Nellie,<BR>I'm starting a new post so we can get off of Bryan's. Here was your last post:<P>Elliott,<BR>I don't recall reading anything in Surviving an Affair or in the articles on this board that said that a marriage should be ended based on one of the party's emotional state. Could you point me to that?<P>I never said that your H's reaction to your affair was not excessive. However, many of the actions you described are extremely common. There have been a number of posts, for instance, asking for advice on how to tap the phone, how to read the WS's email, etc. There have been BS's here who admitted to picking someone up and sleeping with them within days of discovery. I would not be surprised if most divorced or separated custodial parents would immediately suspect parental kidnapping if they could not find their child. <P>Are you saying that the affair was your H's fault because he didn't love, honor, and cherish you? You made the decision - not him. The affair is YOUR responsibility, as was pointed out in this months' MB newsletter. <P>Unfortunately, affairs DO happen in marriages where both spouses love, honor, and cherish each other. Many betrayers freely admit that their affair was NOT about the quality of the marriage, but about them. Many affairs are a consequence of depression.<P>Nellie,<BR>Please read the section "The Giver & Taker" very thoroughly. I went through each of the stages and I was the giver, my fault, but I'm a noncontroversial person. I am not saying the affair was my husbands fault by any means. I'm saying as a result of me withdrawing emotionally from the marriage I was very vulnerable, had no self esteem and did not have the courage to leave because of finances. And yes, I was very depressed. My reason for depression was because I felt I was trapped, I knew I didn't love him and I could not and would not give anymore. I begged him to go to counseling and to work things out for the kids sake. Things might have worked out if he was willing to at least try, but he refused. And something else to think about, before he was served papers, he was already sleeping with someone and got her pregnant, so did he legally have an affair? Yes, according to my attorney. <P>You are right, I don't know how a BS feels, just as you don't know how emotional abuse feels. Emotional abuse is very real and affects both men and women. I will tell you I did feel betrayed because of everything I put into the marriage with nothing in return, over and over -- again and again. Betrayed because I was never trusted, never complimented and never spoken highly of. The only nice thing I truly remember him saying is that I was a wonderful mother. That is something he can never take away from me, but yet after the girls came to live with me, these are the words out of his mouth, "you are nothing but a loser", "they have a whore for a mother", "you are never there for the girls", "you let the girls run the streets", "if you were home instead of at your second job, your daughter would not have made a C on her report card", etc., etc...... That man will never be happy with himself. I feel sorry for the baby that was brought into this world because 85% of people that remarry within a year of their divorce --- end in divorce as well.<BR>

Elliott,<P>I am certainly not going to defend your H's choice to have a revenge affair - if you do a search on my posts you would see how I feel about dating while still married. <P>Some people have tried to convince me that my H was emotionally abusive, but I'm not buying it. He was often impatient and irritable, and sometimes treated me like he thought I was stupid, but I am an adult. I don't feel stupid just because someone tells me I am.<P>Depression is a biochemical imbalance. Feeling "trapped" or that you feel that you don't love your spouse does not cause depression. However, the inverse is true - suffering from depression can cause you to feel trapped or to feel that you don't love your spouse anymore. People who are depressed, and people who have affairs, almost invariably rewrite the history of their marriages from a negative perspective.<P>Nothing you have said sounds any different from the justifications other WS's have given. If you are that unhappy, the right thing to do is to give your spouse a choice - counseling or you will leave. There is never an acceptable reason for an affair.

Nellie,<P>You know I'm having a difficult time understanding what your point is. I have also gone back through the pages to find out where you have been coming from.<P>I also have read where Elliot has been and what has happened to her.<P>I guess my question to you is: What point are you trying to make to Elliot?<P>In one breath you say that there is no such thing as abuse, and you classify it as *depression*. Then in a few threads a ways back you say that you would never stay with a man that was abusive. Then when Elliot says she's had an affair (that is with another man AFTER the fact that her marriage is OVER and they have applied for divorce - correct me if I'm wrong Elliot) you rip her to shreds.<P>We all react to posts based on our OWN experiences. What I see is your anger in response to your husband who had an affair. It seems that with that in mind, Elliot, representing a woman who had an affair with your husband and it's your way of telling her how you feel.<P>One thing that I haven't seen is acknowledgement that you KNOW what abuse is like. Neither Elliot or myself have said that having an affair is right, yet somehow you are linking Elliots affair to the treatment of her husband to her. <P>Elliot? Am I missing something? Did you have an affair because your husband was abusive to you?<P>I don't know...I just don't get it and would like clarification from the both of you so we can put this to rest. <BR>

Elan,<P>I'm not sure what you are asking.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Then in a few threads a ways back you say that you would never stay with a man that was abusive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I never said that. Could you please point me to that post.<P>I believe that Elliott did not say that her affair occurred after the divorce was filed - I believe she said her H had an affair that occurred immediately after separation, but before the divorce was filed. <P>I did not classify depression as abuse. I said that depression causes the sufferer to interpret everything in a very negative light, and to feel unloved even when that might not be the case.<P>I believe Elliott was the one who linked her affair to her H's treatment of her:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I'm saying as a result of me withdrawing emotionally from the marriage<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>which she attributed to her H's treatment of her. What I believe is that she, and only she, can take responsibility for the affair. <P>What makes me angry is when WS's attempt to justify their affairs.

