I just picked up a whole stack of letters from my attorney's office that are letters from my husband's attorney. They make all kinds of false accusations saying that I am an abusive mother and that I won't cooperate with parenting time. Neither are true. The only thing I have done that I am also acccused of is not communicate with my husband. This is driving him crazy as every one of the six letters complains about it and the last one he said that he is going to go for full custody if I don't start talking to him. One of the letters also states that my husband lawyer is recommending family counseling or mediation regarding the parenting time issue. Being the allegations that have been made and being that my son is a 13 year old and anti-mom, do you think the family counseling could work in my favor for getting hubby back or work against me in divorce court???? Presently, my husband has no intentions of getting back together and had previously refused marriage counseling. Tell me what you think. To see my story, see "need advice about divorce" on this same board, dated Aug. 19th. Thanks. Bye.<p>[This message has been edited by Katie Carlson (edited August 20, 2001).]

Katie....pay close attention here. <B>All of the stuff from the lawyer is predicated on one simple concept: Him getting what he wants, and maximizing your grief over it all.</B> You needn't ruminate about it much at all. He knows that you have an advantage in the eyes/ears of the court with respect to custody, it is an uphill climb for him. Look, his situation does him no favors in this, he works out of town, and you are in the home, he is not. There is more, but <B>Katie</B>, please...take a breath. You are letting this thing take you up in a whirlwind, <B>don't go there! I am trying to help you, please drop this for a while, and get your bearings!</B><P>You are letting this thing control you, and you will regret that in short order! Now, I am not going to post to you again until you answer my questions. I understand if you feel the need to insist on continuing as you have, I've been there, too...but, I am going to try one more time: The answer is Plan A...its not this pi$$ing contest that you are in now. -Mike

Mike, I agree with what you are saying, but I still don't understand how I can reasonably implement Plan A with the current circumstances. Also, I did a lot of Plan A type stuff. I make sure that I looked my best whenever I saw him (still do) and that the house is clean whenever he came. I gave him chocolates, supported and agreed with him, smiled and was nice to him, cooked him dinner a few times and all I got was the cold shoulder, he wouldn't even look me in the eye, refused to let me touch him and acted angry about my acts of kindness. The harder I tried the further I pushed him away. So where did I go wrong???? Also, you said that I needed to answer your questions, there have been so many posts, I'm not sure what questions. Would you mind asking them again (sorry). You are right though, I need to take a breather but at the same time, things keep happening and I feel I need to do something about it before it gets worse. Oh and Mike, you were giving some really good reasons of my custody rights and you said and there is more but then stopped. What else is more? Thanks again. <p>[This message has been edited by Katie Carlson (edited August 20, 2001).]

