sing,<P>I am curious - do you think it is possible for a good person to undergo a personality transformation in the absence of illness? If so, how can you ever trust anyone?<P>gsd,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sometimes it is easier for BS to focus on the betrayal and the negative qualities of his/her spouse. It is easier to let go when you believe in your heart that you are better off without the person.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you have hit the nail on the head. <P>Nduli2,<P>I am convinced that the "something special" in my H is still there, somewhere.<P>Jill,<P>My H was sometimes hard to live with, but then, so were my kids occasionally. As I said somewhere else, I would take my H back if he asked.<P>Bioman,<P>Which one is the "real" her? The one you knew for six years, or the alien one?<P>Bramblerose,<P>I am happy for you that you are in recovery.<P>I guess I never felt like I was lost - I was reasonably happy with who I was. I felt like we were quite well suited to each other in most respects. We shared many goals and interests. Our marriage was not idyllic, but we seemed closer to each other than many, if not most, couples we knew. <P>TLC,<P>I don't remember how long you have been married. I take it you are saying you are incompatible - how long did that take to discover? My H and I were compatible for almost 25 years - you'd think that would be long enough to know if you were compatible. <P>db713,<P>I am glad he is working his way out of the fog. My H and I have never had a problem talking about the children, in person anyway. I doubt the OW would be enthusiastic about my H and I being friends. <P>

Nellie:<P>Well, I post now and then when the topic fits. You are right that there are probably only a handful of people in my situation.<P>

There is only one word that comes to my mind when asked to discribe my wife that would not be censored. Evil.

My wife is a wonderful person, actually one of the sweetest people I've ever met. And that's not just my own characterization of her. That word "sweet" is almost invariably the term I have heard other people use to describe her.<P>That's why her actions have been such a shock even to people who have seen this kind of thing happen again and again.<P>Here's an interesting passage from M. Scott Peck's <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/068484723X/qid=998104861/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/102-6463737-1296108" TARGET=_blank>Further Along the Road Less Traveled</A>:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>For most of us, if there is evidence around us that might point to our own sin and imperfection, if that evidence pushes us up against the wall, we usually come to recognize that something is wrong and we make some kind of self-correction. Those who do not I call "people of the lie" because one of their distinguishing characteristics is their ability to lie to themselves, as well as to others, and to insist on being ignorant of their own faults or wrongdoing. Their guiding motive is to feel good about themselves, at all costs, at all times, no matter what evidence there may be that points to their sin or imperfection. Rather than using it to make some kind of self-correction, they will instead--often at great expense of energy--set about trying to exterminate the evidence. They will use all the power at their disposal to impose their wills onto someone else in order to protect their own sick selves. And that is where most of their evil is committed, in that inappropriate extermination, that inappropriate blaming.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sound familiar? Only when my wife stops lying to herself will she again be the person everyone knew. Until then, she has already demonstrated that calumny and fraud are not beyond her.<P>It is amazing what people will do when they are afraid.<P>As for me, I still intend to remain faithful. I believe in the power of God, and I believe in my wife's spirit. I have no doubt that she has what it takes to overcome her inner demons, <I>if</I> she chooses to stop running from herself.<BR>

I think that my position is pretty clear to those that know me. I love my XW dearly, she is a great person...ordinarily. Right now she is obviously very depressed, and blaming the world for her woes, I think. It doesn't matter, however, because she is in her own reality...her version of the truth, to use your words.<P>The truths you refer to...they <B>are subjective</B>, Nellie1, as sad a realization as that is, <B>it is the truth!</B> The universal truths, I believe that you are speaking of, are not truths at all, but <B>values</B>. Even there, they cannot, and certainly do not extend to everyone, at least not in the same way. Everyone has to take their own meaning from <B>everything</B>, even a thing that <B>you</B> feel only has one meaning...yours. Well, most every one else feels that way, too! You represent information to yourself through filters that you have either created, or were created for you...but you filter <B>everything</B> nonetheless. So, truth cannot be universal, and the best that two people can hope for it to be able to see things with the others senses, and sensibility. There need not be agreement all of the time, but to reach into someone else's reality, and be able to see their truth, that is that elusive connection that we all wish we had again. I am not angry at my XW, I miss my friend, lover, and wife, that's all. I do hope that she is able to see this particular truth as I do someday, I just don't see any evidence of her doing that right now, even though she looks/seems worse now than she did ever in our marriage....but, see as <B>true</B> as that seems to be to <B>me</B>, it is not so evidently true to <B>her</B>. That's what keeps us apart. Her truth and my truth are not the same. -Mike<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited August 18, 2001).]

