I must admit that I've been a bit scattershot in my reading here lately, but there's one thing I've noticed that I'd like to comment on. A lot of people seem to be torn between trying to avoid committing lovebusters and trying to take a stand for what is right.<P>M. Scott Peck's definition of love is "the will to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth". In other words, if you love someone, you want them to grow and become a better person, and you will take risks in order to facilitate that growth.<P>Harley's definition of a lovebuster is anything that works against someone else's <I>feelings</I> of love.<P>I believe that there are times when demonstrating love requires the commission of a lovebuster. In other words, there are times when we are called upon to do something that will cause our spouses to like us less (even to hate us), but which we must do <I>for their own good</I>, because we <I>care</I> about them.<P>We are not called upon to <I>fix</I> our spouses, because we <I>cannot</I> solve their problems for them. However, I believe it <I>is</I> our responsibility to "sound the alarm".<P>And in so doing, it may turn out in the end that we are removing units from our spouses' "love banks" only to purchase long-term certificates of deposit. In the long run, should the fog ever disperse and the value of our actions be recognized, we will be ahead in the accounting.<P>That, at least, is what <I>I</I> hope for. I have been choosing my actions toward my wife not on the basis of how I think she will respond <I>now</I>, but on how I believe she may see them in the future. Today, anything I do, good or bad, will just cause her to hate me more. But tomorrow perhaps she will see that I acted with love and integrity even in the midst of extreme provocation. And it is that love and integrity which will need to be the foundation of any future relationship between us.<BR>

GDP, <P>I agree wholeheartedly with you to a point. There is a fine line between true LB'ing and doing what is right. Each of us have to choose what is best for us and what is best for our spouses in the circumstances that we are in. I have said and done some things that I thought were for the good of both of us and these things sometimes blew up in my face. Over reaction on my part? Too emotional on my part? Maybe!! IMHO - I want to say and do what is right so that my future with my husband will remain intact, but how do we know what we do in the present will not come back to bite us in the butt in the end?? (no pun intended) LOL<BR>Tina

GDP,<P>i disagree. one takes a stand for what is right for his/her ownself, not for anyone else. One takes a stand by saying "I respectfully disagree. I don't think/feel that is true, or correct, " but one does not say "I don't think you are right, i don't think that you feel that way." the LB here is that it is a disrespectful judgement.<P>but you are currently discussing in abstract concepts, please give concrete examples of how a spouse is sounding the alarm by taking a stand, and creating a love buster.<P>GDP, what you may be discounting is the fact that some people have learned to manipulate others by using projection, particularly those that have less powers to think/stand up for themselves. My X has those, she tried to be very manipulative. still does, she believes in the concept that if one talks enough about a subject, from her feelings, it will become the truth because other people will begin believing it. once a teacher to kids, all people will be kids to her teaching.<P>My concrete example. She bought a replacement grand voyager, high end, etc. well, to her it represents me forcing her to buy a certain type of car, with certain type of wheels, etc. because she wants to do everything together, but with her rules, meaning, no POJA, her way. If there is POJA, and she can't stand up to disagree, then it is me forcing her.<P>Well, if the car has any mechanical failure of any kind, it is a piece of junk. She was complaining about the car two years ago, before the INIL speech, when the door didn't shut properly. so i said, what about a new one, say a Yukon or a Suburban. I have always liked them for their practicality, their size and power. She tore me apart saying that the only reason i wanted one is to impress/keep up with my rich friends. (Not true, but her feelings, and it is a disrespectful judgement since she didn't even ask me!) Now, in reality her statement was a projection of her feelings, so she should have said, "I don't want one because I don't believe in the status symbol." or something to that effect, and that would not be a love buster, but her true feelings, standing up for what she feels.