Nellie, <P>I am so angry right now I could spit nails.<P>I have known you for two years, and during that time I have found you to be intellectually stimulating and thoughtful.<P>Please tell these people, and me, that you did not mean what was implied: <P>That it is somehow the abused person's fault if they choose to believe the abuser...<P>I am concerned with these words:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>...I am an adult. I don't feel stupid just because someone tells me I am.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know you didn't mean that the way it sounded. Did you?<P>And, as an aside, if you were told over and over for nearly 20 years that you were stupid, it IS emotional ABUSE.<P>Do not bilittle the experience of emotional abuse. It is real.<P>And, of course, I agree that there is no excuse for an affair. However, if you'd like to discuss the chemical changes, as well as the emotional turmoil, in the mind of an abused person, which might lead them to do something that goes against everything in them (i.e. an affair) then let's talk. Not an excuse -- but, like your H's depression, a reason that makes sense.<P>

Nellie,<P>Emotional abuse is very real! I am not a gorgeous woman, but I am fairly attractive, I think. However, for the years I was with my Ex, I believed that I was a fat cow, stupid, ugly, a whore, etc... And ya know what? I was an adult. I am not a fat cow...I believe cows weigh more than 110-115 lbs. I am not stupid...I have a very high IQ, I'm not ugly...I may not be beautiful, but I'm not ugly. And I'm not a whore...I don't sleep with lots of men. <P>Emotional abuse cuts very deeply into the core of ones being. I remember my ex calling me names and me begging him to just punch me in the face and get it over with. It hurt less. I still struggle with the emotional scars that my ex made.<P>And you know what?? It wasn't my fault!<P>Mitzi

Sheryl,<P>No, my H did not tell me over the course of 20 years that I was stupid - what I said was that he sometimes treated me as if he thought I was stupid. It wasn't until after he left that he started calling me stupid on several occasions (never in person, interestingly - just by email). <P>I honestly believe that if a person's self-esteem is intact by the time they reach adulthood, they will not believe that they are stupid or whatever just because someone calls them that. It sure as H*** could make them angry to be called names, but that is a different matter altogether. <P>Perhaps it is different for those who have grown up feeling unloved by their parents, those whose self-esteem is not intact. I believe that feeling unloved by his father had a lot to do with my H's lack of self-esteem, and his propensity for depression (though I think there was a genetic component in the depression). I think he was never capable of really feeling loved, even though he said that I always acted as if I loved him, largely because of his childhood. I suppose it is quite possible if someone's self-esteem is already severely damaged for them to believe the negative things another adult says about them. What I don't believe is that the words of another person can convince an emotionally healthy adult that he or she is a horrible person. <P>There was interesting post - yesterday, I think - on the subject of self-esteem over at affairs.com, by a former WS.<P>Mitzi,<P>From what you have posted previously, you suffered severe physical abuse at the hands of your H. I am not sure that it is possible to separate the effects of that from the effects of name calling. I suspect that physical abuse would make someone less able to deal with name calling, etc. <P>I NEVER said that the name calling is the fault of anyone but the name-caller.

Hmmm... Nellie,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>Perhaps it is different for those who have grown up feeling unloved by their parents, those whose self-esteem is not intact. ...I suppose it is quite possible if someone's self-esteem is already severely damaged for them to believe the negative things another adult says about them. What I don't believe is that the words of another person can convince an emotionally healthy adult that he or she is a horrible person.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B> <P>Gosh... what can I say to this? <P>I am wondering, do I actually **know** an emotionally healthy (self-actualized) adult? I don't think so. Everyone I know is a work in progress.<P>Plus, of course, I am a sexual abuse survivor, as are many (too many) women on these boards. How can I say that it doesn't matter what your past is... when clearly it does have some bearing on how you (as the victim of abuse) react to the abuse. <P>Nellie, I wish I could get you to understand how it feels to be systematically abused in a covert way. It would have been easier, as Mitzi said, to be punched in the face. You'd understand the hurt that way. To be called a fat whore or a stupid cow or just pushed away for years by the person who is suppose to love you the most causes a kind of pain that I simply cannot describe completely. <P>I am not a weak person, and despite my molestation as a child and other abuses I suffered (as usual, it's all over the board and I don't want to bore anyone with a retelling) I think I've managed pretty well. I know I'm no dummy, and I know I'm not ugly, and I know I have worth... but when David called me a pig, he tapped into an area of weakness. See, that's the MO of the abuser... they KNOW what will hurt, and they go right to it. So, I guess in a way you are right, in that, if there was no area of weakness, there'd be no place to go. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>There was interesting post - yesterday, I think - on the subject of self-esteem over at affairs.com, by a former WS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>I've never gone there... is the name actually affairs.com? Is it a good site, or will it hurt me to visit there?

