Well he managed to push one of my buttons today. And I bit, worse luck.<P>He came to see this kids this morning instead of tonight because he is going fishing for the weekend. Very cool towards me, I know that’s a mask, but it still hurts. I DID notice him checking out my “new” figure, of which HE can take full responsibility! The tiniest little smile was at the corner of his mouth when he did that. I don’t think I was meant to see any reaction though. <P>Other Plan A things I did apart from try to look nice, were to make him some tea without him asking, took snacks outside for them all, tried to be pleasant with the small talk, but he really had the wall up today. In fact when he did speak to me, he couldn’t look at me. This has all happened since that day about two weeks ago when we had a really nice chat. It’s like he went home and thought about it, because he has had the wall up again ever since. Didn’t like me being too cheerful. Or get my hopes up.<P>I had emailed him if he would be back on Sunday in time to see the kids, but he didn’t reply, so I had to ask him today. It has been arranged that he see them on Sundays. He replied, “Oh I don’t know if I will be back in time.” What? WHAT??? BRRRRIIIINNNNGGGGGG! went my button. Why the hell can’t you MAKE the time, I thought?<P>So I said in the nicest possible way “Are you able to schedule it so you CAN get back?” Offhand reply, yeah, but… I said, “Listen, these are your children too and you have a responsibility to make time to see them. They need you.” (BIG LB saying that to him…makes him feel guilty – today I couldn’t care less if it made him drop dead.) I also said they would like to be with him for a weekend every now and then. So he agreed he would see them, and would have them next week. This is when I started to cry….I thanked him and walked away, but he saw the tears.<P>Later I realised next weekend isn’t convenient, so I had to pull myself together and tell him that. He said fine, but didn’t suggest another weekend, neither did I. Then I just kept out of the way until he left.<P>And of course, when he did go, I had to deal with the kids “Daddy doesn’t love us…” “I hate Daddy…” “Why doesn’t Daddy stay with us???” “Daddy doesn’t love you, Mummy” And today, 5 year old said “I wish we were a proper family.” My eldest (with a bad cough) was hurt because his dad told him he was complaining too much about it. And boy is it hard to deal with these things when all I want to say to them is that their father is a selfish, cheating, lying, spineless b****** who acts like he is a single man, and that I am fast losing any respect for him. (WOW, that feels better!!!)<P>My resolve for Plan A is wearing thin. I am wearing out already…I feel like it is getting too hard and today I just want to get on that plane. There is no conflict in him, just a blank huge wall. Doesn’t that mean he doesn’t care? So why SHOULD I keep going? Just because I love him, and that I think it can work one day if he only tries but if he doesn’t want to what can I do??? I just don’t think he is going to change in the time we’ve got left here before he has to go to the job in another country, which I can’t accompany him on, nor can I stay here. (5 months at the most). So maybe I should just go now. It is all I can do NOT to call him up today and tell him to go to hell. <P>WHAT can I do??? I’m freaking out, I’m losing control of my emotions, I need help fast.

I wish I had some encouraging words for you but I don't know what to say which is why I don't reply more. I can relate - if that helps you. <P>My kids pray at night that God would soften mommy's heart so daddy can come back home. I don't want him back. When they cry "I want my daddy" or "I don't want you to get a divorce" I just hug them and say I know you do baby and I know you don't baby and it is o.k. to cry. I also tell them that God always hears our prayers and he always answers them but not always the way we want Him to. When my kids were real little ages one and two and we were separated and they use to cry "I want my daddy" I use to think to myself (not out loud) "its o.k. baby mommy's gonna get you a better daddy" - it just caused me to find some humor in the stressful moment for myself. I also always tell my kids that their daddy loves them VERY much. And when they ask why he doesn't pick them up anymore I say "I don't know, I don't agree with daddy on that but I am sure he will come as soon as he can". <P>As far as giving up... I think you have to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you really have tried EVERYTHING. You never want to look back and say "I wonder if I tried....." or "Maybe if I would've gone a little longer..."<P>At the same time be honest with yourself. Are you hanging on to his every little word and longing for those nice little chats? If it is killing you maybe you need to resolve to no communication with him except what is absolutely necessary. No tea, no coming inside...did he come to see the kids then let him see them and you stay clear. That is something only you can answer if you are ready for that or not. Sometimes when you STOP all niceties they think "Hey where did she go" and after awhile of that they come looking for you. <P>Remember, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Try something new, something different.

