since he left. I think it's a good sign. He also told me he was going to a party tomorrow night that we'd both been invited to...I had already decided it was likely he would go, as it's a farewell for a guy he gets on well with, and I decided NOT to. What do you think of all this???<P>Despite hitting a bad place right now, I see some things that are encouraging. Mixed messages - I HATE them!!!<P>Thanks again, I read your post, and I am thinking of you. Congratulations on the new job!!! It's a start, things may turn around for you a bit now.<P>Jacky<P>

Great!<BR>Oh, and Teri never showed up at the bar that night...so I failed you there...sorry. BUT, I got a free Prime Rib dinner, and about way too many Miller Genuine Drafts...and too many tequilas! I am not sure what they were thinking, but I had to crawl home almost literally! I have not been that completely pissed in years! BUT, they gave me some very hopeful news...people in my sleepy little town know what the deal is now, and they are not too fond of their little librarian now...sorry about that!<BR>Yes, the menial little job is just the ticket in a lot of ways.<P>I figured one thing out about mixed messages, Jacky...mostly, they are mixed in how we react to them. We have some rational power over it, we just tend to abdicate that rational power to emotions. It was in my Models page, but I don't have it up...too clinical, etc. unfortunate for us people driven by emotions...Spock would be appalled, but oh well. I am doing a lot of introspection at my core these days...its tough like you would not believe. I have found that if I am to be successful at all, I need to make some serious changes...like how I am devastated by my divorce, and all of the attendant BS...I can't change it...its there 24/7...I can only change me. Trouble is, like most people, I defined myself by my marriage, and family...oops...there gone...now what? Good question.<P>Anyway, its good to be back talking to you...I missed you all dearly, held on to you for strength...and prayed, too. God is good Jacky...people are people.<P>I have a great deal of hope for us all...you are doing a great job so far...and your situation is well, not good. A lesser person would've LB'ed big time...I see it all the time...there is a man sleeping in my living room right now...his wife was taking to my XW last week...go figure. They got told a much different story about things...still want to know how she explained the OM to her....or do I?<P>Oh well....have a blessed day! -Mike

Hi Nina,<P>How do you think he feels? Write it down. He's scared, hurt, resolved, indecisive, confused, vindicated - what?<P>Put yourself in his shoes. Feeling what he is feeling - remember you wrote it down, How would you feel? What would you do? Would you call your mom and say Nina is a terrible person and we're getting a divorve. And then Nina starts being nice to him. Would you call your mom and say I don't know anymore?<P>Would you tell Nina that you don't trust this 180 degree behavioral change?<P>Trust takes time. So far, time is on your side. He hasn't left, he is still there. The situation is killing you, but not if you distance yourself just a tad, and think of what he must be thinking. Ask yourself if you were in his shoes would you want someone pushing and digging at you for answers that you are not ready to give? He doesn't want to re-commit himself to you because he is afraid that if he does the old Nina is going to come back. He doesn't trust this yet.<P>So, take a deep breath, fix that smile on your face, and get going!! <P>Anne

Thanks Anne,<P>Yes I know that he doesn't trust me yo some extent, but before he left I was plan A'ing for most of that time, admittedly with quite a few LB's, because I was still hurting over the affair.<P>One day, a few weeks before he left I decided that the pain was killing me, so I thought the only way to go on is to let go of the hurt by forgiving him, and trusting him again. Two days after I told him this, the wall came up. Instantly and suddenly it was there.<P>I know I have confused him with my consistent niceness in the face of all this hell. He has done or not done a couple of things that he KNOWS pushes my buttons, and I have not reacted in the way he thought. I would be confused, too!<P>That's the idea of Plan A'ing though, isn't it? To change yourself for the better, let them notice and get used to it, and see what happens. I know it's still too soon, I'm just wanting him home.<P>

Jacky, I know it's tough being in limbo- but I'm convinced in this situation, quick answers are bad ones. You're in pain, but so is he, and the quickest way he can see to get out of pain is to get away from you. He's wrong- the pain will continue, but that's what I think a WS thinks. If you push him, saying "I can't stand this, I need resolution <I>now</I>," you know what that resolution will be.<P>Remember, your marriage did not go sour in one month, and will not be repaired in one month either.<P>Five months ago, my wife told me she thought I didn't love her. I told her I did, and I'll do my best to show it, and then maybe her feelings would return. It was little more than a month before she told me "it's not coming back, I just feel guilty and pressured." A month. By her own calendar of events, it was almost two years she spent "as a zombie" and another year of "waking up" (none of these feelings ever shared with me, of course), but only a month to try to reconnect. That's WS behavior- they're in pain, they want to get away quickly.<P>A friend of mine wrote me, after I told him of my marital strife, about a time when he and his wife were having difficulties. She said to him one night- "you know, I'm trying to work out my feeling here, understand what's going on inside me, and it doesn't help to have you standing there checking your watch and tapping your foot!" Time, time, time. Reach down and find all the strength you can. <P>

Nina you have your feet on the ground and it's important to keep them there. The rollercoaster rides on, know that YOU are not the confused one. The WS is always the confused one, not the BS. You are doing the right thing, sit-tight, you know you are right and he knows it too. Why do you think he is acting this way?<P>Hang Ten.

