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Here's the question...What's appropriate and what's not?<P>Not necessarily right now, but for future reference. Assuming that Amanda and I can get through this without hating each other, what would be an acceptable "friendship"? When I say get through this I don't mean we end up together. I mean we move past the hurt and pain we have caused each other.<P>Movie?<BR>Dinner?<BR>Birthday Parties?<BR>Special Events?<BR>Phone Conversations?<BR>Kid's Events?<BR>Milestones of our own? <--- separately, after divorce. IE: Going back to school, buying new house, etc.<P><BR>This is new to me. I don't even like the thought. For 8 1/2 years I have been able to do things with Amanda at will. Now I must worry about it being appropriate. Opinions?<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<p>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited August 24, 2001).]
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Hi Paul, I haven't posted to you before, but I read your other thread. You are doing a very fine job at what must be a really difficult situation...hang in there!<P>I'm going to sound harsh here, and I'm really sorry for that, but I can see where this might all end up if you let it, due to family experience. <P>Let's start with the positives. I think you can invite her to kids birthday parties, extended (your)family weddings and funerals, (and you can go to her extended family weddings and funerals, too, if invited) special events related to the kids, phone conversations, but with absolutely NO talk of your feelings towards her (and if she tells you anything of the kind, you MUST tell her that is now inappropriate since she is married to another man), kids events as above.<P>May I just point out that she is now another man's wife, so certain things are definetely not appropriate...movies and dinner top the list, and sexual liasons that you have until recently been engaged. I actually think that was rather cruel of her to turn you into the OM. Bet you've asked yourself why...well, the truth is because she could. That's what my h said when he was taking me to bed, then going to the OW. Because he COULD. So this time I made it clear that he can't!!!<P>I don't think it's wise to ask her to celebrate milestones of your previous life as a married couple, because, cruel as it sounds, they don't matter now. She IS married to someone else, and if you do allow these things, she sounds like she will accept them, but that's not giving you any closure.<P>My h's uncle was divorced by his wife about 20 years ago. She married the well-to-do OM, after taking the uncle for all he was worth. I met this uncle 10 years after the divorce and he was still mooning over his X. Why? Because she kept a hold on him, in many and various ways. Even up to the last couple of years...she managed to get him to sell his house, move to another state, start again and all because of a job with her business, and because she KNEW she could string him along, despite lots of family advice.<P>C'mon, Paul, is that how YOU want it to be in 20 years?<P>Please, for your own sake, let go, and you know the old saying about that, don't you?<P>Nina
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Nina: What was harsh about that? Direct to the point. And I see your points. They were kind of on the lines I was thinking. The not talking of our feelings being the hardest part.<P>Also I need to go back and clarify the start of this post.<BR>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<p>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited August 24, 2001).]
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Hi Paul, me again... sick of me yet? ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/wink.gif) <P>I made a mistake with my ex-H and I hope you can learn from it. <P>I thought we could be kinda like we were before we divorced... and I called him about mostly kid things pretty often (about once a week) for a month or so after I'd left... and there were times we said we missed each other (which we did) and even one time mentioned that movie, "That Old Feeling" where a couple get back together years later, at their daughter's wedding...<P>...and then he stopped answering the phone if he knew it was me... and I was confused.<P>Finally, to his credit (and I mean that sincerely since he is a true conflict avoider), he said, "I can't talk to you like this. It gives me hope that we can get back together. It isn't fair to me."<P>Coulda knocked me over with a feather. He was right, of course.<P>I had moved on, and was on track to marry another man (which, as you now know, I did) and he did not move on (although, as you also know, he did have his women)... <P>I would suspect that Amanda isn't purposely doing this to hurt you, but rather to keep you on a back burner because she's always (and will always) love(d) you, and she knows that her marriage was wrong and will probably break up before the ink dries on the marriage certificate.<P>You, however, must guard your heart and let her make her own mistakes.<P>Listen to Nina (Great response, Nina!)... she's right on the money with her answer about what to do and what not to do...<P>Take care.