nina,<P> i tell you the zoloft is working wonders for me, i feel great, i love my wife and i know she doesn't want to be with me and ive come to terms with that. it takes two to make a relationship work and trust me love is a choice just like everything else in our lives. I have been reading the posts here for a while and i think the problem a lot of people here have is that we are not selfish enough and we are willing to put up with infidelity and being treated like crap. If we weren't willing to put up with it we wouldn't be here. I don't know how much more i'm going to be posting here either and i've read all the plan a and plan b stuff and i think it all makes a lot of sense but what im sayin is that if we just move on and find comfort in our decisions and quit worrying about these spouses we have that neglect us and don't have any idea what commitment is, that i think they will come crawling to us because we are the real loving people in these relationships, im not saying we don't have our problems but obviously we know what love and commitment are huh? I'm gonna move on and when she comes crawling back im gonna help her stand up if i can but i don't see a future in a relationship with her even though i love her, she hasn't and because she hasn't can't provide for me what i need to be truely happy. i want relationship with someone that is faithful for life, commited for life, and best friends for life. none of us would be here if we had that and therefor will never be able to be happy with our spouses on a level where they are making us truely happy. we only get to live once let us quit wasting our time on people who aren't worthy of what we have to offer, commitment, faithfulness and a yurning for true love. <P><BR> you loved once nina and you can do it again, pick yourself up, hold your head up and give yourself all the hugs you need.<P> best wishes<BR> John O'Connor<BR>

Now, I know that this is hard...but someone told you to move those buttons...that's not a facetious comment...although I did LOL. I was trying to tell you about that. Look at it in the third person...as someone watching you two interact. You must develop this skill anyway. What did him saying that mean to you? I'm going to guess again, and say that it meant that he didn't think them important enough to ensure that he was there at the appointed time. OR, that he resented you trying to mark his time so completely. OR, he did it just to be contrary, and in control. OR, he honestly did not know. OR something else. OR nothing at all. Okay, which one is the button you felt stomped on? Seems to me like number one, and maybe a little 2, and 3, too.<P>Let's get an objective dialogue going here on it...who's with me? I'll start out by saying that another way to view it is that he is putting these restrictions on himself. Okay, now what would happen if, instead of getting angry with him directly about that, you said something along the lines of...that must be awful for you...you will miss your time with the kids if you can't get back in time. Can I help in some way? (He'll likely ask for an alternative time to be arranged, and you might respond in a similar way, because you got nothing from your first reaction...which still applies.) BUT, if it is true...say he was riding with someone else, and it was out of his control...it may be genuine...I doubt it, too...but this is an attempt to allow YOU options, not him! So, you have a choice, and you are not manipulated by it...you would be taking it there against what he 'knew' you would do...LB. This is about the only thing that has a visible effect on my XW...when I '180' on her. Yes, she pushes harder, yes, she tries to take a mile from it, and yes, I keep the boundaries intact.<P>Nina, there are many other ways that you can take this...maybe a little Plan B is in order, too...keeps him guessing, and not in control...and thinking...good for you. When I feel myself about to do an anticipated LB with Teri, I stall off any decision, or comment, saying that I need to evaluate it, and will give her my answer later...which is never when she calls asking for it. I make her come to my house for my answers in that case every time.<P>The trouble with this one for you is that you feel a little justified, and vindicated because you are (sorry) hiding behind protecting the kids...from what? Look, any one of those possible scenarios I listed is cause enough for you to say...why am I protecting them from their own FATHER? Think about it...plus, do an ecology check...were you really doing that IN THE MOMENT, or were you hurt by it, and came up with that later?<P>I am only trying to let you know that there are alternatives here. I agree with you, and your reaction, and your comments...and GOOD FOR YOU FOR CONSIDERING YOUR CHILDREN...<B>BUT</B>, it was still LB, and a backslide in your Plan A effort, wasn't it? Remember the desired outcome...there are smaller goals along the way...you missed this milestone...Now, figure out why, what you need to change in you to catch the next one...probably on Sunday, where he will set you up, and jump on the same button...I predict SuperDad might come for one of his phoney guilt ridden visits...and you will be accused of putting those words in their mouths....Get ready for it!<P>Please don't be offended by this...like I said, I agree with you, and it did take courage, and love for you to do that, but this isn't about that now. Its about you getting in control of the interaction, and growing your own self! Take care...I'm sorry for what happened. -Mike