Sheryl,<P>I left out part of the site name, sorry - it is actually <A HREF="http://www.affairs-help.com." TARGET=_blank>www.affairs-help.com.</A> Have you visited there? I think some of the posts in the Closure section are very helpful, though too many are of the "dump the bum" variety. I think the section for those having an affair is pretty awful, though not quite as bad as the tow board, with a fairly high incidence of "multiple personalities."<P>I am not sure that being a "work in progress" necessarily means that someone is not emotionally healthy. Obviously there is a wide range of emotional health, or lack thereof. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>See, that's the MO of the abuser... they KNOW what will hurt, and they go right to it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that is pretty much the MO of many, if not most, people, and probably virtually all children, when they are very angry, threatened, or hurt. It's not very nice, to put it mildly, and not the best way to deal with problems, but does that make them all abusers? <P>Perhaps the problem is in the definition of the word abuser is that I think that it implies that their is a power differential between the abuser and abusee, such as between a parent and child or between a drill sergeant and a private. The essense of marriage to me is that the two spouses are equal.

Actually, Nellie, about affairs.com, yes, I have visited that site, I just didn't know that's what it was called. The link was given by someone here and I did go see it. It seemed a lot like here, but without the traffic. <P>As far as the rest of what you've written... sigh... I honestly do see what you're trying to say. That doesn't mean I agree though... because, as I said earlier, unless you've been on the receiving end of emotional abuse, you honestly and truly CANNOT understand what it does to your psyche and soul. I will try to respond to a couple of points though:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I think that is pretty much the MO of many, if not most, people, and probably virtually all children, when they are very angry, threatened, or hurt. It's not very nice, to put it mildly, and not the best way to deal with problems, but does that make them all abusers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>No, that doesn't make them all abusers... let me see if I can articulate the difference. An abuser has malicious intent, and it isn't about the situation at hand. It is about power and control. Just as rape is not about sex, abuse is not about rage. Yes, rape has a component of sex, and abuse has the component of rage -- but the real bottom line is control... which leads me to your second point:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Perhaps the problem is in the definition of the word abuser is that I think that it implies that their is a power differential between the abuser and abusee, such as between a parent and child or between a drill sergeant and a private. The essense of marriage to me is that the two spouses are equal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Make no mistake, in an abusive situation, there is a person in power. <P>How many times can you get beaten (physically, emotionally or verbally) into submission before you begin to realize that if you are to keep your sanity in the relationship you must abide by the "rules" set up by the abuser? Obviously, the answer will vary. You seem to think that you would not accept the abuse, but what you don't understand, from the victim's standpoint, is that you seemingly have no choice. There are all sorts of fears that keep women hanging on to men who hurt them -- I'm sure you've heard all the reasons before -- children, financial, moral (vows)...<P>I guess, Nellie, that you are stronger than many of us here, who have an intimate knowledge of abuse; some on many levels. I spent my entire marriage pretending it was normal to be treated the way I was. I had therapists and doctors and friends tell me he was abusive all throughout the marriage -- from the first door he ripped off the hinges about a month after we married, to that fateful night of my spending the entire night rolled into the fetal position on the kitchen floor with him towering over me, 18 years later. I could tell stories of what happened in between, and believe me, I have stories.<P>I have spent my entire life glossing over the things that were done to me-- in the name of parenting, and friendship, and marriage. <P>I am a survivor of abuse. I won't go backwards now. <P>{I am nothing if not dramatic, I know}.

Nellie:<P>I thought about your post...went out for dinner with friends, and then came home still feeling a mite upset over your words and what I took to be insulting undertones towards people (women in particular) that left their marriages because abuse. So to respond, I have taken the liberty of showing you what you wrote yourself in reference to abuse.<P><B>Nellie's statement: posted July 24, 2000 03:49 PM </B> <BR> <BR>"nothing my H does could make me stop loving him, because the crueler he is, the more I know that that is not the real him, that it is addiction/depression." (Elan's question: if he slapped the hell out of you, would you just say, "that's ok honey, I know it's because you are depressed. <P><B>Nellies statement: posted October 24, 2000 02:20 PM</B> <BR> <BR>I did not say that you should stay if you were being abused. (Elan's question: if you typed this Nellie, what DO you mean?) I just think that telling your spouse that they didn't fulfill you as a husband is cruel and hurtful, and not justifiable under any circumstances. My H said a number of hurtful things to me, but thank goodness nothing like that. (Elan's question: and IF he DID same cruel and hurtful things to you, what WOULD you do?)<P>You should never cast aspersions on a man's manliness. It is not only cruel but dangerous. My nephew is dead because his murderer's girlfriend questioned what kind of man he was not to stand up for her sufficiently when she and my nephew argued. (Elan's question: does this mean that if you stick up for yourself, even in a marriage, it's bad news?)<P><B>Nellies statement: posted December 01, 2000 09:45 PM </B> <P>To say that "kids are resilient" in a gross overgeneralization. Some kids are resilient; many are not. There is research that shows that over half of children of divorce experience serious psychological problems 5 or 10 years later related to the divorce. (Elan's note: I would be interested to hear what your thoughts on children observing mental, emotional and financial abuse would be)<P><B>Nellies statements: posted August 12, 2001 06:37 PM</B> <P> No one can "brainwash" you.(Elan's note: wonder what pyschologists and pyschiatrists would do with this one!)<P> How could you throw away 16 years of marriage and your family without making any attempt to make things better? (Elan's note: I left after 20 years -- A L I V E, he had a gun, I didn't. The way my husband made things *better* was with abuse -- and because I didn't stay, that means it's MY fault?)<P>What takes strength is staying and trying to make things better (Elan's note: why don't you ask the countless women who are DEAD now why they didn't succeed in making things better?)<P>No, I do not understand this concept of "mental abuse." (Elan's note - <B>NO YOU DON'T</B>)<P><BR>