<P>However, since then, a tie rod has broken, and now the water pump tension pulley spring has broken, all random type of mechanical failures for the age of the vehicle, and she tried to convince me it was a piece of junk. I don't respond because I know better, besides, not my problem. So last weekend 9 yo d tells me that X NOW wants a Yukon/Suburban for its towing ability. Evidently, because her reasoning was hers, and she assumed mine, hers is better, therefore correct, but the outcome is still the same. Is the perception still the same? it is for me, but not for her.<P>So now, does telling her the truth that she is two faced, (which is really not true, she just speaks emotions, no logic, just the emotion du jour/moment) which i have talked to her about, and she agrees, she should think before she speak, but she can't. not her personality type, not her upbringing.<P>so how will telling her what she is doing? educating her be taking a stand to help her? she does not feel broken? I feel she is broken, but that is my opinion, so now we are at a stalemate of opinions, no POJA on opinions. BTW, she does this type of reaction all the time, partly out of BPD, which is a learned reaction to prevent the emptiness of low self esteem from occurring. <BR>She can only fix that. What does one do or say when someone says, "Your success, your ability to do so many things threatens me!" X said that to me. How can i save her from herself? can't. . . she has to do that. I mentioned counseling. . . . she was an emotional wreck, she agreed, i said its for her so that she doesn't have an emotional breakdown and the kids need her, so she goes, and comes back and used everything the counselor said against me. My counselor disagrees with your counselor, mine is right FOR ME!"<P>I lost out there, though i wasn't allowed to defend myself to the counselor, so she could have said anything, that i emotionally beat her by disagreeing. I dragged her to my counselor, i listened, had an angry/frustrated chippy outburst at the end, my fault, but my counselor told me there was nothing there, get a lawyer.<P>so the answer? she grew up with a very low self esteemed father, who realized this who tried hard to build his children's self esteem by telling her "your behavior is fine" whether it was or not. He so feared rejection by his kids, since my MIL was rejecting him to control him, that she grew up very narcisstic with a very bad role model, and i couldn't see this, since she was an education major, and intellectual told me all the right stuff before we married. In other words, we agreed intellectually about raising kids, and family values, but when the time came emotionally, she didn't agree with it, couldn't, it was against her anipulative, controlling upbringing examples.<P>FOO examples of behavior are much more powerful than the intellectual activities of book learning.<P>so you can stand up for yourself and your opinion without LB, yes, is my opinion and am entitled to my opinion about my self or another situation. However, to love a spouse, you can't be in charge to take a stand to say she should/haveto/must do this or that. That wreaks of control or lack of POJA, because one assumes without being giving the right by the spouse, to be the ultimate decision maker.<P>POJA boils down to boundaries, what you will or won't do, as a boundaries. if they two boundaries are mutually exclusive, the decision is a NO GO. With POJA, there is RESPECT for both opinions, meaning each person is correct for themselves, assuming they are honest and not manipulative, not using projection.<P>Negotiations can move boundaries, shift them to be acceptable to both parties now in exchange for something else acceptable, but there still has to be POJA.<P>somehow i get the sneaking suspicion you are having this feeling of power over your X to be able to fix her if she just listened to you (i had that along time ago, since i was right and she agreed most of the time, so my rightness kept building up to where i thought i knew everything that was right for us, and my POJA skills went down the tubes, and so did my empathetic listening. the F completely disappeared from me, and I was only left with my T)<P>ding, end of my chess move, your turn<P>WIFTT<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited August 18, 2001).]

Would you put confronting W about an EA/PA in this category? I suspect now, and will probably know for sure sometime soon. I asked question point blank few weeks ago, got direct and definite 'No', and i believed it. now, i'm not so sure, buit don't know for sure one way or the other.<P>Part of me thinks, our relationship aside, if she is doing what i think, she is making a big mistake on an R that won't go anywhere, where she'll be used and hurt, and may cost her job, and given all that i should say something, which will be major LB.<P>Other part says let her live her life, make her mistakes, and learn from them. If she's hurt and rejected by this guy, she may turn back to me.<P>Speak or remain silent?