Thank you all for replying. I am a little calmer than when I wrote that because I had a good sob, and washed it out somewhat.<P>Notheard, I don't think I HAVE tried everything yet that may have a result, if there's one pending.... but I am not happy in myself. I can see in his eyes that he thinks I am faking, and it just hurts so much. I made changes before he left, and no it wasn't as consistent as I would like. He acknowledged them however, and said good for you, but I don't want to be here. That is what I'm afraid of here. That nothing can save this, no matter what I do. But I will plug on for another while I suppose, because of the encouragement I get here.<P>john, you know it's not that easy...you love your w, I love my h. But I have kids to onsider too, and what effect this has on them. So whatever I do I have to make darn sure it's the right thing by them.<P>Mike, You made some good points, especially about the way I could have phrased that...I will try to use it next time. Actually I have been pretty good at doing that until today. It's been a hard week, although I know that's just an excuse for not putting in.<P>As for why did I react....definitely for the kids. From the start he has been withdrawing from them, and it has been on my mind A LOT. There was another post where I discussed this and why I did not want to talk about the kids with him in any way, but how do I stick up for their rights, too. No matter what's happening between us, he has a responsibility to have time with them, and he's been shirking that. I truly believe if I had not offered for him to have the kids today at all, he wouldn't have bothered. And why? I believe he is doing it to get used to them not being here 'when' I go to Australia.<P>It was Bill who said he'd do anything and say anything for the sake of their kids. I have always been like that too, and even as a young girl, found myself defending those too small to do it themselves.<P>Why did he do this? I'd say about nearly all of your guesses are correct. But I'd say mostly because he doesn't want restrictions on HIS time, despite the fact that it was infringing on the kids' time. His 'space'. He did it to push me, to encourage me to make a demand, to see if I would. Well I failed. Now he's there thinking "See? She hasn't changed," to justify his own guilt, cos that's how his mind is right now. I don't expect him to get here on Sunday until late, because he asked me to get the maid prepared to sit just in case. He already planning to limit his time!!!<P>I hope he understands me well enough to truly know the reason why I did say that. It was for the kids, and honestly, only for that reason. Any more input?

My kids dad has always been "World Greatest Dad" but now he is limiting his time with them - I think to hurt me more than to be selfish with his time. I think for me the bottom line is I can't control him and I had to come to a realization that he might drop out of his kids lives. And you know what - that is sad and that is a drag but that is his choice to make. It is his loss and theirs but it is out of my control. I have a support system setup where i can get babysitting from church or family members to give me the break I need. I also always tell my kids that their daddy loves them VERY much. And when they ask why he doesn't pick them up anymore I say "I don't know, I don't agree with daddy on that but I am sure he will come as soon as he can". I did not cause this divorce and I did not cause him to drop out of their lives. But if he does - what can I do? nothing. I can't stop him from cheating and I can't force him to spend time with his kids. I am trying to get his sister to pick them up so he will see them maybe that will jog his memory of how precious they are. I think with my H it is "out of sight out of mind". It is sad, I know.<BR>

Yes I know it is his loss, and he too was the world's greatest dad. I also think he is trying to do it to give me a message: it doesn't matter about the kids, I'm still leaving, or see, I DON'T need them as much as you thought (he left me once before, and I know the kids were a big factor in his returning). And I also think that "out of sight, out of mind" is at work here too. Let's hope though, that "absence makes the heart grow fonder" is also true.<P>I also tell my kids that Daddy loves them very much but sometimes they just don't believe it, and that hurts. Seeing is believing for them. They know it when he's here, but that he can leave them again if he loves them...well they form their conclusions. <P>At the moment I have a live-in maid, everyone does here, and she often sits with them for an hour during the day, so I can kid-free shop, and once a week at night, as I have kept up one commitment in my theatrical life. I could be out every night of the week if I wanted....it's not time for me I want, it's father time for them.<P>Nothing, and I mean nothing is going to make up for the time they lose with their father. A lot of us here do it all alone, and we are everything to the kids. At times that does gets wearying, but I felt a bit gladdened by that today. When he was here, our 5 year old hurt herself...she was always Daddy's girl, so she usually runs straight to Dad, but she's out of that habit already; she came right to me for comfort. She walked straight past him. I hope he noticed that, because if he did it may have said something to him.<P>You know I know all the plan a stuff, and I'm learning every time I post here, but I still don't know what to do with this. Wait around for him to reach a conclusion for five months, or do my waiting in Oz? I know I have to decide this ultimately for me and the kids, but I would appreciate any input on that particular issue.<P>Thanks<P>