Sheryl,<P>I think we need to differentiate between physical abuse and anything else. I am NOT talking about marriages where there is physical abuse, or the threat of physical abuse. Clearly if you are afraid that you will be physically assaulted if you protest when your spouse is yelling at you/calling you names - that is a different situation. Threat of physical abuse comes under the category of physical abuse.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How many times can you get beaten (physically, emotionally or verbally) into submission before you begin to realize that if you are to keep your sanity in the relationship you must abide by the "rules" set up by the abuser?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I guess the concept I have a hard time understanding is getting verbally beaten into submission. My father enjoyed debating, I enjoy debating, and my kids enjoy debating. Some of us have been called stubborn (You've never noticed that trait in me, have you? ). Of course the kids don't always abide by the "rules" of debate, and sometimes they name-call, etc no matter how much they are discouraged from doing so. I have one adult daughter who likes nothing better than a good argument - often about philosophical issues or whether I'm raising the kids according to her standards. I don't know if I've ever "won" an argument with this daughter. I doubt that either of us have ever admitted defeat, either. Sometimes I tell her I'm just not going to argue anymore - that makes her really mad. <P>I realize that there is a difference between debating and name-calling - but if someone stood there and called me a stupid idiot (and my kids have done so on numerous occasions) it would just make me p**** off. When my H told me I was stupid, sure it was hurtful, but mostly it just made me angry. <P>Sometimes I wonder how much of this has to do with whether anger is an emotion that is allowed in one's childhood home. I got the impression that my H was not "allowed" to be angry as a child. I've never seen him argue with his parents. His aunt wrote him a nasty letter because he hadn't gone to visit his mother in the hospital before she died (of course no one knew she was going to die, and my H had even asked his father if he should come, and his father said there was no reason to), my H was understandably hurt and angry, yet he never said a word to his aunt. The anger has to go somewhere. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited August 15, 2001).]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <BR>"nothing my H does could make me stop loving him, because the crueler he is, the more I know that that is not the real him, that it is addiction/depression." (Elan's question: if he slapped the hell out of you, would you just say, "that's ok honey, I know it's because you are depressed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was referring to the way he was behaving like a jerk and the things he had said. The point was that his behavior was so completely uncharacteristic. And, no, I do not think I would stop loving him if he physically abused me - that doesn't mean I would want to be anywhere near him under those circumstances, but I believe that love is permanent. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <BR>I did not say that you should stay if you were being abused. (Elan's question: if you typed this Nellie, what DO you mean?) I just think that telling your spouse that they didn't fulfill you as a husband is cruel and hurtful, and not justifiable under any circumstances. My H said a number of hurtful things to me, but thank goodness nothing like that. (Elan's question: and IF he DID same cruel and hurtful things to you, what WOULD you do?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd be pretty d*** angry. In my opinion, if your H is constantly calling you names or yelling at you, and you have told him how much it hurts your feelings, have gone to counseling, and told him that you are going to leave if it doesn't get better, then maybe you have "earned" the right to divorce him. Sometimes the leaving would shake him up - and if at this point he asks for a second chance and is willing to work on improving his interaction with you, you should give him the second chance, especially if there are children. <P>You do not, however, have the right to have an affair. You do not have the right to hurt him back by saying he did not fulfill you as a husband, etc.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You should never cast aspersions on a man's manliness. It is not only cruel but dangerous. My nephew is dead because his murderer's girlfriend questioned what kind of man he was not to stand up for her sufficiently when she and my nephew argued. (Elan's question: does this mean that if you stick up for yourself, even in a marriage, it's bad news?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't understand the relevance of this question to that paragraph. Sticking up for yourself does not necessitate casting aspersions on anyone's manliness. The point was that not only is that hurtful, but it can lead to murder. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>To say that "kids are resilient" in a gross overgeneralization. Some kids are resilient; many are not. There is research that shows that over half of children of divorce experience serious psychological problems 5 or 10 years later related to the divorce. (Elan's note: I would be interested to hear what your thoughts on children observing mental, emotional and financial abuse would be)<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is good for children to see their parents work through problems and improve their interactions. Divorce often means that they kids see interactions that are even more negative. <BR>If one parent is insulting/yelling at the other, the appropriate reaction on the part of the other parent is to firmly but calmly stand up for themselves - which I realize is easier said than done. It is NOT harmful for children to see their parents angry. It is ok for parents to argue (and I am not talking about fistfights here). <P>One of the most important thing that children can learn is that people who love each other can get really angry at each other and yet still love each other and work out their differences. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>No one can "brainwash" you.(Elan's note: wonder what pyschologists and pyschiatrists would do with this one!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We're not talking about food deprivation, water torture, and prison camps. I stand by my statement.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How could you throw away 16 years of marriage and your family without making any attempt to make things better? (Elan's note: I left after 20 years -- A L I V E, he had a gun, I didn't. The way my husband made things *better* was with abuse -- and because I didn't stay, that means it's MY fault?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If he was threatening you with a gun, that was physical abuse, which, as I said before, NOT what I am talking about. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What takes strength is staying and trying to make things better (Elan's note: why don't you ask the countless women who are DEAD now why they didn't succeed in making things better?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is irrelevant, since I was NOT talking about physical abuse. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>No, I do not understand this concept of "mental abuse."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And certainly this post didn't make it any clearer. Throughout this post you kept bringing up physical abuse. The use of false analogy makes it impossible to have a productive discussion about this topic. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited August 15, 2001).]