Hey Nellie:<P>I'm glad to see you posting again! I know your feelings about things not getting better and in the past year+ <BR>I've agreed with you many times. <P>My divorce was final this past Monday. I've tried really hard not to think about it! It's just too damn sad.<P>I will always love my WS (as I believe he will me)! He gave me two beautiful children. I was his first! I chose him to spend the rest of my life with. So, yes, he WAS a good person! <P>I just think he got depressed and didn't know how to cope with that. Had he been on antidepressants, the affair would have never happened (his words, not mine)....<P><BR>

I do have to say that I hate him at this point also. He had TOTALLY fuc#$ed up the lives of my children and myself for his selfish ways! It might be different if the OW was all that, but that is not the case! When my girls are older and know the truth, I really will feel sorry for their father! Until then, I will try to protect the girls from the ugliness of what their father has become and the DEVIL that their father has turned to!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>TLC,<BR>I don't remember how long you have been married. I take it you are saying you are incompatible - how long did that take to discover? My H and I were compatible for almost 25 years - you'd think that would be long enough to know if you were compatible.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I met my VSTBXH in '92 right before my dad died. We married in '93 and had kids in '95 and '97 ... obviously it wasn't ALL fighting ... but it wasn't so much discovering we were incompatible as discovering how much abuse I could take and how much was too much. We share a lot of moral, political, and child rearing beliefs. I just don't share the idea that I must submit/obey or pay the penalty with my mental health.<BR>

Nellie,<P>My ex was not a decent person. He was usually mad about something. Plus he was mean a lot of the time.<P>BUT...I believed in being married only once and tried to stick it out. Some people thought I was a fool for marrying him. I tried to prove to them and myself that I could make my marriage work no matter what. If he hadn't had an affair and left, I know in my heart that I would still be with him.<P>If he came to me now (and he did once not too long ago) and wanted to come home, I would tell him no. (and I did). I don't want to go back to my life before. He's still drinking all the time and doing drugs. There isn't anything different about him. I can't do that to myself or my kids. He damaged me too much emotionally and physically. <P>Mitzi

You might think this is corny, but I actually TRIED LIKE HELL to hate my EX H. But putting all the cheatting aside, he was and is a wonderfull man. He's kind, carring, never been in jail, doesn't drink, doesn't do drugs, never raised his hand to me, never even called me a *****, always held down a job and took excelent care of me. We were and are STILL best friends. I know him better than anyone on this plannet and him me. We had to stop talking because we just couldn't get over each other, but now we're talking again and he wants to try very hard to put our lives back together. It's been almost a year since he left. People always asked me why I took him back? For all those reasons. I just couldn't take the hurt of him cheating. He's a VERY good looking man and was always being hit on by other women. He just couldn't say no. It came to the point that he was putting MY life in danger by doing this and since he wasn't going to stop, I needed to get away from him. So the answer to your question is, YES, YES, YES. If he ever gets help for his problem, the next woman that gets him is going to get a beautiful man inside and out.