The main point of Plan A is to let him know that it is safe for him to return. Its not supposed to make him want to. The 'problem' with your implementation is that you had expectations of him in return. He is not going to come back because of an act that you do...he will return if he decides to. I'm not saying that you should stop doing things, quite the contrary. Its kind of lke holding your breath until you turn blue, only he is not going to do anything.<P>It is important that you put the idea of any sort of reciprocation out of your mind. That's not the goal. The goal is to quit LBing, and show him that you are different in those areas that you have been LBing in. Talk is its cheapest now. You might just as well tell it to a fence post. That is why I asked you to complete a project, take an interest in his business, make the home comfortable to him, and all of that. That is what speaks the loudest to him right now. There will be no instant solution here, you will be tested in terms of patience, agape love, committment, in short, every aspect of your character will be attacked, tested, tried, and worn paper thin.<P>This is the point where the BS begins to lose steam, Katie. Your Giver is running on fumes, and yet...you LBed in your Plan A...its effectiveness is dubious, at best. You Taker is calling for a pretty harsh stance, which you equate to Plan B, but you are acting out of a meta-state...resentment about being hurt. It seems natural to you, it flows...usually, I'd say that was enough, but this time, it is not what you need to do. Build that Plan A foundation. You needn't do it from a position of weakness, but keep the LBing to a minimum, preferably cut it out entirely.<P>I have this suspicion that you justify your LBing, based on him. That is a common mistake. One of the most common problems in marriage for women is a lack of meaningful communication. For men, its the lack of a steady sex life. The irony of that is that women usually want the emotional connection prior to sex, and men take sex as the bond that provides for that. The job of a husband is to provide for that need for conversation with content. Wives are responsible for patiently teaching their husbands the difference. In the middle, there is room for both, but we often choose instead to 'make a point'. We forget that in marriage we make a gift to each other of life, and love. Neither are allowed to withhold their gifts arbitrarily for personal gain. In the same breath, neither are allowed to ignore their duty in helping the other love more perfectly. This stuff is easy when you are both working at it, but that doesn;t happen often enough.<P>The 'more' is known to you, not me...but there usually have to be pretty severe circumstances for a man to be granted sole custody of the children, and the burden of proof is at least twice his: prove you unfit, prove him fit. Not likely to happen, unless you get out of hand in the process. Much of this posturing (started by the numerous inflammatory letters, and actions you recently got.) is designed to keep you off balance, and angry...in hopes that you will provide them some ammo in what is essentially no case at this point. Your son is not likey to lie outright about it when the time comes (most of the time it does not, this seems like a bluff to me.), and his word is not likely to be final, in any event. One thing that I am not clear on...has he actually filed yet? Something that you have to keep in mind, here...there is no need for a 'custody' arrangement...you are not even legally separated to my knowledge...he still lives at home, doesn't he? If so, you cannot realistically expect to limit him in any way at all, unless he lets you. It is still his house, too, and his kids, I might add. Simply because he is leaving you....does not mean anything to the court at all at this point.<P>There are things, Katie...in your marriage...that your husband feels are so lacking that he'd rather be alone than suffer another day. You likely share a similar sentiment. He feels that he is justified, he is right, and you are ...unrealistic, selfish, frigid...whatever. You have a similar program...if he'd just X, then everything would be fine. Okay, so you are at an impasse....what to do? How hard would it be to just be who he wants you to be for a while? I think that the word going through your mind now is cave...well, yes...cave, then. Give him what he wants, including the space. Have you read 'Love Must Be Tough' by Dobson? There are other perspectives that you can take in this, and you will feel better, and get better results for your efforts. You should know what your LBs are by now, and you should want to do something about them...for your sake, not necessarily his. That is more Plan A philosophy...it looks like it is all for him, but it is really all for you, and learning how to love...admitting that it is a choice...finding out that it is not an easy one, and having the strenth, and conviction to do it in the face of total rejection without being weak, or needy about it. (NO EXPECTATIONS!) I think that you do not allow yourself to be wronged, and let it go at that. You probably want something in return. That is natural, but the narrow gate in that is not to get into a protracted power struggle over something that is done, and better done with.<P>As far as the OW...like I said, it doesn't matter. The analogy about the D being another unfinished project...I'm sure that you would not like it that way, either. Why don't you figure out what your desired outcome is, and tell me that in great detail. -Mike<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited August 21, 2001).]

Mike,<BR>This plan A and Plan B stuff and your philosophy is beginning to make sense to me now. Now as far as the final outcome, obviously I want to reconcile. What specific details did you want to know? <BR>Katie

How will you know that you have reconciled? Set the scene for me...details are important in this. How will you feel then? -Mike

This is a very good question and to be honest I haven't thought much about it. I've only thought about how much I've been missing him. If he were to come home, I would feel relieved but relief in itself is not going to make our marriage work. Something would have to change. I would have to take a much different perspective on things, like not getting mad so easily and being more patient. I don't know how I would deal with some of his irresponsible behavior that he has. I also would want to feel that I was the most important person in his life, I always felt like I came last to everything else in his life and in many respects, I did. I felt that I didn't get enough attention from him. He felt that I was disinterested in him because I didn't like relations as often as he did. He felt it was because I didn't I love him. I thought that he was overreacting. I felt that I was always trying to save for our son's education, vacation and our future and he was always throwing it away our money all the time on stupid stuff. He felt that I was too concerned about money yet after he spent it all expected it to be there. He has some self destructive tendencies and patterns, he's in one of those self destructive fits right now. He felt that I was mad all of the time and I felt he was too controlling, ignored me too much and was not willing to comprimise which all made me angry. So, these are all problems and a part of our character traits but I have to admit I am not sure on how to deal with them. I would want my reconcilliation with my husband to be free of these problems so we could enjoy the fun things we like to do together. Despite these differences, we both have the same political views, religious views and we both like the same activities, friends, music, restaurants, food and share a lot of the same goals and dreams except for the motorcycle chassis but that's a whole other story. One of our favorite things to do together is jet ski. We really have a good time. We would definetely need more marriage counseling with the right counselor.There is one more component to this that some people says it makes a difference and some people says it doesn't and that is that he drinks too much. Does that need to be addressed or is that LBing? So what do you think, does it sound bleak???