ANB3,<P>how are you going to format the question?<P>Your intuition and perception that she is going nowhere in a work related relationship is probably correct, but not in her eyes. therefore, your only response is via third party: <P>i know {fill in their name} who did just what you are doing, and the outcome was a disaster, maybe you should talk with him/her.<P>or "that's not the way I would go about a promotion," but only when asked.<P>so "one teaches when a student appears ready to be taught." or some proverb like that which means look to answer questions, not be a buttinsky and solve other people's problems for them when they didn't ask. volunteer to help if needed, and answer questions, but don't solve it for them.<P>now, the EA/PA should be posing problems at home, so those are the problems you need to address, not the symptom, the symptom is the EA/PA. therefore to speak up and say the affair is the problem, is not the best answer (take it from someone who has done that, plus others, the fog causes lies, which are designed to self protect, which is ok, for the first question, but continue to gather evidence about the interference in your life and relationship, and deal with that.<P>just my hands off, independent, unaudited, nickels' worth of an opinion.<P>WIFTTy<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>i disagree. one takes a stand for what is right for his/her ownself, not for anyone else. One takes a stand by saying "I respectfully disagree. I don't think/feel that is true, or correct, " but one does not say "I don't think you are right, i don't think that you feel that way." the LB here is that it is a disrespectful judgement. <P>but you are currently discussing in abstract concepts, please give concrete examples of how a spouse is sounding the alarm by taking a stand, and creating a love buster.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>WIFTTy, I don't see anything to disagree with in your post, and it is clear that I <I>should</I> have given concrete examples. Here's the kind of thing I'm talking about:<P>1. Pointing out the effect that a spouse's behavior is having on the kids.<BR>2. An "intervention" for alcoholism.<BR>3. Suggesting that your spouse has all the classic symptoms of depression and so might benefit from seeking help.<P>As you suggest, all of these are examples of disrespectful judgements, or at least are likely to be perceived that way. But remember: respect for one's <I>actions</I> must be <I>earned</I>. Respect for one's feelings does <I>not</I> need to be earned, and saying "I don't think that you feel that way" is not only disrespectful, it is belittling.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>somehow i get the sneaking suspicion you are having this feeling of power over your X to be able to fix her if she just listened to you (i had that along time ago, since i was right and she agreed most of the time, so my rightness kept building up to where i thought i knew everything that was right for us, and my POJA skills went down the tubes, and so did my empathetic listening. the F completely disappeared from me, and I was only left with my T)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What I believe is that I hold a lamp that can illuminate the path my wife needs to take in order to achieve mental health. I do not claim to know everything that lies on that path, and I do not believe I can "fix" my wife or in any way compel her to take that path. I am very, very much aware that only she herself can take that path. But I believe that <I>any</I> friend with such a lamp has the <I>responsibility</I> to turn that lamp <I>on</I>, or he/she has no right to be called friend.<P>WIFTTy, when my wife left me, my empathic listening skills had greatly <I>improved</I>. When my wife spoke, I listened and carefully considered what she had to say. Moreover, I <I>respected</I> what she had to say. I said very little to her in return, because I had determined not to "correct" her or criticize her without first receiving her permission, and she repeatedly refused to let me speak.<P>One of her complaints against me was that everything she did was subject to my approval or disapproval. This complaint is quite revealing, because while I cannot deny the truth behind her accusation, I believe that <I>that's the way a healthy relationship works</I>. Respect does not mean agreement, and my wife apparently never understood this. Leaving aside the fact that the vast majority of my wife's choices met with my <I>approval</I> rather than my <I>dis</I>approval, I think the important thing is how I <I>handled</I> my disapproval when it happened. If my wife wanted to do something that I disapproved of, I let her know what I thought (or, occasionally, how I felt), and then, when she decided to do it anyway, I supported her all the way, giving her help as requested and generally trying to show her that I respected her right to make her own decisions.<P>That is how my parents taught me to love. For example, I have spoken elsewhere of my interest in perhaps getting a motorcycle. My parents do not approve, and they have been pretty clear about this. But, as I do the research and move in that direction, they listen to me talk about it, they ask interested questions, and they let me know that they are happy to see me happy.<P>When my wife does something actually <I>self-destructive</I> though, not only do I disapprove, but I <I>refuse to support</I> her. I know that I cannot stop her from making her own choices, but I <I>will not help her to destroy herself</I>.<P>If that's a lovebuster, all I can say is: "tough". So be it.