There isn't an easy answer to this question. As someone else wrote, "decent" definitely is a subjective assessment. My strong opinion is that very few people in the world deliberately act to hurt others. In fact, I'd say that probably less than 1% of the population are "evil" - or for purposes of this discussion, deliberately act to hurt others for their own gain, with no sense of personal remorse or guilt.<P>I do think, however, that MANY people rationalize to extremes, especially when in an affair. Everyone needs to be able to look at themselves in the mirror every morning, and avoid razor blade to wrists at every opportunity. I think that if many of these waywards could be objective about what they're doing, it would destroy them. Denial is a defense mechanism. Sometimes it's a temporary "fog" that keeps them mostly deluded during the affair, and sometimes it's lack of character that keeps them from ever looking inside to evaluate or change their behavior. In my opinion, both are equally prevalent in these situations. <P>I don't think Harley emphasizes enough the reasonable likelihood (again, I say 50%) that someone that's having an affair, and chooses deliberately to continue it without any remorse, suffers from major character defects that probably always existed and are unlikely to change. If the problem exists within the wayward, there is nothing that the betrayed can do to change the situation. I'll put myself out on a limb here, and suggest that during marriage to this kind of person, there likely was very little emotional intimacy since the person has major trouble communicating their needs in a positive manner.<P>I think Harley suggests a two year wait because it's difficult to discriminate between those "lost in love" during the heat of the affair, and those that are truly "lost" and don't have the character to ever look at themselves and make changes. Two years gives the person time to show which is most likely. Frankly, I think it will be a cold day in **** before my husband ever apologizes for his behavior and we're now three years into his affair. I don't think it's that he's not "decent", but more likely he's taking the easiest path for him, the one that allows him to avoid personal suffering for what he has done. He's not strong enough to deal with himself. In a way, he is to be pitied. I'm very glad to be rid of him as he could easily have become a lifetime project if he came back when my arms were still open (and with my far greater awareness as a result of having lived through this). And I am just the type to make that kind of commitment. Thank G-d I'm out of it.<P>Character becomes obvious only during the critical times in life, which is probably why so many of us went so long without seeing this in our spouses. It's always easy to do what you want. It takes personal strength and conviction to take a course of action that isn't what "feels good", but which your mind and conscience tells you is the right course. I think almost everyone that visits this site does exactly that.<P>One final point. There is a difference between taking the difficult route in order to achieve an objective (character)and sacrificing a life for someone that doesn't deserve it (martyrdom). Betrayeds can be in as much denial as waywards. That's why I like the two year rule.

GnomedePlume,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It is amazing what people will do when they are afraid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think this is very true.<P>Distressed,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't think Harley emphasizes enough the reasonable likelihood (again, I say 50%) that someone that's having an affair, and chooses deliberately to continue it without any<BR>remorse, suffers from major character defects that probably always existed and are unlikely to change. If the problem exists within the wayward, there is nothing that the betrayed can do to change the situation. I'll put myself out on a limb here, and suggest that during marriage to this kind of person, there likely was very little emotional intimacy since the person has major trouble communicating their needs in a positive manner.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that there are a number of other explanations besides long-standing character defects. Aside from the fact that I don't think you could hide those for a quarter of a century, one explanation that comes to mind is the feeling on the part of the WS that he has dug himself into a hole so deep he can't climb out. Sometimes I get the feeling that my H is punishing himself. <P>In my case, I think that our marriage had at least a normal amount of emotional intimacy. I think that what he had problems with was his feelings of failure. One one occasion when we were discussing finances, he said that he was afraid that he had screwed up his life so badly that it could never be fixed. <P><BR>

Forsaken,<P>I am sorry to hear that. <P>Waiting_for_her,<P>This is probably just a matter of semantics, but I do not believe that there is such a thing as "universal truths." When I talk about truth, I would limit it to potentially observable fact - eg. the truth of a statement such as "I was not exceeding the speed limit," is something that, even if it was not observed, potentially could have been. <P>Everything else I would call beliefs.