Nellie,<P>Okay, let's say that physical abuse is a different animal. <P>I was never "beat up" physically by David, in that, he never punched me in the face. He slapped me in the face once, slapped my body a few times, pulled my hair a few times (one or two times to get me out of the car)... but never an outright beating.<P>Also, there was the threat of violence that wasn't carried out -- the times he pulled over to the side of the freeway and kicked me out of the car, the times he pulled doors off hinges, punched holes in walls, and chased me down the street. Still, even when he "caught me" there wasn't a "beating"... grabbing, bruising, yes, a "beating", no. I did receive his message loud and clear though.<P>And then, the emotional/verbal or non-verbal beatings... the most covert ways of all to hurt someone you love -- and Nellie, I really hate going into this too much, for two reasons: one, it hurts, and two, some of it is so horrible, and David has posted here in the past, and I don't want to dirty his name more than it already has been... However, you just don't seem to "get" emotional abuse, and I hear a desire from you to "get it"... so I'm going to tell you some things that will hopefully show you what emotional abuse is all about.<P>There is the "obvious"...the serial cheating, the isolation (moving me 100 miles away from my family, friends, job to get away from OW's - left me with no car, three small children, and then he himself went back to that area to work, right where the OW were)... <P>I have written about one of the things he did to me before, and I have to tell you that it is one of the single most damaging things that David EVER did to me, and there's a whole story behind it - ready? - here goes:<P>David and I were working opposite shifts, we could not afford daycare for our three small children. Oldest daughter was in K, I found a program for middle daughter to go to pre-school free, and son was about 18 months old. <P>One day, David went to pick up middle daughter from pre-school and left older daughter on the playground at the park. She was on the swings and she fell. It was a nasty fall, and a woman across the park started screaming and ran to my daughter, who had broken her leg. David was nowhere to be found. The woman picked my daughter up, and began yelling out, still no David. What nobody knew, was that David had been having one of his affairs with pre-school teacher. He was "busy"... <P>No, I know this isn't about me yet, and just proves what an a$$ David was, but listen further, it all fits in...<P>So, obviously, eventually David does find out about our daughter, and takes her to the hospital. She's in a body cast for about six weeks. It was a bad break.<P>So, her K teacher agrees to come to the house twice a week to school our daughter, which is sooooooo kind and helpful. So, every Tues and Thurs, I come home from work at 2, after having gotten up at 4, pick up three kids, one in a body cast, and meet the teacher at our home. <P>I might add here to remember that David worked opposite shifts, so we barely saw each other, and my nights were more than full. It was like I was a single parent.<P>Okay, on with the story.<P>SOOOOOO... on one particular Tues or Thurs (I don't remember which) I pull up to the house, get out my kids and meet the teacher at the door. I unlock the door and step inside -- and was met with quite a surprise. My dirty clothes were strewn about the room, my dirty underwear were hanging from lamps and such... and in the bedroom, which I can see from the front door, there is writing on the wall... it's red... I tell the teacher and my kids to wait by the door, and I slowly head toward the bedroom...<P>...and I find the words, "You are a pig" written in big letters, across the white wall.<P>Needless to say, the teacher went home.<P>Now, the question is, why did he do this? Well, he said to teach me a lesson. Seems I wasn't keeping the house clean enough. I needed to be "embarrassed" into submission.<P>I, who worked 40 hours, went to bed at 10:30, got up a 4, worked, came home with three small children who needed supper and bathed and help with bits of homework (for the oldest)....<P>I didn't keep the house clean enough.<P>I needed to be punished.<P>So, Nellie... do I need to go on and give you more stories of emotional abuse... I gotta million of em, as they say...<P>And before you say I should have left, as many have, remember that I had three small children, and believed in marriage, like you do. I tried for more years than I can count. I finally hit the wall, because... I'd been driven into it a hundred times throughout the years.