Not bleak at all...this is classic 'missed it by that much' junk. Okay, all of the things that you say are all compounded from a few minor differences, most of it is reactionary...I'm not getting what I want, so neither are you. The most miserable one at the end wins, or loses...or something. You let your opinion of one thing dominate your part of the interaction...you must let it go. The things that you hold tightly bind you, and limit you. You get forced into a reactionary position by your pride, and hurt. That only leads to more hurt.<P>Okay, so the sex thing is out in the open now, I am sorry to make you say it, I know that it concerns you, and you probably think that it should be of little consewuence...like the 'stupid motorcycle chassis thing'. Well, Katie, these are likely the two BIGGEST LBs for him. You did not take what is important to him, and make it important to you. How interested do you expect him to be in what is important to you? You must be at least that interested in the chassis thing, and sex, as well. Sex is one of the 5 basic needs that most men have, and probably the number one reason for their complaints. Financial support is one for women, and he is not helping you there, much...is he? Hey, you're married to a dreamer...Peter Pan might be appropos....but he is your Peter Pan, do not expect any big changes there for some time. Why not budget money for his use 'as he sees fit'. Tell him it can't be much now, but that you will work on it...you can almost always squeeze a little more out of groceries by being smart, and working a little more. I am not assuming this...I live it. I can make a nutritious, edible dinner for 6 for under $10, and I can get to about $5 before my kids complain! Personally, I will eat Ramen for a week solid if it gets me a part for my telescope that I am building...absolutely no money coming from that project, but I've also gotten about half of the materials for free. You could BOTH work it. I spent $25, and a lot of time, and effort building my first telescope, and my XW could not have been less interested in it. That hurt me, and I knew that my marriage was in trouble then. Same with all of my hobbies...I tried to get her into them, asked her to do crafts with me, etc...nothing. All she wanted to do is go drinking and complaining with her friends, and mine, too! A lot of what you say about him, she said/says about me...let me tell you a little secret...behind most successful men there is a woman....behind a lot of failures is an XW with about that same mindset. Sure, there are plenty of deadbeats, and most of us may not amount to much, but would you rather he not do those things, and get his a$$ print in that gawd-awful lounger, with the beer, and the attitude? So, you are the responsible one...big deal. You can teach him a better behavior, but you cannot beat it into him. Yes, you are married to a mule...but <B>you know that</B>, quit rediscovering it already.<P>Okay, so the things that would be different...he would be more responsible with the money...more understanding about your libido, and more attentive to your ENs....are you comfortable with those three? He would like you to provide more sex, take an interest in his hobbies, and not seem so controlling...does that seem accurate? The sex thing, you are at odds about...you want the current status quo to suffice, he is clearly telling you that it does not. Could your lack of desire have anything at all to do with your not getting your ENs met? This is the second hint, Katie. Please take the patience and time to let him know that you need to <B>feel</B> a connection first. This connection is gained through talk, and sharing of emotions, which is difficult for a man. I heard a woman once say that women sleep with men to get them to talk to them, and men talk to women to get them to sleep with them. Sometimes, people are just too clever for their own good! Its like you have him right where he wants you!<P>The money thing is difficult, too. Work it out <B>with</B> him, not in spite of him. Make it really clear that you are trying to find money in there for his use, but have him see that things are tight...NO LBing there, it will be disastrous!<P>So, when I ask you how you will know that you are reconciled now...what is your answer? you must be able to see it clearly...its your desired outcome...your goal. Start at the end, work your way back to now. See? Whatever was missed, let's hear it...once it is defined, there are some more questions to ask, but for now, let's continue to flesh it out. We are predicting the future in reverse. -Mike