Trapped Mom,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Had he been on antidepressants, the affair would have never happened (his words, not mine)....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think this is the reason that, while the Harley methods may well improve the quality of relationships, I think "emotional needs" have little to do with affairs. <P>Hunny_Bear,<P>My H also was a very good man. I think that there is a strong possibility that the guilt will eventually destroy him. <P>Mitzi,<P>I think it all comes back to depression - there is a strong relationship between addictions of any kind and depression, as I am sure you know. Unfortunately, the addictions, whether to drink, drugs, or the OW, just make the problems 100x worse. <P>

xxx

<small>[ June 02, 2004, 02:31 AM: Message edited by: skye ]</small>

I don't know if depression can be considered the cause of a affair. It may contribute to the persons need for happiness but in my situation it wasn't the cause.<P>I know my EX is in MLC. He shows ALL the signs. I also know he has suffered from varying degrees of depression for many years. I had tried to get him to go to a doctor but he wouldn't. <P>After the first affair and during recovery he finally went and was given prozac. He was a new man, one I hadn't seen in years. It didn't stop affair number 2 though. He was still searching for something. All the prozac did was to make him less sensitive to the hurt he was causing us all which is very common for people who take prozac. You get kind of a whatever feeling. <P>Perhaps someday when he starts coming out of MLC and his new marriage starts getting old he will realize just what he has done and suffer from it. I hope he does, if he never does it really shows that he definately has some seriouse character flaws.<P>My secret wish is for his new wife to dump him for someone else. She has done it before and I hope it happens! I want him to feel what I felt. Nasty? Maybe but payback is a ***** or so they say.<P>Jill

I might be a little late to the party but here's my take.<P>My wife is a wonderful person. If we weren't married I would gladly call her my friend and probably have quite a crush on her. She is beautiful, funny and smart and if we don't get back together someone else will be just as lucky as I have been to call her their wife.<P>But(you knew this was coming) she grew up with a great family, they just didn't talk about major issues. She grew up that way and continued that in our marriage. She'll tell you that she tried to save our marriage, and maybe to her way of dealing with things she did. But, she's a runner. She was the best student in HS, college and grad school, and everyone thought she was going places. But when things weren't easy for her, rather than accept it as a challenge, she stopped trying. I think she though that because her parents have been married over 30 years, and they just seemed to click that all marriages should be just like that. She's even said before that marriage and love should just be natuaral and not require work. Things are bad between us right now, and I accept my 50%, but rather than try to work them out, which is very hard, she decided instead to leave. Because everything came easy to her and this isn't easy.<P>Right now I feel very sorry for her and the issues she's dealing with. She's running from them as well. But she's a magnificent person and I love her deeply.<BR>

skye,<P>Nice to hear from you again.<P>It is easier to see "signs" in retrospect, but I wonder if signs might have been present in anyone if you looked for them. If you heard that someone whom you had known well when younger had an affair at midlife, perhaps you would be able to think of signs, now that you know the outcome.<P>No matter what signs may have been there about other things, even in retrospect I saw ABSOLUTELY no sign that would have indicated that my H would have nearly abandoned his children like has. That is the part that I find most devastating. Even now, every once in awhile it looks like he is about to cry. Unfortunately, although I can think of a couple of things to look out for, I really have no confidence that I could advise my children, or be able to pick out someone who would remain faithful. <P>Jill,<P>Some psychiatrists believe that MLC is just depression that happens to occur at midlife.<P>I thought you had mentioned at one time that you thought the Prozac had stopped working around the time the second affair began. Unfortunately, from what I have read it seems that treatment of depression is far from an exact science.<P>Personally, I think I would rather have my H dump the OW than the other way around.

sad_but_true,<P>I think FOO issues are often a major factor - which is one reason that divorce is so horrible. No matter what, my kids have seen their father largely abandon them, and that is not something from which I think they can ever fully recover, even if he were to come back tomorrow. If he stays with the OW permanently, it scares me to even think about the effect on our children. <P>I think my H has always been scared to disturb those who love him - I think on some level he equates anger with abandonment. It wasn't really obvious that he was a conflict avoider because he was far from that at work and with other people with whom he dealt - but I guess he didn't care if they loved him or not.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>I think FOO issues are often a major factor</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK, I have to plead ignorance here. What is/are FOO issues?<P>