For those of your following my story, you know that my H and I have had at least 4 lengthy conversations this past week about his affair and how we can recover. I have made the decision to move to Plan B. I am extremely worried about my H and I love him very much. I want to maintain that love for him until he is ready to make a decision regarding our marriage. Unfortunately the only way to maintain this level of love at this time is for me NOT to see him or do family things with him.<P>This may not make sense so I'll explain. He is living under the same roof as woman he had affair with. ( renting 1/2 of the space from her father) Didn't know her when he moved in but 3 weeks ago, began PA. Says "I don't know" when I asked if he loved her.<P>When he comes to our house, he expects us to do family things together. I have done this repeatedly over the past few months and each time we have a great day together and then he leaves. Now that I know he is going back to the house where she is, this is a major LB for me. I think it shows lack of consideration for me. He has promised that he is just going there to think and on some level I beleive him. He is very confused and he says he has enough respect for me to let her know he needs his space. While I am extremely disappointed that he put himself in this situation to begin with, I am more so disappointed that he refused to move out, even temporarily. <P>At any rate, the only way that I'm going to put up with this and be able to continue to love him is to make sure that I don't put myself in a position that gives me hope and then drops me flat when he leaves. His "loving" and "Leaving" technique may be helping him to see that we can be happy together as a family and then he can retreat to a safe place where he has no responsibility. However, this same thing only suffices to inflict more pain on me when he leaves. In the beginning, the good time we had during his visits outweighed the pain caused by leaving. Lately the opposite is occuring. More love units are being withdrawn than deposited because I already know he will be leaving and I can't allow myself to accept his attempts to meet my EN's.<P>I told him I was not giving up and that I would be here for him when he was ready. However, all this was said verbally. Is it a good idea to follow with a letter? There is absolutely nothing left for me to say to him. He knows how I feel. I have nothing to add.<P>Don't want to cause him any more pain or apply any unnecessary pressure. I think he understands how much it hurts me for him to live in same house as her. I am trying to trust him and beleive that he will stay alone to think. However, I don't know her at all and if I was her, I would be fighting for him too. She is a divorced single mom who works 3rd shift and is pretty much living off her daddy. I think she may see my H as her big opportunity to improve her living situation and her life. I am willing to wait around until this affair ends either by natural death or by her becoming too demanding of him. However, I want to make sure my love for him is still strong when he comes back. <P>Therefore Plan B it is. I'm very scared and lonely but I'm sure this is for the best. This allows him time to think without me pressuring him or trying to influence his opinions. He needs to see if she can meet all his needs. I don't think she can because I am the mother of his children, not her. He is planning on coming by tomorrow to take them to school. I will try to be ready to leave when he gets here. <P>I have read many successful Plan A stories on this forum but not much is said about Plan B here. Are there any Plan B success stories?<P>Lynn <P>

I'm not sure that a letter is in keeping with Plan B's philosophy. I think that the transition from A to B behavior is supposed to be an abrupt change to shake them up somewhat. Letting them know kind takes some of the oomph out of it. I have seen Plan B success stories...most involve A, then B. I know when I began Plan B it really made Teri think, but I don't think she is going to come back anyway. I do know that it affected her, but with all the support she has, and the situation with Aaron, I'm still the bad guy that makes their lives difficult. Now, it seems like Garrett is moving over that way, too. Spencer and Sam still seem to be supportive of me, but I think it is only a matter of time before they go that way, too. If we ever get back to good at all, it will take a lot of time, and some miracles to be worked. I, too feel the withdrawals now. It is easy at first to 'put a hold' on the account, but like you said, without someone helping you with your ENs, the deposits just keep pouring out from there. It becomes hard to stop them.<P>I think that the error with most people's Plan B is that they confuse it with being a little, well...$#!tty, and distant. When I was in stride with Plan B, I was always pleasant and agreeable to her when she called, or stopped by...but I initiated no conversations at all...still haven't.<P>This is going to sound harsh, Lynn...but you really shouldn't expect him to give you any consideration at all...it is just defensive, and realistic not to expect any sort of outward displays of love, and consideration. Look on the bright side (if there actually is one)...at least he isn't campaigning against you like Teri is me. I can tell you that that hurts more than the lack of love does. When someone is projecting all of their negative feelings on you, and you add your own to it, it just devastates you to the core, with no chance at rationalizing, or way to escape the overwhelming guilt. I have done nothing, save not set the world on fire, and maybe some neglect because of my own depression...and I am having everything yanked out from underneath me because of the selfishness of others. Then, I get told that I am wrong to feel the way I do. Okay...I guess. What else can I do?<P>Plan B sounds like a wise choice...plus, maybe some chicken soup...for your strep, and soul! I do know one vital thing about strep, and families...throw away all of your toothbrushes because strep will makes its rounds through them, if you keep them together. Sounds a little anal, but when we did that, we quit passing it around so much. Plus, you keep yours away from the kids' until you are better...then get yourself a new one, too. Strep is highly contagious at some point. God bless. -Mike