Yes, I think the sex thing did have to do with the fact that my EN were not met. I remember being angry at him for not giving me enough attention, affection and romance. He was always busy. Occassionaly he would make a candlelight dinner for me - very nice and he liked to make me breakfast in bed - also very nice. But his time for me was always on his terms. I spent all of my time waiting, waiting and waiting for him to spend time with me. But if I went and did other thiings or wasn't home for him when he arrived home, he would get very irritated with me. He always said that I was free to do whatever I wanted by that was lipservice and not the truth. He is very possessive, disgreetly possessive. In some ways, I liked it because it showed that he cared but in others I felt it was a one way street. As far as reconciliation. I would like us to spend more time doing things "together." Not that we can't ever do anything apart but I want to work as a team as a unit. I also want to make decisions together. One of the problems we had is I would rarely ever make a decision without him, but he would on the other hand constantly make decisions without discussing with me. This is when I got angry. Then I got accused of the "you're always mad at me." So I would want our relationship to work more on us making decisions "together." And if something really bothered him or me, we don't do it at all until we come to a decision. I also would want a relationship where we could comprimise. I always felt that he wouldn't comprimise with me on anything, maybe small things but not big things. For example, I know this probably sounds silly but he wouldn't allow me to park the car in the garage, use the shed for storing things. And things like bicycles had to be kept in the house. He took over all the storage spaces with "his stuff" and wouldn't allow me to organize it or use it. On top of it, he had a disasterous mess. He's one of those junk collector, trade horse type of people. Sometimes it was great because he would make a good deal and get something for nothing but it got bad because we have more junk laying around than we know what to do with. I also felt that with the money thing, I was always the one to make the sacrifice. I would save for two years to buy a lamp from birthday money and christmas money. I didn't mind making the sacrifice because I was a stay at home mom but his spending was out of control. He would constantly rack up bills buying things and then I was always trying to fix and figure how to pay it. I would just about get in the clear so we could move ahead and he would rack it all back up again. He really does have a spending problem and cannot manage money at all - disasterous. I know that if decides to come back, I'm going to have to play major Mrs. Fix it for a couple years for both bills and credit. So when I think of reconciliation with Peter Pan in NeverNeverland, I think of a lot of the fun things we could do but we're probably going to be broke. How do I solve this or should I even try?<BR>Thanks

Have you read about the Policy of Joint Agreement? He doesn't want to hear the bad news that he will <B>have to wait</B> for things. Delayed gratification is hard to accept. As far as the connection between ENs being met, and sex, I have lived that. He does the obvious things, but they don't work so well without the genuine feeling behind them. You anger kills that off. Children, and in-laws, and even friends complicate that. You blame him, but he is not only not entirely responsible. He is a victim, too. Most people have a lot of their own programs started when I say this, but...Katie, your body belongs to him, and his to you. You are using sex to gain something, now how 'magical' and sensitive is that? If you thought he was treating you 'as a sex object', you would be angry, no? So, why then do you give him permission to do so by leading with your example? My XW's last effort in that department was pretty good at first. She had read an analogy about a couple that had that problem...the man would say, want to go sailing? The woman would say yes, if she truly felt like making love, but at those times where she wasn't so inspired, she'd say, why don't we take out the speed boat instead? She, she still provided his need for sex, but was honest that it was not foremost on his mind. Eventually, he began to refuse the speed boat rides sometimes, and got more sailing time in. Teri went into dry dock after a week, however, but that's just her, I hope.<P>He can become more responsible, but that is not your job to point that out...its a LB to him. You have got to take more genuine interest in the things that are important to him. You mentioned that there are many things that you both enjoy, but that is not enough. Things that are important to him, and unimportant, even annoying to you. Those are what I am referring to, not the jet-ski, although you are correct...the more the merrier. Right now, it is about quality, not quantity.<P>You would be wise to find the other perspectives in this...Many jobs, quitting on a whim? Perhaps he is looking for something meaningful to him....and can handle drastic sudden change. There are good sides to this that your hurt pride, and ego are blind to. The real effort is in changing yourself enough that your marriage is a workable thing. Right now, he will not change much, so that doubles the burden to you.<P>You have much of your desired outcome fleshed out...keep putting details in there, make it <B>very real</B>, include smells...what does your happy home smell like to you? What colors are the walls? The more real you make it, the better your chances are of creating it. You are feeding your subconscious a recipe here, include as much information as you can. -Mike<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited August 21, 2001).]