Nellie<P>Good luck on the rest of your life.<P>Elan

Nyneve, <P>Let me take the liberty of responding to your post.<P>And forgive me, for I'll use some of Nellie's quotes to help me <tongue in cheek>:<P>Remember that your husband was "behaving like a jerk and the things he had said. The point was that his behavior was so completely uncharacteristic." I understand that you never"stop loving him if he physically abused me - that doesn't mean I would want to be anywhere near him under those circumstances, but I believe that love is permanent." So since he *really*didn't hit you, you were justified in staying in your marriage.<BR> <BR>If I was living in your shoes, "I'd be pretty d*** angry. In my opinion, if your H is constantly calling you names or yelling at you, and you have told him how much it hurts your feelings, have gone to counseling, and told him that you are going to leave if it doesn't get better, then maybe you have "earned" the right to divorce him. Sometimes the leaving would shake him up - and if at this point he asks for a second chance and is willing to work on improving his interaction with you, you should give him the second chance, especially if there are children." What *more* can I say. You *EARNED* the right to divorce him. Right on girlfriend! <P>As for your ex tossing dirty laundry all over the house and painting on the wall with red, "It is good for children to see their parents work through problems and improve their interactions." But remember "Divorce often means that they kids see interactions that are even more negative." I just don't understand Nyneve "If one parent is insulting/yelling at the other, the appropriate reaction on the part of the other parent is to firmly but calmly stand up for themselves - which I realize is easier said than done." Now why didn't you do that? "It is NOT harmful for children to see their parents angry. It is ok for parents to argue (and I am not talking about fistfights here)." <P>I personally think that all this *abuse* talk is a bunch of bull****. "One of the most important thing that children can learn is that people who love each other can get really angry at each other and yet still love each other and work out their differences." <P>Brainwashing is a bunch of bull too. "We're not talking about food deprivation, water torture, and prison camps." I don't care how he went about *mentally* or "emotionally" abusing you. It's all in your head. Perhaps you were *depressed*.<P>"If he was threatening you with a gun, that was physical abuse, which, as I said before, NOT what I am talking about." So quit yer damn whining! <P>---------------<BR>Elan's real response to Nynever and all others:<P>Abuse is REAL! It takes courage to leave and strength to survive. In the past three days, I've been blessed with seeing who the real hero's are. However, I have been reminded of the people out there that don't understand. <P>I know I can't change the world, and I know I can't change PEOPLE who don't understand. As much as I wanted my husband to stop the abuse, there was NOTHING I could do to change HIM. But what am I *explaining* this to you Nyneve? You understand, just like the countless of other women AND men who walked in these shoes. Maybe there is a reason why people like Nellie never will understand abuse. And quite frankly....it doesn't matter! :-) <P>To take a quote from a book called "I closed my eyes" by Michele Weldon:<P><B>"I am grateful that on this odyssey I have earned the right to see clearly and to listen closely to the wisdom of my own heart. When you not only question yourself, but you question basic truths. When faced with so much denial and so many complicated explanations, you try to see from the other's perspective. In trying to be reasonable. I lost the ability to reason.<P>I don't tell myself that I was not really the victim, but only married to a good man with a bad temper. The truth is, my husband abused me. I was his victim. I no longer shrink from that truth: it is as persistent, as healing, and as ultumately nurturing, as the rain. And I let the rain wash me, the truth heal my anger and the hurt.<P>Sadly, mine is an ordinary, very common story. But there is nothing ordinary about me or any woman who has awakened from the nightmare, who has stopped the damming dance with an abuser, who has opened her eyes...."</B><P>I am truly blessed. Thanks for reminding me where I came from and where I'm headed! Now THAT is truly a blessing!

Dear Elan,<P>Thank you for all of your words -- and the quote is truly awesome! <P>I am blessed too... and don't think I don't know it.<P>