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ANB3:<BR><B>Would you put confronting W about an EA/PA in this category? I suspect now, and will probably know for sure sometime soon. I asked question point blank few weeks ago, got direct and definite 'No', and i believed it. now, i'm not so sure, buit don't know for sure one way or the other.<P>Part of me thinks, our relationship aside, if she is doing what i think, she is making a big mistake on an R that won't go anywhere, where she'll be used and hurt, and may cost her job, and given all that i should say something, which will be major LB.<P>Other part says let her live her life, make her mistakes, and learn from them. If she's hurt and rejected by this guy, she may turn back to me.<P>Speak or remain silent?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Personally, I <I>would</I> put confronting a spouse about an affair in this category. Love would compel me to speak <I>and</I> would direct <I>how</I> I confronted her.<P>As for the "other part" of you, the part that says you need to let her live her life and make her own mistakes, that's nothing more nor less than the voice of reality. You need to accept it.<P>But that does not mean you should remain silent.<BR>

GDP,<P>I agree with what you wrote/typed. thank you for the concrete examples, and that is the way that my parents also taught me to love.<P>so thank you for the discussion point, really, its part of the <I> freedom of speech </I> point of view, which i agree with, but which my X also disagreed with.<P>However, low self esteem people, and people who learned to react instead of adventure, usually blame others for the reaction, which is actually correct. however, you can figure out how well you will live life if you only react and never adventure out.<P>its like my XFIL told me once, when i told him I wouldn't do it for him, but i can teach him how to do it, he said:<P><I> no thank you, i want someone to blame if something goes wrong! </I><P>i should have seen the red flag being waved in my face. <P>anyway, good abstract discussion and good concrete examples.<P>WIFTTy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> M. Scott Peck's definition of love is "the will to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth". In other words, if you love someone, you want them to grow and become a better person, and you will take risks in order to facilitate that growth.<P>Harley's definition of a love buster is anything that works against someone else's feelings of love.<P>I believe that there are times when demonstrating love requires the commission of a love buster. In other words, there are times when we are called upon to do something that will cause our spouses to like us less (even to hate us), but which we must do for their own good, because we care about them. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>You know, I have been pondering this one for a long time. I believe in mature love that there will be times that require that one spouse act in the best interests of the other spouse and it will be perceived as a love buster. GDP, your examples are excellent. Let me add one more personal example: intervening for a spouse who is violent or abusive. <P>In my heart of hearts I am positive that I am nurturing my H's spiritual and personal growth to put him in a position to HAVE TO deal with his angry behaviors. I hope he will even some day address the deep-seated roots of his anger and why it is there. Yet I am equally positive that it is being perceived as a love buster by him, because he does not feel love deposits. It does not raise his love bank balance to have to face something that he has been running from for 20+ years! In fact, I am quite certain that at this point he hates me for leaving and not allowing him to continue to ignore it. Why couldn't I have just continued with the status quo? Let me say that again, although it is for his own good that he face his demons and grow in this area of his life, I am VERY SURE that the result has been that he hates me for it.<P>I'm learning that the balance to this, though, is loving ONE'S SELF for the purpose of nurturing one's own growth. Part of the deal is indeed committing the LB for the greater good of your spouse's growth as a person, and yet, an equal portion of the deal has GOT to be loving yourself enough to stand up for yourself, doing what is in your own best interests, and taking risks to facilitate your own growth. In other words, it is all well and good to be noble and intervene, but it is VITALLY important to have at least an equal portion of caring for ourselves while we do the intervention. BTW, in case you are wondering, I have done an AWFUL LOT of risking and caring for my spouse, and not as much risking and caring for me, and now, I am paying the price. <P> <P>CJ<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I have avoided talking about the kids with H. He sees it as a manipulation tactic...last time he left he told me not to bring them into it.<P>So it is a big LB for him. I am really concerned for our children, so the last couple of times, I have told him that they are missing him, I feel he needs to know that, because he only sees them when they are happy because he is there. I told him yesterday he was shutting himself off from them. He said "Yes, I know." <P>I haven't told him about their restless sleep, their tears, their feeling that he hates them, the sleep-walking by OS, the swearing, the not eating, the anger, the fear or anything else they have had to experience over the last seven weeks. I have not told him of my exhaustion dealing with all of this on my own (BIG LB).<P>So now I know very definetely to tell him all of the details is a LB. Should I or not, for the welfare of the kids and his relationship with them, or just deal with it myself?