Kids are pretty smart. My son said if Daddy loves us why does he keep doing this to us. I just tell him I don't know. Inside I am thinking - good question, I was thinking the same thing! My son also said if Daddy doesn't live here how will I know how to act? My girl is a daddy's girl too and it is neat to see her bonding with me which she never did when he was around. But she mainly doesn't like us to talk about it. She says stop talking about it or you'll make me cry. and I say it is o.k. to cry and it is o.k. to talk about it and she'll say she doesn't want to. It is heartbreaking. <P>I found through counseling to think on 4 week intervals. Commit to standing for your marriage for 4 weeks then in 4 weeks reevaluate and recommit for another 4 weeks or commit to contemplating ending it for 4 weeks and then in 4 weeks reevaluate. 5 months is too broad - our brains will go crazy thinking where we will be in 5 months. Plus who knows maybe Jesus will come back before then and we won't have to worry about any of this. And praise God there will be no marriage or marrying in heaven.

Here's one my "Daddys girl" has been saying. "Well Mummy, you have to get us a new daddy." That would KILL him to know she thinks like that. (My server is SO slow tonight!!! Very frustrating.)<P>Well I guess we have to be the adults here and LOOK AFTER our kids. In the time he's been gone, my eldest has sleep-walked for the first time and once he got up in the middle of the night, dressed, made his own breakfast and sat waiting for us to get up. I woke at 4 and saw his light on. It broke my heart. Mike or Bill said he did it to please me, so I wouldn't leave too. He's even said he doesn't like me going out because he's afraid I won't come back. My youngest has wet and dirtied her pants for the first time since I took her nappy off. Middle child, Daddy's girl, keeps coming out with things. Today she also said, I know daddy doesn't love you. When I asked why, she said she looked and she can tell (not those exact words, but that's the idea). And through all our pain we have to comfort them and help them deal with it. On the face of it, it sounds hard, but I am very glad for my kids, I would not be getting through this without them.<P>But I'm still miserable!!!!!

Nina Too:<P>I am so sorry for today. Not only do you have to hurt for you, but you have to hurt for your children too. I do not believe for one minute that he loves them any less, but as everyone said, he is trying to prove a point or should I say set his own boundries.<P>I have been with you for 4 weeks or more now and think you are doing a great job! Everyday is a challenge and it is not always easy to do the right thing at the right time. <P>I am so glad you had a good cry and I am gald you slept last night! Remember something for me okay, you are a special person and he can not take that from you. Your children are special people and he can not take that form them, but he can hurt all of you, if you let him. It may be time to stop letting him set the rules. I remember when I was a kid, my parents divorsed, my mother never let my dad dictate life for her. If it was his day to take us and he passed, then the she did not make it convienent for him to make that time up. He would get us on his next scheduled day. Your children are not a bargining tool. It is his choice. What ever you do, don't bad mouth him to them. No matter what he does, he is still their dad. if he digs his own grave, so be it, but it was not your fault.<P>Funny I am angry at him too. I feel like I am with you, in your heart. Like you said, I guess just a bond. I ahve really good news but it is not the time to share with you. Maybe next week.<P>Maybe meditation again tonight, okay?<P>Love, michelle

Nina, I know how it must hurt. Kids make this all infinitely more complicated, and harder. I echo what has already been said-he is making a choice-a bad one-but his choice. He loses out in the end.<P>You have your very special kids, and based on their comments you posted, they may see things very clearly. Love those kids with all you have.<P>And, hang in there. I think you are doing great too, I'm right there with you. Thinking of you tonight. Good luck, and God bless.