Nellie, you obviously enjoy debate, are intelligent, and require a degree of "proof" not just someone's opinion re human behaviour, and that is all for the best. There are far to many uninformed opionions in this world allready. So let me ask you, have you done researched this topic in the psychological literature? Are you saying emotional and verbal abuse does not exist? If it does exist, what is your understanding of the victim, they are so by choice? Or have been previously damaged as children? (which makes them responsible for being abused as adults?, or does that mean their abuser is acting normally, just was ignorant of their actions effect.....if so, why are they ignorant, they cannot see? they won't ask for 3rd party help?..... and if so, isn't that neglectful?).<P>Did you go to <A HREF="http://www.verbalabuse.com" TARGET=_blank>www.verbalabuse.com</A> and do any research? No offense nellie, but your opinions come across as quite uniformed, I suspect you know little about psychology, or emotional injuries. You seek to seperate physical abuse into a seperate category (I am assuming because you cannot find any way to blame the victim), yet it is not....the category is abuse, the rationale is control of another human beings actions, the method is to tear down their identity so they look to the abuser for validation. The tools are many, physical pain, being only one, threat of pain (which is not PHYSICAL abuse, although you linked it so re having a gun, threat is emotional abuse), emotional abuse (making love conditional), and verbal (assaults of many kinds on another's self-worth) are equally as heinous, and every bit as destructive as beating the hell out of someone. You need to read the literature, read case studies, and go work in a womans shelter. While your verbal skills are admirable, your ignorance on this subject is obvious. This is not a debate over the existence of abuse (and it's effects), the facts speak for themselves. People can and do remain in abusive relationships for a variety of reasons. The power imbalance is not one of position (although it can be) it arises out of the psychology of the two individuals. Much like the inherent deference generally present from a pysically weaker individual to a physically stronger individual (just observe any group of males to discern this effect), likewise psychological strengths vary considerably. And any imbalance (which is the reality of being human) can be exploited in an abusive sense, and will have negative consequences on the well-being of both parties, the abuser and the victim.<P>You have excellent verbal skills. So do I. I can argue either side of most positions, and win (much of the time). How can that be? Only one side can be right. The reason being of course is the superior skills in contrast to the other person. If I knowingly "win" an argument (on the wrong side), by pushing the other person into a corner they have not the skills to get out of........what have I done? Some would say I am just enjoying the fruits of my skills...wrong...I have abused the other person. You suggest the victim of abuse is often just too weak to stick up for themselves. You neglect to consider the range of psychological normalcy in our population. There are agressive individuals (like yourself), and passive individuals....we need both kinds, and in fact one could argue we have both kinds (genetically speaking) because both bring psychological profiles necessary for the success of our species. If one of these passive individuals is partnered with an aggressive individual, who in their attempts to get their way (as we all do), takes advantage of this passivity in a way that exceeds our understanding of the healthy psychological needs of BOTH parties, then we have a problem, at the least neglect, often abuse.<P>You seem to set yourself up as a standard, it is not possible to assess your H behaviour (or yours, you may be an abuser yourself) from the info here, but I can say this. None of US are a standard, the standard is in the feild of psychology, and we do have standards. An occassional namecall in anger is not abuse..... a pattern of namecalling with the purpose of effecting a behavioural outcome in another is abuse, whether the victim feels abused or not. Likewise a pattern of negative comments about someone is abuse, whether the self-esteem of the victim is affected or not. There are many more, you really need to do your homework nellie, your ignorance of these issues is um...... well, breathtaking. I will add I once thought like you, having little direct contact (so I thought) with this, and thinking (like most of us do) the abuser was some big ugly horrible person, not the nice guy next door. Not until I started reading, studying, that I came to understand anyone (even you or I) can be an abuser, and simply deny it to ourselves. Like all behaviour there is a continuum, and the mildest form of abuse may indeed be almost all of us, anytime we diminish another human being for our own gain, but we accept that as being part of the human condition, and we get a "pass" .......... but only if we apologize, and clearly make efforts to reduce our practices, and that is where it starts. Those who don't are abusers, maybe married to someone they cannot dominate, but abusers none the less.......and it goes all the way to the other end of the spectrum, where the victim's identity literally disappears and they are completely controlled by the abuser, often living under the most horrible (to us) of circumstances. An abuser (by definition) is incapable of loving someone, the skills, mindset, necessary are mutually incompativle for both behaviours, although the abuser can be quite skillful at using "love" as part of their control regimine.<P>Each of us decides what is acceptable re marriage and what is not. Personally I think having an abusive (in any way) spouse is sufficient psychological, and Christian grounds for divorce. Many choose to put-up with it (sounds like maybe you did), for quid pro quo reasons, or think they can rehabilitate the abuser (rarely successful). As for me, I am like you, figure I am an emotional strong, tough guy, and indeed I am pretty much. The first time our counsellor (who besides being a marriage counsellor) had 20 years experience with angry controlling people (he was a prison psychologist as well), told my wife her relationship with me was that of an abuser, I was shocked. I leapt to her defense, saying no way, I choose to be here, she doesn't beat me up or anything, she is a hard worker, kind to animals etc. etc. etc. But I was also in denial, who me? I am abused...and by a woman? What kind of wimp does that make me? And hey, I have yelled at her too!! Well, to make a long story short, he was right, it took ahile for me to face it, but I was abused, and I had been emotionally injured. She finally understood too, for years she blamed her criticism, her withdrawal of emotional support, her anger, on my actions. And she learned my weak points, and that is where she focused her efforts. Her goal was not to hurt me per se, but to control me, so her life could be what she wanted it to be, what I wanted was not on her radar. If we happened to agree, was great, but if not, then the "monster" came out. She is not a terrible person, many abusers are just into it for power alone, or other dark stuff, she was a garden variety abuser, just doing it for "MY" own good doncha know. In the process she ruined her marriage, cause most of us will eventually try to escape. I even asked the counsellor, well maybe I caused it (and this is where everyone should say JEEZ), maybe by letting her get away with it (but I didn't, I argued alot) I um....let her "bad" side get away with it. He told me no, was nothing I can do, she has a personality disorder, and it is her demon to kill, she chose not too, until her life fell apart. Now she is doing pretty good, the criticism has mostly stopped, her attitude has changed, is kinda interesting. She denied all this at first to counsellor, over and over, even as he pointed out her behaviour (and she acknowleged it). Finally he told her she was one of the angriest people (repressed anger) he had ever counselled, and that it had nothing to do with me (FOO issues). He also observed it was a darn good thing I was the male victim, so there was a semblance of balance of power. Had she been male, would have been a much sadder tale. So I wonder about you nellie, maybe you are abused, and just in denial, it is impossible to tell, that is why it is called denial, and is very common among victims, especially of perpetrator is a "nice" person. That is why you look at patterns of behaviour, it is not whether you feel like a victim that makes you so, it is the actions of the other person (and the perceptions of those close to you as well can be helpful). The ow is also abused, she refuses to admit it to herself, she has almost completely lost her identity, her husband has emotionally neglected her their entire marriage (a commonality in abuse), everything is about him and his needs, she says I AM NOT ABUSED (makes her kinda angry actually, and she is a very kind, sweet person), he never hit me, he works hard, he is emotionally fragile, he he he.......see the pattern? Nothing about her. I did the same, always talked about my wife, rarely me. Making excuses for spouses neglect is one of the red flags of an abused individual.<P>Anyways, you seem kinda hard-headed nellie (not a complaint, is something I respect). But you are way off base, go do your homework first, then see if you feel the same.

