Hello folks.<BR>I have been using the Marriage builders site for about a year now, but things are still a continuous uphill struggle with my H. He repeatedly falls into numerous Love Busting behaviours. We have "broken up" at least 4 times in the 8 years we've been together! He always waits & waits, all the asking, discussion, and reason in the world is useless in getting the affection & respect I need. Finally I get to a point where he is thousands of units negative with my "bank", and decide I must move on. I get all excited...I look forward to the people I'll meet, steel myself & buck up the courage it will take to financially support myself, all that. Then he gets on the ball, and starts to try! THEN he starts to use the agreements, and paying attention to my needs.<BR> This last time, he even has encouraged me to date other people, just so I can see what's out there. I placed a personal online, and got a couple of responses I was really enthusiastic about... only to find love notes, and overwhelming affection & courtesy. I don't know if I should continue to try to move on... or will he just backslide till I'm totally emotionally wrung out again? I don't think anyone can tell me what to do... I know I will have to decide for myself... but if someone on this list has had similar experiences, I'd love to know hwat came of it, one way or the other.<BR>Wishing all the best!<BR>Z-Cat

I realize that you are asking a serious question but your last sentence made me almost laugh. Yes, there are some of us who have been and still are in your boat. Two weeks ago my XW wanted to move back home with me so bad she couldn't stand it. Last week she was wearing the her engagement ring from our marriage. Tommorow she marries the guy that caused our divorce.<P>Most of the time when people fluctuate like this it's when they don't see the 'real' side of it. My XW and I would bounce back and forth as long as we both knew that we had each other to fall back on. But once that net is gone or is in serious question, then things turn real fast. The sudden feelings of panic, of unconditional love, of remorse, or the willingness to please come rushing forward. Problem is it should be this way all the time.<P>I have attended two weddings in the past week. At both of them I heard a very good expression. "Marriage is not 50 - 50. It takes 100% from both sides."<P>Plan A until you can not and then look into a modified Plan B. Keep posting. Hard to help if we don't here much from you.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<p>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited August 20, 2001).]

i am sure you are looking for encouragement and advise. all I have to offer is: I CAN RELATE, I CAN RELATE, I CAN RELATE. You can read my posts to understand more. <P>If you are in a marriage relationship... dating should not be an option. Read "Boundaries in Marriage" by Henry Claude and John Townsend. <P>I am sorry for your pain. I've been there done that...<BR>

If you are in a marriage relationship... dating should not be an option. Read "Boundaries in Marriage" by Henry Claude and John Townsend. <BR>I am sorry for your pain. I've been there done that<P>THAT is another bone of contention between us, being legally married. I call him my husband, for the sake of convenience, but we have lived to gether for 8 years, and he has always refused to make a legal commitment. He's still technically married to a woman he married & lived with for 6 months, before they separated, that was at least 11-13 years ago. I BELEIVE, though he denies it... that he won't just get the paperwork done, as a means to have an excuse to forego the final commitment step. It's one of the things that keep that Clash song "Should I Stay or Should I Go Now?" running through my head repeatedly, for the past 4 years of the 8 we've been together...grrr....<BR>Z-Cat

There is another book called "Boundaries" and "Safe People" by the same authors. <P>Your comment: he has always refused to make a legal commitment. <P>Can also be interpretted as: you allowed him to refuse to make a legal committment. <P>For me... my husband cheated on me several times and I was always blaming him for the misery in my life. Through these books I have learned my responsibility in all this. <BR>I have allowed him to treat me that way because I allow the pattern/cycle to continue. I have filed for divorce. I don't want to be a victim anymore. I won't allow him the chance to cheat on me again - so I am walking away. He is sorry as usual and will never do it again, as usual. It reminds me of what you say: Then he gets on the ball, and starts to try! But this time I am not buying it. <P>