Jacky, you are doing far better four weeks into this than I would have been. Yes, you backslid from plan A- don't beat yourself up over it, learn from it (especially how to avoid it in the future). Good luck to you- you're in my thoughts.<BR>

Jacky...I have to say that this has turned into a positive experience overall. BTW, I wasn't trying to imply that your motives were less than honorable, or selfish. Part of the process that I (think) I started is to look at all possibilities, not just the ones you think are true. Plus, as BS's, we are looking to justify being 'just like them'....selfish. So....<P>I do a great deal of meditating, too, and I have used a lot of music, and sounds to help. There is a phenomenon called 'binaural beat frequencies', which is technospeak for creating a sound that you feel, but do not hear using headphones....its sort of a whump-whump-whump-whump, and very hypnotic...that's its purpose. Oddly enough, my one and only programming job gave me insight into how to create these whump-whump sounds, so I wrote a program to do that using my sound card. I can mix in any number of other audio sources, and burn CDs. I have done about half a dozen that I use, with my personal affirmations, and desired outcomes, and they help. I also have an MP3 player that I can load them in to, for a little escape at my leisure. I am rambling, but since you meditate, I thought you might want to give this a try...let me know. -Mike

Where would I be without you guys? You bring such comfort to me every time I need it. Thank you all for your caring comments and I will try to remember them in the dark hours.<P>I am getting tight back on the Plan A wagon, and also what I am going to do, which I haven't paid much attention to lately, is look after myself...keep busy, do things I enjoyed before all this. I made a list last night, and I am going to use it. Meditation was high on my list. Don't know if I told you or Michelle, Mike, but noises seem to distract me. But if I'm having trouble, I may give it a try. Thanks.<P>Tonight I have some friends coming over. I don't know what you'll think of this, but we are all having our palms read! Just a bit of fun, but it will be a nice distraction. The guy reading the palms runs an excellent meditation group, but now the time is inconvenient for me. I'll ask him if there is another time.<P>Tell me, when you LB, do you apologise, or not...I know I did, right then, Look, I'm sorry to infringe on your time, BUT. That stupid word...Dr Phil says when you say BUT you're not meaning what you just said. Food for thought, hey Mike???!!!!<P>EWS I'm about to put a post in your thread.<P>Thanks again EVERYONE! Better to vent here than at him.

Nina,<P>Well, he found that button - move it. You can't MAKE him see his children - let it go.<P>IF his interest is going to return, it will return after you let HIM go. Go on with your life.<P>What was the reconcilliation like after the last time that he left??<P>Anne

Nina,<P> I feel where you are coming from. To tell you the truth, I just finally got tired of all the nice Plan A stuff. So I kept dwelling on all the anger I had with my WS and I told her "that's it. I'm going to see a lawyer tomorrow." Surprisingly it has worked like a charm. She is calling me just to talk and we are getting along much better. And I feel like I'm in control of the situation.<BR> I have started Plan B because I couldn't get over the feeling that I was advocating what she did while I was in Plan A. I was just mad all the time when she wasn't around because I could imagine her saying "I can do anything and he will still treat me like a queen."<BR> Enough of that! Do what you want, but after I took a hard line approach to this, she is slowly not taking me for granted anymore. She knows now that I have the power to end it without "dying." I don't know everything about your situation, but it might be time for Plan B. Good luck.

Hi Anne,<P>Well, reconciliation was like this; We decided together to work on Plan A...we did this bit really well until the end of June, and then I noticed a BIG change in him...not trying any more, losing weight, looking stressed - a whole lot of things. <P>Also we had decided on a policy of total honesty together, particularly about OW, as he said he broke it off. He was supposed to tell me when she contacted him or if he contacted her. He later broke this a few times that I know of. This would build my stress levels and untrusting stuff would come out again. To add to it, she stalked me a couple of times at the mall, and him at work, phoned our house and abused me (called me a slut for sleeping with my own husband). But amongst all this s*** we were really trying go get things together, and he did all the right things, and I knew he wanted to be there, right until the end of June.<P>This was a cycle, it'd be good for a while, and then blow up. I was LB'ing a lot and so was he and so I decided to forgive and trust again because it was killing me. I told him so. Two days later he told me he wanted to separate.<P>Doesn't look too great written down in black and white, does it? <P>Hi A Good Man,<P>Yes I also feel like he's getting the best deal here, and I just get so sick of it. But someone else said make sure to try everything, and one thing that hasn't happened is the talk we're supposed to have (presumably because he's not ready to have it). Now if I push this talk, I am LB'ing and I know it will push him away. Since this isn't my desired outcome, I wait for him to bring it up. <P>If I said to my H what you said to your wife right now, I think he'd breathe a huge sigh of relief that HE didn't have to make the decision...I truly think he either CAN'T do it now cos of a MLC or because he wants me to be the bad guy. He hates being the bad guy.<P>Thanks for the replies.