Mike,<P>I'm still not feeling better but I appreciate the toothbrush advice. I plan to be nice to my H when I see him in the AM. I will also see him at son's ballgame tomorrow night if he shows up. I have been fighting the idea of calling in sick tomorrow and begging him to stay here with me in bed all day. No sex of course, I'm not stupid and I am very sick. Bad idea, I know and I will not even suggest it but I just needed the thought to help me get through today. Yesterday he said he would call me today but he didn't. Not sure if it is out of respect for my no-contact plan or just avoidance as usual.<BR>Either way it hurts. I know I'm the one setting myself up for the pain by expecting consideration. It is hard to explain but until a yr ago, my H was the most considerate person of my feelings that I knew. It is hard to not have that anymore. If I never had it, I don't think I would miss it so much.<P>One thing on your situation. When the situation at my office came to a full fledge blowout, it was the people who left that kept on and on trying to make the situation worse. I haven't shared all the details of that here because it doesn't pertain to marriage but it was quite a soap opera. Anyway, the people(the entire Mgt staff except me) who walked out without notice spent the next 3 months trying to convince the world, our clients, and themselves that our business who be closed within 3 months. They couldn't leave it alone. It was just like you said with your "so-called friends" and Teri. They set out to make my Dad, me and his company the bad guys. They did alot of damage to our client base but NOT to our reputation. While I constantly wished they would just shut the heck up, I eventually saw that the guilty were the one's who couldn't let things alone. They were the ones who felt they HAD to explain things. Yeah, Teri may be trying to cause you pain but most likely it is just to divert the attention away from her and help her cope with the decisions she made, which she knows were wrong. The folks that walked out on me Dec 1 will never feel justified in their decision as long as the company I work for is in business. They just can't wait to say, I told you so.<P>Guess what though? My company, just like you, has chosen to remain strong, stick to our values and survive. We are injured but not dead 9 months later. You are a survivor and she can spread all the venom in the world but the people in your town will eventually see through it. I can't imagine anyone that who knows you doesn't like you. I don't know her and that is a good thing but I think she is sowing her seed on rocky soil. She may see the sprouts pop up but the roots will never form because they are not based on the truth. <P>I truly hope things improve for you and your sons. When does school start back up there? My kids started last week. This coming week will be the first week of balancing homework, ball games, housework, yardwork, and work work for me. I expect it will be pretty easy for me to stay in Plan B since my H has no phone and I have no way of contacting him. I wish I didn't love him so much.<P>I also just wish I had someone to hold me. It hurts so bad sometimes. Thanks, my friend, for your support. I hope you have a good night. Lynn

waiting_for_her,<BR><B>I'm not sure that a letter is in keeping with Plan B's philosophy.</B><BR>??? I'm a bit confused. A letter is called for always in Plan B.<P>Also, <B>When I was in stride with Plan B, I was always pleasant and agreeable to her when she called, or stopped by...but I initiated no conversations at all...still haven't.</B><BR>Why ANY contact in Plan B? PLan B calls for No contact or at least as little as possible. May be difficult if there are children and you live away from all family & friends, but otherwise it should be NO CONTACT. You should not accept any contact from her.<P>peoplepleaser,<P>I'm a bit confused as to what you are expecting from Plan B and the reason for going to Plan B.<P><B>Didn't know her when he moved in but 3 weeks ago, began PA.</B><BR>He has been having an affair for only 3 weeks? Then now is NOT the time to go into Plan B.<P>Plan A is what you need to do. Understand your own behavior and how you deal with your h. Show him you can love him unconditionally.<P><B>At any rate, the only way that I'm going to put up with this and be able to continue to love him is to make sure that I don't put myself in a position that gives me hope and then drops me flat when he leaves.<P>While I am extremely disappointed that he put himself in this situation to begin with, I am more so disappointed that he refused to move out, even temporarily.</B><BR>Hasn't he already left?<P>You need to show him you do love him (Plan A). Running out this early in the affair will show him you are NOT strong and also you don't want him.<P><B>Don't want to cause him any more pain or apply any unnecessary pressure. </B><BR>So sticking around and loving him will cause him MORE pain than you leaving?<P><B>I told him I was not giving up and that I would be here for him when he was ready. However, all this was said verbally. Is it a good idea to follow with a letter? There is absolutely nothing left for me to say to him. He knows how I feel. I have nothing to add.</B><BR>When you go to Plan B, then a letter is essential. It lets you put all the thoughts you need to and in a way which is not threatening. It states "just the facts." You love him, you want the marriage to [censored] & grow, the pain is too much for you to deal with and you will speak with him AFTER the affair is over & he has agreed to total separation from her.<P>Also, he can have the letter to reread again if he does not understand something.<P><B>Therefore Plan B it is. I'm very scared and lonely but I'm sure this is for the best.</B><BR>Why do you think it is the best? Ho wlong have you been in Plan A?<P><B>This allows him time to think without me pressuring him or trying to influence his opinions.</B><BR>You, as his wife do not want to show him you love him?<P><B>He needs to see if she can meet all his needs.</B><BR>This is one of the reasons for Plan B, but again ONLY after a very good foundation in Plan A.<P><B>He is planning on coming by tomorrow to take them to school. I will try to be ready to leave when he gets here. </B><BR>You are leaving where? He doesn't live in the house so you are leaving because?<P><P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