Wow, the support has been overwhelming on this subject, as well as, informative. Elan, I also felt Nellie was talking to me as if I was the OW in her husbands decision for an affair. When I read her post to me my heart starting pounding about 100 MPH. I have not had that feeling in almost a year and a half since I left my X. I was so scared of him, he made me shake when I was around him because he has an anger management problem. Nellie asked why I couldn't just leave. I only weigh 115, 5'3" and when a 5'10" 280 lb man is standing in the doorway blocking you, it is impossible to get by. He took my keys on several occasions, once he pulled his car behind mine which was parked in the garage. He never gave me a key to his car. Plus, he was a police man and had guns. I don't think he would have ever killed me, but I was very afraid of him.<P>Probably for the last 7 or so years of our marriage, I had emotionally withdrawn myself and I knew I wanted out, but because of finances and what I knew my kids would go through I pretended to be happy on the outside and I put up with the emotional abuse. He honestly believe sex was love and forced me to have sex when I didn't want to. I just went through the motions with no feelings what so ever. He told me if he didn't get it at least 3 times a week he would go find it elsewhere. About the last 7 or 8 months, I told him to go find sex someone else, but don't come back here. He told me to go to the doctor because I had a sexual problem. I wouldn't let him touch me because I hated him so bad and I slept alone because he worked graveyard shifts.<P>I had the affair just before I moved out and at that point the marriage was already over for me because he refused to go to counseling and I had emotionally withdrawn myself from the marriage. I was not going to give anymore and be hurt and ridiculed by this man. I don't know the real answer to your question if I had the affair because of the emotional abuse from my husband and I'm not trying to justify the affair. All I'm saying is because that man had shattered and destroyed my self worth, I was hurting inside very deeply for a long time. <P>I confided in a male friend that I had known through work for several years. He was there to support me in a time of deep emotional distress and because of the weak state of mind I was in, the affair happened. The affair was the straw that broke the camels back because I knew it was not right and I couldn't understand why I did it afterward. Trust me, I am a strong believer that affairs are bad and I'm not jusifying the affair by any means. The only point I am trying to make to you is that emotional abuse is real and you should educate yourself before speaking.<P>I don't think I have been ugly to you and I didn't deserve the response you gave me. I really wanted to slam you for responding the way you did, but I am too nice of a person. This board is for support, not negatism and I am not depressed by any means. I am a very -- happy go lucky -- person when I am not around that man. And I am strong for leaving the marriage whether you want to believe it or not and I have come a long way since the divorce. There are some things I could say about your situation, but I'm not going there. Let's be positive and help each other out.

Elliott,<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGE HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Well if anything girlfriend, this has made us all talk about something that we've been burying. I don't think that burying the hurt is a way to heal, but dealing with it and understanding OUR part in it is how we can get on with our lives.<P>I know the feeling you are talking about....the pounding of the heart...I felt like that after I came back from dinner. It was like, "How DARE you say that this is all in my head?" -- even though those were NOT the words spoken, it was the underlying tone. I instantly went into DEFENSE mode. I remember *explaining* everything. Explaining why I bought a certain brand of margarine, why I folded the towels a certain way, why the kids didn't behave, why, why why. Then, the post from Nellie. I went into an instant, "I HAVE to explain this to this woman so she understands." What it did do is make me realize that I don't HAVE to do ANYTHING I don't want to do! Now THAT is powerful!<P>I understand why you couldn't leave.<P>I understand why you withdrew emotionally.<P>I understand why you were afraid of him.<P>I understand what it's like to be forced into having sex.<P>I understand what it's like to be hurt and ridiculed.<P>I understand what it's like to have your self-worth shattered and destroyed.<P>But most of all, I DO understand the strength it takes for leaving your marriage.<P>BRAVO! Girl you have done more for me, along with the others in here, that months of counselling did. If there is a place to be humble and thankful...it is here. <P>This is not the thread to hurt others by, but hopefully to educate us all so that we can ultimately trade in the role of victim for that of heroine/hero.<P>I KNOW we are not victims -- anymore -- but perhaps maybe there is someone out there, that doesn't have the courage to post. Maybe that ONE person will be reading our threads and telling themselves "You know! If they can do it, I can too!"<P>Maybe it's someone who is not even abused...but maybe it's their sister, or their brother, friend, or neighbour. Again I thank all of you for sharing something so profoundly hurtful. Your stories must be heard so that other's can break the cycle.<P>I thank you all from the bottom of my heart!<BR>