Zcat,<BR>I know exactly what you're talking about. I've been married 14 years, but only once have we ever separated. I moved out for a month last dec/jan. H was devastated. He wanted me back (which was going to happen anyway, since my housing was temporary). He actually agreed to counselling... something I thought he'd never agree to. I requested specific changes in counselling, and to my surprise, he honored two of my requests. There were a number of things that I saw as improvements earlier this year. Recognizing that change comes in small steps, I was hopeful he could travel the distance. <P>In the meantime, I found Patricia Evan's site at <A HREF="http://www.verbalabuse.com" TARGET=_blank>www.verbalabuse.com</A> and read her first book (best $11 I've spent this year!). Unfortunately, the descriptions fit my H like a glove. The book goes on to say that abusers rarely change. I find this very sad. I'd like to think my H could find peace and happiness in this lifetime. Unless he seeks professional help, I doubt he ever will. <P>I've been visiting mb for more than a year now. I was in bad shape when I found this site and realized that I was no picnic myself. I knew I had work to do on myself, and that's what I've done for a year now. According to Dobson, if one partner changes, the other partner has no choice to but change too. I could be blind, but I don't see much change in my H. He could very well be material for a whole new book! <P>What caught my attention in your post was your comment about steeling yourself for making a break. That's precisely where I am now. I've made a decision to leave this marriage. Now I need to make my actions match my words (H hasn't heard the words yet, but I suspect he'll want to change my mind). It's very scary, and I know I'll feel guilty for hurting him, I'll want to believe that things will be better when he makes promises. It will be hard to stick with my decision. I caught a snippet of Dr. Phil on Oprah recently... he said the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. I know that my H's interest is in preserving the status quo. I've told him for 4 years now that I find the status quo unacceptable. I've tried everything I know to make things better. And now, I am contributing to the status quo by staying. The only way I know to make it end is for me to leave. <P>Zcat, the information here at mb is really great. For marriages with two participants, it's a recipe for success. My H is a non-participant, and that's where mb falls short of giving me tools that I need. The additional support I need is now at the verbal abuse site. I hope your relationship doesn't fit that description. Your post doesn't really indicate to me one way or the other. Several things you mentioned struck a chord with me, though. I would encourage you to be informed on the subject... and hope that it doesn't apply!

Dear Lonesome. Your intuition did indeed steer you correctly- he does have a history of severe abuse. However he is one of the golden few that has really progressed away from that type of beahaviour pattern. In this thread I mention reasons I want to leave, but one of the reasons I'm confused and want to STAY, is because of the tremendous ammount of internally shattering work he did to break out of being an abuser. Well over a year ago, almost 2 now, his violence had escalated to a point where he did finally put me in the hospital. He stayed at the house, until I could go back to work, then left and got into councelling. I let him come home after a 2 month separation, and I was WITH him, held him when he would wake up in the wee hours, sobbing over repressed memories of badly he was abused as a youngster, this Man whom I'd never seen cry. The mind of an abuser is usually a morass of denial & rationalization & denial... to throw down his illusions broke him in peices but he DID IT. <BR> The thing is, is that over time, I had fallen into the black hole of being an abuser as well. It was an ugly cycle, and I made some huge attitude adjustments myself.<BR> <BR> It sounds like if we made it through a crisis like that, the present state of affairs should be a peice of cake, but it's not. So we don't fight like we used to, we may sometimes argue, or debate with heat, but we don't FIGHT. So he has learned a bit of the skill of empathy, instead of objectifying me, that's great, few abusers get that into their heads at all. He stopped the therapy altogether when we both changed our jobs, becuase we couldn't afford it any more... I think he should have continued. I would like for us to go together. It was MY time with a therapist that escalated the culmination of his abusive behaviour...he lost his ****, because he couldn't control me anymore... ::bitter grin::<P>Now that so much healing has taken place, it's cleared the air enough, that new levels have been uncovered. I WANT affection, I WANT to be cherished, I WANT to be a priority in his life- not still a last thing on his list. Not being severely abused anymore, is not enough. Invalidation- is still a subtle abuse. Passive/Agressive behaviour is still a subtle abuse, emotional neglect is still a form of subtle abuse... He peeled the onion of his dysfunctions till he cried, but seemed to have decided he did "enough" and left these onion skins un-peeled, if you know what I mean.<P>SO- now that I have gone into so much of it- back to my POINT (yeah, I had one! ::snort & chuckle: , which is that I don't know if this is one of his "breaking points" where he really does make a change and keeps it. That bit you relayed about how the best way to judge how a person will be in the future is to look at their history- and he DOES have a history of pulling himself up by the boot-straps, and making a tremendous change. I am afraid to leave, because I can't help but wonder if he neglected my needs, because he had the bigger hurdles to overcome, and is now ready to take the next step. At the same time, I'm kindof sick & tired of waiting for him to be more loving & affectionate, up till recently, it's been "Tomorrow & tomorrow & tomorrow". It's depressing to have to beg for every hug I get. <BR> Beleive it or not- he not only encouraged me to "date", but HELPED me write the personal ad I put online for a few days, suggested which picture to put with it, etc. I just felt TOO WEIRD about it, and took it down, 4 days after I created it... but not before I got some really interesting replies. And all during this time, started doing things like rubbing my feet after a hard day at work, leaving love notes around the house, and waking me up to snuggles in the morning. It's got me utterly confused. <BR> He has done a complete turn around from his former game- til recently it was "Stay! Stay! I love you!" while in action he utterly neglected me, now it's "Go! Go! You deserve to be happy!" while he dotes on me in loving ways he hasn't since our first year. <P>I'm so spun around...<BR>Z-cat