No, I am the confused one...where is this Plan B letter mentioned in Steve's article?...I find no reference to such a letter, and what are you supposed to say? If no contact is to be made...then the letter is in violation of that, wouldn't you say, since a letter <I>is</I> contact?<P>The second issue is more succintly defined...<B>initiate no contact</B>...nothing mentioned about refusing contact, and yes, there are children involved in my situation, and Lynn's as well, so that is simply <B>not</B> realistic.

<B>one...where is this Plan B letter mentioned in Steve's article?...I</B><BR>What "article" are you speaking of? The Plan B letter is discussed in Surviving An Affair, page 80. Everyone <I>should</I> read the book prior to implementing any of the info here so there are no misunderstandings about what to do. Also, the Plans should be followed "as close to the letter as humanly possible" with very, very few exceptions (Dr Willard Harley & Steve Harleys words to me & others here.)<P>The letter is used to initiate Plan B. You discuss what your reasons and intentions are of Plan B.<P><B>The second issue is more succintly defined...initiate no contact</B><BR>"Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery."<P>In the letter it should read, "Until then I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will not help you financially. I have made arrangements with friends so you may visit/pick up/drop off the children, but I will not be here when you drop by. If you wish to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will be through the (pre-arranged) friends."<P>If you have ANY contact, you are fulfilling some of her needs.<P><B>and yes, there are children involved in my situation, and Lynn's as well, so that is simply not realistic.</B><BR>Just because there are children does not mean it is unrealistic to have no contact.<P>Remember, you are doing what you can to save your marriage. Steps have to be taken which may not be the most pleasant or easiest to do. But regardless, they must be done. <P>Here is a description of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A & Plan B</A> from Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited August 13, 2001).]

Chris<P>I have read SAA, in fact yesterday. I also have read HNHN and LoveBusters and everything on the MB website. I fully understand what I am doing. My H declared I'm not happy in Jan of this year and moved out in March. He lived with his parents until May and then moved into his current place. Last Wed, I got proof from PI that he was having an affair and told him I knew on Thursday. At that time, it had been over 6 months that I have been in Plan A. Trying to do all I could to improve myself and avoid all LB. I failed sometimes in the beginning because he was lying to me alot then. <BR> <P>At any rate, he says affair started about 3 weeks ago and in one conversation he says it doesn't really mean that much and in another conversation he says he doesn't know if he loves her or not. <P>I made my decision to Plan B as a protective measure to my love for him. He simply wanted to continue both relationships and see which one felt better. Well we have 2 small children(5&10) that do not understand "family" time with Daddy then Daddy leaves. <P>The time we spend together is wonderful. Prior to the discovery of the affair, it almost always included intimate time for me and my H too. While this may serve to help him feel better, it was becoming too hard for me to bear. My expectations were high and his ability to meet them was non-existence.<P>Therefore, Plan B. I have struggled with this, especially yesterday. I want desparately to be with him but I just don't think it is for the best. I think honesty is best right now and for me to pretend to be non-resentful against this OW and their relationship is unrealistic. I know my limits and I am trying to stay within them. <P>This is his decision to be made. Yes the affair is new, to the best of my knowledge. But the marital problems and his inability to make decisions regarding it and our children have been going on for a year. <P>I may decide to go back to Plan A for a while if he keeps his doctors appointment for depression. This will at least show me he has made an effort to help himself. Up to this point, this has been a one-sided effort.<P>I really don't know what I'm going to do yet. I'm very confused and hurt and still in love with my WS. I am also home sick today so I'm just yucky in general at the moment.<P>I want to write OW a letter to tell her to leave my H and my family alone. Are there any Harley rules on this type of thing?<P>Lynn<P><BR>