Move the buttons. <P>(In reference to your comment about his pushing your buttons) <P>Understand that he WILL push those buttons - his is riddled with guilt and uncertainty and is trying to prove that you really haven't changed by provoking you. He probably felt that he doesn't deserve or want your love. (mixture of guilt and denial)<P>He will try and push those buttons in an effort to prove himself right - he deserved that OW because you are bad bad bad!! <P>Don't let him prove himself right if that will inspire you to keep going! Make yourself the best spouse you can be just to prove that you can to yourself!<P>Anne

Thanks guys! <P>Hang Ten, he left for some space, I strongly suspect an affair.<P>Anne, Yes I have been aware of why he pushes me for a while. Trying to prove that I haven't changed. And THAT is my motivation for being strong and consistent. The one time I LB'd since he left, that was the first thing that went through my mind, and I'll bet his too. So I absolutely REFUSE to do it again, though there will be times when I will want to. I'll come here and vent instead.<P>My feet on the ground, does that remind you of a song?<P>"Me here at last on the ground,<BR>You in mid-air...."<P>It's been going through my mind the last few days, and yes "Isn't it rich?"<P>

Nina Too:<P>This is going to be long. I so wish I was here when you posted this. Sorry again for the 6 day spree. Okay, yes eveyone is right he is waiting for you to revert, to lb, TO BE A b$%@...but perhaps not so much on purpose. When my H would tell he he wanted a Divorse, then withdraw and say he just doesnt know, I had no clue what he was doing. I would push to find out what he was thinking and feeling and he would pull farther away, I would try harder, he would again pull farther away. Boy, I just did not get it.<P>In the last 3 weeks or so, we have really done well. Communicated. He has told me things that really make sense. The more I pushed, the more he backed off. If he gave in, a week later he felt so smothered he backed off further.<P>This is what I think may be happening to your H too. See he (your H) was and still is confused, doesn't know what he wants, doesn't know if he wants you, he is mostlikely dissapointed in his own actions and is feeling guilty and more so he is affraid you will go back to LB'ing and such at a later point.<P>You just keep working on you. Be the best person you can ber, show him how much you care if you want, but don't push him to show it back or to talk about it. You will not win in that situation. If he never comes around, then maybe it was not meant to be. YOU deserve to be happy!! With or without him. You have wonderful kids and friends and family that love you. If he does come around, it must be on his terms, or he will eventually revert himself.<P>Hope this makes sense.<P>Love Michelle

Wow...nice replies all around. Anne...what you are talking about is second perceptual position...the old put yourself in their shoes thing...its good for a BS to do, but a little like juggling nitroglycerine sometimes, I'm afraid! <BR>As I have said before...we get so emotional at their brandishing the Takers so selfishly, and used to Plan A (with expectations, so not always a good Plan A), that we are fairly screaming for validation from them. That is a big mistake. Its a little ironic, but a WS and a BS are not so different as we may seem. Both refuse to remain in the second perceptual position...meeting the other in their model of the world. (We do better, but not consistently enough...they've got us in that department, wouldn't you say?)<BR><B>The meaning of our communication lies in the response we get-regardless of our intention.</B> That is a tough pill to swallow. You can say whatever you want...its up to him to take his own meaning from it. We all have 'maps' of reality...but the maps are not the territory....they are just maps...our representations of reality.<BR>So, how do you change the meaning of your communication so that it conveys your message to him properly? By delivering it while you are in his model of reality. How do you do that? Well, you have done it before...that much is certain. I really like pacing, and what L. Michael Hall (quote above is his, BTW) has to say about this. He calls it 'calibration to someone's state.'<BR><B>Calibration refers to using our sensory awareness to develop an intense focus that allows is to detect another's mental-emotional state, mood, experience, etc.</B> Now, what that means is paying attention to some things you ordinarily would not...but should. We all get along here pretty well because we come here 'precalibrated'...we're all in the same wrecked state pretty much. Rapport comes easy at that point...and it is perfectly natural. So, why not use the same thing with your WS? I'm not asking you to sleep around, not care, or whatever the fog is causing. My XW is primarily kinesthetic/gustatory...her conversation is peppered (gustatory, get it?) with references to feelings, and food. (YES, but let's not go there now...that's another problem of hers, not mine.) I am primarily visual...I see things....I focus, I get the picture. All pacing and calibrating refers to is body language (match it), and use the same representational system that they use...that is if I said something didn't ring true...you would respond in the same sensory modality (auditory). You might say, I heard that...or that sounds interesting. This establishes rapport...puts you in my map of reality. It doesn't make you agree, but that is not necessary...really. If, instead, you said...I see what you mean...you agree, but in a different representational system...rapport is not assured then.<P>What's that old saying...if you are satisfied with the results you are getting, don't change a thing? The thing I am doing is changing how I am, not who I am. Like when I talk to Teri lately, I don't evaluate anything she says. It never works...like DBT said...the first thing that occurs is pretty much (for me, anyway) the last thing I should do. The Bible says that the devil sends his best first, and God waits. I am beginning to know how much psychology is in that book, and its not all control of the masses, either. The battle between good and evil has never been an external one...that's just the deeds of evil men. It is in our minds/hearts/souls/brains...in us.<BR>GNP has a thread that interests me because I never thought God talked to me, but I think he is talking to GNP...I think he talks to us through our subconscious mind, not necessarily as an angel on our shoulders. Our subconscious minds have no language, however...but they have symbols that our conscious minds have language to explain. It is the meeting of our own 'minds' that brings us closer to God...IMHO. Rapport starts with us. If you are interested...my next rant on the NLP thread is about that...Call it my journal (Diary of a Madman, no doubt!)<P>Bottom line, Nina...these posts in here are coming from a very good place through very good people...its amazing to me...use it to shore yourself up...we care...we believe in you...on the Dark Continent, or OZ...or Iceland, for that matter. Take care...take some rest...give it to God, and get some peace.<P>OH, yes...to anwser your question...that is the standard pattern for me, too! God bless. -Mike