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Well, thank you for the support for my comments. I nearly didn't post because I don't like to offend anyone! Nyneve, that was high praise coming from you!!! I have read lots of your posts, and I always think YOU give such good advice!<P>The uncle I talked about up there wrote to us the other day...obviously knows nothing about our situation. I love that guy, he is so sweet, and I know when he finds out, who the bulk of support will go to...so does my WS, that's why he isn't telling anyone!!!<P>The emotions....I did that yesterday, told him I loved him....I never wanted to do that, at this time, but I couldn't help it, I just wanted to give him a reminder, and I needed to hear myself say it. But that was so selfish of me, don't you think? <B>I</B> wanted and<B>I</B> needed...and here I am supposed to be Plan A'ing!!! So now I'm gonna get his picture and say it out loud to that. It's safer, and it's not a LB, and I won't feel so bad....I'll concentrate on my Uri Geller impersonation, and Mr Spock, and attempt a mind meld. Well, you never know!!! ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif) <P>Had a better day today, can't figure it out...I feel almost happy!!!<P>So glad I could help a little.<P>Nina<P><BR>
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Ah Nina, when I read about you taking his pic out to tell him you love him, I got a lump in my throat. I'm sorry you can't safely tell him right now to his face... it's so hard to understand how THAT can be a LB, isn't it???<P>Thank you for the compliments too (Gawd, we're a mutual admiration society, huh? ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif) )...<P>Have a lovely weekend...<P>...and I really hope you can take your H's face in your hands and tell him you love him -- SOON!!!
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EEEEWWWW....Mushy gushy women! ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif) <P>This board has lots to be admired. I read both comments and will respond more later.<p>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited August 24, 2001).]
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Paul, I am assuming from I read Amanda is remarried although I didn't read it in your post. Oftentimes divorce is like death. The person is here one moment and gone the next and if you live in a big city or separate cities, you may never see that person again-death or like it! On the other hand, you have kids so that does change some things. I think Nina was pretty much right on. Movies and dinner-if she's remarried her new husband will love that one although I have seen ex's remarried and all hang around together-actually only one example, but I'm sure it does happen. Anything regarding the kids is great. Phone conversations about the kids and not much else except how are you is fine and about the kids expected. Kids generally celebrate birthdays with each parent. Funerals-depends I suppose on how close she was to your family, BUT, if a child's grandmother for example dies, she very well may want to go, not only out of love for her former mother-in-law, but because it obviously impacts the kids. Birthday or Christmas cards to her-ok I think. Nothing mushy, just a general card. She is the mother of your children(card should be to new husband also I think). Milestones-I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean to celebrate when the two of you bought your first home, I don't think so. Do married couples even celebrate this-maybe some do. You mean if one of you gets a new home and you have a housewarming-the kids are there so maybe, but if you remarry, take her feelings into consideration. Does your (future) wife want to share that moment with your former spouse? Who knows! I guess you play it by ear, nothing intimate and see how things go. Thanks for the other info. Lee (probably not help to you here-just gut feelings based on not knowing your relationship now) Except for dinner and movies, you can always extend an invitation, again, especially if it involves the kids. Sorry so long. Thought I was done.
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Non mushy guy here...<P>No, No, No, No, No, Yes, No.<P>Kid stuff only. I think I mentioned that in my previous post. ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif) <P>Paul---you have a couple choices here. You can wait for Amanda to come around. If you were going to do that, I think that divorcing her might not have been the best strategy. But if you want to wait for her, you MUST be in Plan B. And you don't want to do anything to interfere in her new marriage.<P>I would suggest that you Plan B her---but with the intent of moving on with your life. You need to mourn your loss (and you haven't gotten to that yet). And then go on with your life.<P>[[[[[Paul]]]]]<P>(That's a manly guy hug---not one of those mushy-squishy woman hugs... ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif) )