Hi Lynn,<P>Let me jump in!!<P>First, let me tell you that <B>Chris</B> is a <B>PRO</B> at MB stuff -- although I'm sure he wishes he wasn't. He knows his stuff better than most around here!<P>If you aren't ready to go into Plan B, and it sounds like you're not if you still love him and the affair is only three WEEKS old. Plan A efforts take TIME!! Six to eighteen months is the average time, and some never go into Plan B. Plan B is to PRESERVE the love that is left, not to "shake up" your spouse (although it does that quite nicely).<P>I say STICK TO PLAN A.<P>The letter to the OW is up to you, and I don't believe I've ever seen that addressed (other than the "No Contact" letter). If you are in Plan A, and avoiding LB's like crazy, then sending the letter would NOT be a good idea. <P>So, I think my question might be -- are you following Harley concepts, or are you doing a you-thing? I did a me-thing in my first marriage, and it didn't work very well, which is why it's OVER. <P>Now, in my second marriage, I am practicing Harley concepts religiously (beginning with RADICAL HONESTY). <P>So, again, in a nutshell, I think you're not ready to go to Plan B. Stick with Plan A.<P>Listen to Chris, he's da man.<P>Keep coming here, writing and venting. It's safe here.<P>Best wishes.

Oh, and Lynn, Plan B is <B>after</B> Plan A and is a seamless transition...<P>Like...<P>After months of no lovebusters, meeting emotional needs, and building yourself up -- thus showing the WS they have a safe harbor in your marriage, in LOVE you transition to Plan B... seamless... Plan A means I love you and want to work it out, and Plan B means I love you and want to work it out but I have to do this to preserve what love is left.<P>I'm just trying to help you understand the difference.<P>THREE WEEKS is SUCH a short time... you can't convince your wayward spouse it is safe to return home so quickly. <P>Instead, by implimenting a Plan B you are saying, in essense, "get out of the affair or it's over"...<P>Gosh, even with my ex-H, I never went into Plan B (well, until I divorced him and moved, which was kind of by accident)... he came over for dinner a few times, was invited to family events, he brought us donuts every Saturday morning, I acknowledged his birthday, we talked daily, and all the while, yes, it hurt, but it felt right and loving. No, it didn't save the marriage, but I think we both feel that we were kind to eachother and that we, at least, deserved that as our ending. He never did end his affair that was the final straw in the marriage, well, until last week, but that's another story and really none of my beeswax (although I am nosey and find it interesting )...<P>Lynn, I just fear you are moving MUCH too quickly and although you've read everything you can't quite hang onto the concepts espoused here.<P>I hope I haven't offended you in any way, it is not my intention at all.