Mike, you got a point about the job situation. Maybe he was just trying to move up in his career. The point that I was trying to make is that he has a pattern of leaving situations and running away from his problems when he becomes frustrated. Let me give you some explicit details: He accepted the new travel job on a Friday. 2 days later on Sunday he pulled me close, hugged me and said, “Be true to me when I’m away.” Just so you know, I never gave him any reason to feel that way – he was just concerned because he was going to be away a lot. But to me, that showed that he cared. This gets really personal. Later that day we made love. The next day (Monday) we had a fight over his junk. See, with the new job, it meant putting the house up for sale so we had to clean up and fix up fast. I guess I LB. His rationale was that if I wanted him to get rid of any of his stuff that I must not truly love him. At the time, I felt he was being irrational and selfish. My thoughts were, you put a house up for sale – you clean up and spruce up. I told him that I had a lot of things that needed to go as well. My logic didn’t go over too well because 3 days later, on Thursday, he moved out. After moving out, he started acting very strangely; he even had a distorted look to his face. He was cold, cruel and very arrogant. He immediately bought a new car (understand this man never believed in driving anything newer than 10 years old), got his ears pierced and grew a gotee (I’m not sure how to spell it). <P>Deep down I know this man loves me, he just doesn’t believe that he can make me happy, he has a low self- esteem and does not believe that our marriage can work. He told me that it was hard for him to leave. And that is why he has built a wall and won’t look me in the eye or allow me to touch him. <P>There are some other dilemmas that I don’t know how to deal with. I know that you have said to make the house a place that he will want to return. I am doing that but being his job situation, he has to live an hour south of where we live so even if we get back together, we would still have to move. <P>Another major problem that I don’t know how to overcome is about 6 months before we split up; we started sleeping in separate beds. He elected to sleep in our unfinished family room in the basement because he said that I kept him up at night because of my sleep disorder. He also said that I bothered him waking him because of his loud snoring problem. About 3 months before he left, I began to encourage him to sleep in our bed – he did sometimes but he frequently declined to. Then after he moved out, he went around telling people that I made him sleep in the basement. So if this is how he perceives this, how do I get him to feel better about this situation? <P>So now he has built up a wall as high as the sky and sent his lawyer out to get me. <P><BR>

happy - having, showing, or causing great joy.<BR>content - happy with one's lot; satisfied.<P>That's Webster's take in the situation. When you say that he 'thinks that he can't make you happy', then you and he are correct, and you agree there. He can't. You, however can reach a point where you are both content in your marriage.<P>The actual structure that you live in now is irrelevant. The house is not the thing, Katie...the <B>home</B> is the thing. Whether it is where you are now, or ten years from now does not matter. It is a place with you, the loving, and loved wife and mother, the kids, and your husband co-existing in harmony (as much as is realistically possible) to everyone's mutual benefit. I am referring to the dreaded <B>domestic duties</B> here, I can't be much more blunt than to say, make sure it looks good, dishes washed, laundry kept up, etc. Keep his throne supplied...not the one in the bathroom, dear...the one in the living room! Yes, he is hellbent on making a point with you now...it has little to do with the housework, but this is a need of men...domestic care. It would do you little good to weld up motorcycle chasses, and trim the baseboards if there were no clean socks...the LB would be all he saw...understand? You must still go about the process of 'painting' your positive desired outcome. You're back 'in the mud', here.<P>BTW, screw the lawyer...he's a lawyer...part of his job is to mess with your mind, leave it by the roadside, and move on to something you can do something about, like having his a$$ fired ASAP.<P>You seem to think that you have 'special circumstances', and that is why this thing, or the other does not apply. While you are telling people to go to hell, tell that little red b!tc# to go back there, too. Hey, Katie...how much do you want to win, here? Let's continue with the program, then. Answer this question...how will the way he speaks to you be different when you are reconciled? How will the way that you speak to him be different then? -Mike