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Paul,<P>BOUNDARIES!!! YOU are equally bad as Amanda - you are still trying to maintain the triangle!!! (BIG hand slap!)<P>I know you are hurting and this is HARD, HARD to accept. Like K, I also told you in the other post to Plan B her and maintain contact only about the kids. Also, you don't need to be going to your kids' events together. She needs to go with her new H or alone and you need to go alone. You and Amanda are no longer a couple!!!! Doesn't mean you have to be mean or unkind or uncivil - just maintain the appropriate boundaries.<P>Sheryl is right - this marriage most likely won't last any time at all. However, YOU should not be an interactive reason it doesn't last. Leave it alone and leave Amanda alone. If she has made the mistake we all think she has, it will become apparent to her without any help from you. As a matter of fact, if you stay away, it might become more readily apparent to her even sooner!!<P>Regardless of how the marriage goes, hasn't K pointed out so most important things for you to think about? Amanda does not value commitment nor marriage very much - her ACTIONS show how shallow she is in this regard. Is this REALLY the kind of person you want to be with long-term???<P>Have you considered that FEAR may be driving BOTH of your actions????? Fear of being alone???? Are you so afraid of being alone that you will maintain this triangle to have "something" over "nothing"?? I am in no way trying to hurt you, Paul, but you are heading for BIG, BIG trouble here. Your heartaches are NOT going to get better if you stay on the present course - they are going to get even worse, because you will compromise yourself in the long run.<P>Give it all a rest. Try to just NOT think about Amanda for 15 minutes. If you can do it, try another 15 minutes. Use some distraction techniques - get something else in your head - anything but this!<P>You WILL survive this latest setback, Paul. We are all here pulling for you!!! Open your Bible and put your troubles in God's hands for a while and take a breather.....<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Roll Me Away:<BR><B>Have you considered that FEAR may be driving BOTH of your actions????? Fear of being alone???? <I>Are you so afraid of being alone</I> ...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes. Unfortunatly yes. I'm trying hard though really.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Give it all a rest. Try to just NOT think about Amanda for 15 minutes. If you can do it, try another 15 minutes. Use some distraction techniques - get something else in your head - anything but this!<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have tried actually. Sometimes I do fine, sometimes I carry on hour lng conversations with her when she isn't even here. I've often wondered if I'm losing my mind. I think I would have by now if not for my kids. They are my anchor.<P>I really am trying.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<P>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited August 26, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited August 26, 2001).]
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Hi Paul,<P>how are you doing today?<P>This response is entirely from my own experience, and from what I've learned here reading what everyone else does, says, and experiences!!!<P>My ex-h and I do talk about the children, all the time. But only about the children. Sometimes he will tell me stuff about his work, the hours he's still putting in, etc, but that's IT. He doesn't ask me about my work, what I'm doing, where I'm going, nothing, zip, zero. And I tell him nothing!!<P>For my sanity, it's best this way. We had conversations in the past that would leave me reeling. Did he mean this, or did he mean that? Why did he say that, does it mean what I think it could mean? Do you get the picture. It used to send me insane.<P>For my self preservation, I had to stop it. No matter how interested I was in what he was doing, no matter how much I wanted to ask questions, it would all just leave me feeling flat, and alone. So I stopped it. And you must too.<P>Now, as far as my girls go, we do the birthday thing together. It was my eldest d's bday recently and we started the day off with a barbecue breakfast. She wanted to invite her daddy. I told her she could ring him and invite him. He was quite thrilled to be invited to that. Then we took 8 of her little friends 10 pin bowling. He even paid for half. We had a great time, and we drove to and from the bowling alley in his car. To me, by doing this, I'm showing my children that even tho Mummy and Daddy are no longer together, they can still stand to be in the same room, can still have a chat and even on special occasions like birthdays have a little bit of fun...... It's so important to me me that my girls never have to choose betw. me or their father. He didn't treat me nice in the end, but I can't fault him where the girls are concerned.<P>My 2c worth. <P>You must look after you, and you must move on with your life. If you are happy sitting and waiting for her, because you believe with all your heart that that is what you must do, then do it. But if you're not happy with sitting and waiting, take action.<P>I'm not saying that my way is the best way, or the only way, but it is the way that works for me. Anything more hurts too much. I have the feeling it might be the same for you.<P>take care my friend,<BR>and here's a big girly squishy mushy hug for you!!!<P>{{{{{{{Paul}}}}}}}}}<P>hugs to you<P>Jo<P>ps sorry I didn't mean to write a book here!!<P>PPS DINNER AND/OR MOVIES, NO WAY!!<BR>You will be left feeling horrible, absolutely wretched, when you go home alone and she goes back to him. Don't ever do it to yourself. Have a coffee instead with her, not dinner or movies. Bad bad move.......