<B>I have read SAA, in fact yesterday. I also have read HNHN and LoveBusters and everything on the MB website. I fully understand what I am doing.</B><BR>Great!<P><B>I think honesty is best right now and for me to pretend to be non-resentful against this OW and their relationship is unrealistic. I know my limits and I am trying to stay within them. </B><BR>Yes, honesty is best. It is not part of MB principles to be non-resentful of the affair or those involved. It is part of MB principles to check yourself and the way you act towards your WS.<P><B>My expectations were high and his ability to meet them was non-existence.</B><BR>In the stage you are at you should have no expectation of your husband and you should not epect him to fulfill you in any way.<P><B>I may decide to go back to Plan A for a while if he keeps his doctors appointment for depression. </B><BR>"In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B. "<P><B>I really don't know what I'm going to do yet.</B><BR>Then don't do anything.<P><B> I'm very confused and hurt and still in love with my WS. I am also home sick today so I'm just yucky in general at the moment.</B><BR>See above.<P>You do sound as if you know what you are doing. However, before you proceed with Plan B, you need to understand why you are doing it (you cannot continue to see him. It hurts to much to communicate with him and you are LB towards him all the time) and what you hope to achieve (you are NOT worrying about him or your marriage, you are learning to live without him and growing stronger). Plan B is not to force the spouse to make a decision though.<P>Good luck with the strep!<P>Along the toothbrush line - perhaps buy a new brush, use it once then give it to your h? LOL<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Although I've been pretty much comotose today, I woke up this afternoon thinking I might not be ready for "no contact" yet. While the idea is great, I don't think I'm strong enough to stick to it and that makes me look like I'm wishy-washy. I don't want to appear to be so easily manipulated by him. <P>Tonight at son's game, I simply said "I have been thinking and some of the things I asked of you on Saturday may have been unfair. I was just so shocked at the reality of your infidelity. I was afraid that the pain of you leaving was hurting me more than the good times we had during the visit was helping. I don't want to miss out on the opportunities for us to have a good time together, we just need to make sure the good times outweigh the pain caused by your leaving at the end of the day." <P>He said " I understand what you are saying". He seems pleased and relieved.<P>End of marriage conversation.<P>Throughout the game, he talked about work some. They are going to start working 10 hr nights. I'm glad because this means he will have to leave his place at 8 each night instead of 10. That cuts out most of the time he could spend with OW in the evening. By the time he gets up and takes a shower and eats, he will be pushed for time. <P>I don't know if I handled the situation properly or not. I did take him a bottle of water and half of a subway sub to the game, since I was sure he wouldn't have eaten and I had to get something for myself and son anyway. He thanks me several times for that.<P>Anyway, when leaving I asked him to let me know when he was coming back to take kids to school. He said in the morning. I told him I appreciated knowing because it helped me prepare. He hugged me goodbye .I asked him if he read any of the Love Busters book and he said some. I ask if he was going to keep his doctors appointment and he said he was sure about that yet. In other words, NO!<P>I just turned around and got in my van and said , see ya later and left. <P>Without help for his depression, there is no way that he is going to be capable of making good decisions. While he knows he something is very wrong and he had already been diagnosed by Dr. once before, he still is unwilling to accept the reality that he must get help for this condition.<P>I suppose I am back to Plan A but I have to figure out how to modify my expectations. Everyone says I should have none of him right now. How is that possible? Is there a course available for turning off disappointment and pain?<P>I really need help with this guys. I'm not sure how to continue to meet his EN without having any of mine met in return. Should I not just be honest with him? Should I let him read the SAA book? Should I just back off and act as if I don't care one way or another if he is around? <P>Help me please!<P>Lynn

Lynn, I waffled after I first decided to Plan B, but then went back and did it again later. You need to do either plan A or plan B, it's your decision. But do them "by the book" (SAA). Plan A as long as you can handle it. In your situation, it may be really difficult, but only you know what you can handle. Go to the notable posts and read some of Lostva's posts about plan A - she's the MB saint of plan A - if you want to continue with contact.<P>I was scared to death of no contact, but it worked in my case. It was different than yours, but my H was also living with OW. He came back after one month of no contact, but he did return to her after 1.5 months. They have finally ended their relationship after 2 more months of no contact after I filed for divorce.<P>The letter is VERY important, IMHO. I found out later that my H carried it around with him everywhere and read and reread it. It told him all the wonderful qualities I love about him and why I was willing to wait for him to give up OW. I sent a copy to OW, as recommended by the Harley's, with the recommended note at the bottom saying that I love my H and plan to wait for him. <P>If you decide later to try plan B again, I'd be glad to send you a copy of my letter. There are a number of plan b letters available on this website that I copied and I could send those to you too.<P>Good luck. Take care of yourself.<P>

I believe you did very good Plan A stuff. <P>As far as not expecting anything, yes it is difficult. When you get the disappointment, don’t react to it in front of him. Wait till he’s gone.<P><B>While the idea is great, I don't think I'm strong enough to stick to it and that makes me look like I'm wishy-washy. I don't want to appear to be so easily manipulated by him. </B><BR>It’s not that you will appear that he can “manipulate” you, it’s that he won’t believe you when you tell him you will do something. If you waiver in Plan B without his agreement to terms, then he will be less likely to believe you with anything else.<P><B>I don't know if I handled the situation properly or not. </B><BR>I think you handled it superbly!<P><B>I'm not sure how to continue to meet his EN without having any of mine met in return. </B><BR>Grin & bear it. One step at a time.<P><B>Should I not just be honest with him? </B><BR>Be honest. But don’t volunteer you think he is an a$$. If he asks what he can do, let him know.<P><B>Should I let him read the SAA book? </B><BR>If he wants to. Leave it out where he can see it but don’t wave it in his face. Tell him what you have learned from the book (as far as your behaviors which led up to this point.) NO FINGERPOINTING!<P><B>Should I just back off and act as if I don't care one way or another if he is around? </B><BR>Exactly the opposite! Show him you do care. You need to be someone he wants to be with. Don‘t compete with ow though. Be yourself.<P>Look at it this way. Do you want to be around people who don’t care if your there or not?<P>You’re doing great. Go slow, slow, slow.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>