I don't know what to say about your H helping you place a dating ad. If he's read Dobson's message about opening the cage door and letting the spouse free, perhaps the message got a bit scrambled enroute to his brain??? <P>In any case, my H has never hurt me physically, and I don't believe that he ever will. I was never much good in my karate classes, and that was a long time ago. I do know about emotional abuse though. It may be subtle, but it's insidious. It's difficult to describe and difficult to defend against. The effects are just as real as physical bruising. I too have seen signs in my H that promised improvement. I recognize that change comes in small steps. I also have a nagging voice that tells me he's placating me enough to keep me around so that he can preserve as much of the status quo as possible. I hate to give up on a 14-year marriage, give up on him. I believe that the abuse will continue, though, for as long as I stay. Perhaps he will change to the degree that I could share the rest of my life with him... but I don't think that will happen while we're under the same roof. <P>Visit <A HREF="http://www.drirene.com" TARGET=_blank>www.drirene.com</A> and <A HREF="http://www.verbalabuse.com" TARGET=_blank>www.verbalabuse.com</A> to get some useful information. Read books by Patricia Evans. You will learn effective ways to view your H's behavior and change the way you react. And please please please promise me that you'll consider emotional abuse to be just as serious as physical abuse. The absence of bruises doesn't make emotional abuse any less insidious.

I have just found this web site today and found your message(s) very interesting. I am also at that decision point of do I stay or go. There has been no physical abuse in my case. For me that would be easy to answer. <P>My partner only treats me the way I want when the threat of leaving is serious. I have left him before for 6 months. At that time our children were under 3 year of age. He was great during that time, it was like courtship all over again. He took care of things around my place (he didn't do this when we were together), he spent more time with the kids, he would even take them out on his own to give me a break. We decided to give it another change, bought a new house and moved in. That was about a 1.5 years ago. Today we are not exactly where we started but not far from it. We did couples counselling for some time and that was helpful, but when we stopped we both went back to our previous patterns. <P>I've been reading alot of information on the web about relationships, personality disorders, self help etc. It all gets confusing when you get the emotions involved with the logic presented. My head says there is no hope of salvaging a meaningful relationship. My heart says what about my family. When I read things like the "Love Bank" concept it makes some sense. But it will only work if both people are willing and able. <P>I think the first step is to determine what you are willing and able to give and accept...this is the stage I am at. I have decided to leave many times... this time I need to commit to that outcome or to staying. Being in the middle is the worst place to be.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Determined:<BR><B> When I read things like the "Love Bank" concept it makes some sense. But it will only work if both people are willing and able. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not true. Read about Plan A. Also read about the "The Three States" Intimacy, Conflict, and Withdrawl. How one can be in one and one in another, or both in the bottom and one can pull themselves up and the other will hopefully follow. It can be done, it just takes more dedication and work.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.