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Paul,<P>Hope things are better for you today. I haver thought of you everyday, although I haven't had any time to get to the computer since last Friday.<P>I really feel for you. Your hurt just oozes out of your posts. It made me think of mine all over again. All I can say is this:<P>I remember in the beginning of my exH's affair - how I would obsess in great detail over every aspect of everything related to his affair. I dropped 27 pounds in real short order 'cause I couldn't sleep, I couldn't think about anything but his affair. You are sorta so\tarting over again, in one sense. You have to deal with the shock of her marriage to the OM, on the heels of your divorce. Gosh, I know this dredges up alot for you, especially since there seems to still be so much caring between the two of you. In a way, it has bropught all the obsessing back to the forefront, I think.<P>Why are you spending one second of time worrying about what your future relationship with Amanda will be like? No one can predict the future, and it is even more unpredictable in this situation.<P>I can relate to how hard it is to "turn it off". For hours, days, weeks and months, I let my obsession go on and on. The only thing that finally helped me was to TRY to divert my attention elsewhere. Even if you fake it, you might end up with 5 minutes of real diversion. Go to a movie, out to eat lunch with some male co-workers, get to the healthclub or engage in a sport you like...whatever. You have to force yourself sometimes, and it is time for you to force yourself out to do something besdies obsess about Amanda. These are some of the things I did, and over time, they really did help me.<P>You have been traumatized all over again. A double-whammy, so to speak. It is a set-back in your road to PERSONAL recovery. Your thoughts, ebnergies and efforts need to be forcused in the direction of PERSONAL recovery, right now. Keep trying, my friend! Our prayers are NEVER wasted - God just puts them to His own use, which is not always our first choice. If you need to vent and blow steam, come here and do so. If you get afraid of being alone, come here and voice those fears. I know we have all felt and some do still feel those fears. That is a why we can help each other!<P>Take care, Desiree<BR> <P><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Roll Me Away:<BR> If you get afraid of being alone, come here and voice those fears.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Desiree, That seems to be becoming painfully obvious. ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/frown.gif) I kind of always pictured myself as strong willed and for the most part my emotions in check. I've been told because I keep them in check is probably one of the reasons things like this hit me so hard.<P>I tend to think things like this would hit anyone hard.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
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Hey Paul,<P>Sooooooo.... how goes the nightly sightings of Amanda when she brings the kids??<P>Is she "flirting" or "weepy" or anything that makes you draw closer to her?<P>I have been trying to figure out why your story "gets to" me, and I think I may have figured a bit of it out. <P>One of my fav quotes (and I don't know who said it) is:<P>We hate most in others what we hate most in ourselves.<P>I see a bit of my ex in you, and a bit of me. And it's kinda the best and worst of both.<P>As I said on your earlier thread (I think, I'm old and losing track! ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/wink.gif) ) David felt that I was dangling out a carrot despite my involvement with my now-H. I wasn't trying to on purpose, but I can see where he thought that. It's hard to put 20 years to a final rest, you know? I HAD to go through a grieving process, and because I had someone else in my life so soon after filing for divorce, it made it much more difficult. (Along with totally not fair to my current H.)<P>At the beginning of the divorce process, I still harbored some "love feelings" that got in the way for me... in that, I did not see the truth of the matter -- my (then)H was a serial cheater who abused me at least mentally, if not physically and emotionally. I did NOT want to admit that!! I came here, and began doing what I do best -- writing my feelings. One by one, women (esp.) came out of the woodwork to say that they too had been abused in some capacity (as are all people who have been cheated on, IMHO). I began to realize the truth of my past marriage, which was that I fell in love with a man who had severe emotional problems and although he did love me in his own way, it was not a safe, nurturing, mature kind of love. <P>This is how you and I are alike, Paul. I believe those very words could be used to describe Amanada. My (then)H also came here, to these boards, and proclaimed a love for me that he was willing to save -- but too quickly, he was back into the arms of another woman. Just as Amanda came here, professed love for you, and yet, three months later, is married to someone else.<P>How you and I are not alike is that when you found another woman (your friend, who you mentioned when you first came back here)... you did the "right" thing and stopped the friendship. I did as you did, and continued on with the friendship, and in fact, married the guy. <P>You know how well I've reconciled that fact. I've beat myself up severely for it (and although I have been largely supported, I have been blasted but good also). <P>I'd like to think that my ex is like you too, because he's a Christian man with his own set of values. I say "I'd like to" because it has proven out that his set of values is skewed... however, in my warped kind of revisionist history, my ex is a good man who is so mixed up... however, in reality, he is a man who is hurting people all over the place, and who I fear is headed for a great big fall. But still, I'd like to think he is worthy of love and respect. I just no longer have it for him -- but I want to. See my problem??<P>So, Paul, I'm following your story closely, and hoping for a really wonderful outcome for you. I don't know if it will be with Amanda, but I kind think ... not. She has some bridges to burn and some lessons to learn, just like my ex. <P>You take good care of you right now. Get strong. I don't think your story is over by a longshot... and you'll need strength...<P>Your friend,<P>Sheryl<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited August 28, 2001).]
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