Warning: Venting Ahead.<P>Seems like everyone else is having a bad time at their counseling sessions, so why not me?<P>This was the first one after the move out. We talked a little bit about how that has gone, what the day was like and what the time since has been. All that went well.<P>But then it was time to get into what our next goal in counseling is, and this may be where the wife and I split ways. For the last two months, the counseling has been focused on making to move-out "work," dealing with the kids and the fallout of my wife's hell-bent for leather separation plan. That's mostly accomplished. So, are we going to examine the marriage, her disappoinment, my failings (or visa-versa), or are we just going to make sure the legal stuff goes smoothly? Do we need a marriage counselor or a divorce mediator?<P>Whenever my wife starts to actually talk about what went wrong for her, she lets out a little, and then clams up. She says she doesn't see the point in re-hashing the past. <P>She doesn't say it this way, but it's clear to me that withdrawal from the marriage is less painful to her than conflict. She thinks she can handle the pain of divorce, if it can be done without conflict. Reconciling will mean bringing up all the pain, getting into conflict over it, and negotiating a resolution to it. It's hard work, and she's scared of it. <P>And she's scared in part because if she's wrong, if the marriage is not the problem, then all that's left to examine is herself- and that will be really painful. <P>So, our next session is scheduled for September 4th. Our anniversary, for those of you with a taste for irony. We may have to delay it- my wife mentioned she thought she had something to take care of at school that day. But whenever we have it, it looks like I'll be saying "let's talk about what went wrong," and she'll be saying "let's not." <P>Here's the kicker: in the session she said she no longer thought of us as a couple, and she thought I did. I said, yes, I do. I think we're a couple in a dark, dark time of our relationship, but I haven't cut the cord. I said I can still feel the connection between us, even if she doesn't. But, leave that aside: she says we're not a couple. <P>Today, one day later, she came over to my house, we and the kids went to a housewarming cookout that some friends were having, then took the kids to Target for some back-to-school shopping, and she came over to my house and read bedtime stories. Yes, we're not a couple. <BR>

Been a few days, Train. Here's my counseling experience-maybe you can compare.<P>We have had two sessions. We are going to an Imago therapist-the idea is that we choose mates based on unmet needs from childhood. Lots of looking back at parents etc. Sounds nutty, but it does make some sense. Therapist asks for committment to 12 sessions. We both agreed.<P>First session was rough. She asked goals-i said reconciliation, W said not sure. W looked like she did not want to be there. i got emotional, she became ice cold. Ended badly.<P>Fast forward 2 weeks to second session. Asked for goals again, i said same thing, W said again not sure. But session went much better. We made some progress, both had a few 'aha' moments. She was still very unemotional (for her), i kept it in check better this time, but not completely in check. When sesion ended, she said she felt some 'compassion' towards me, but quickly added that is no reason to reconcile. i actually agree with that-there needs to be much more. We agreed that next session will be 1 1/2 hours, not usual one hour. i see that as good sign. She asked therapist if, by the end of the sessions, 'will i know?'. Therapist said probably. So, the session must have gotten her thinking at least a little, although she still says she 'thinks we are headed towards D'.<P>After the session, we talked in the parking lot fo long time. She reiterated the compassion line, with the same caveat. i told her i agreed. Then she said 'we both need to find ourselves, then see if we can come back together as two new people'. i saw that as progress.<P>Backing away from her chosen course of action will be hard for her-i think she would view it as 'losing', and that is going to stand in the way for her. And her veil of non-emotion is a problem. i wish she would scream and yell at me in the sessions, get the emotional juices flowing. She is bottling up emotions-good and bad. i need to be less emotional (this is total role reversal for us btw).<P>i have started to believe that no matter why they are at the therapy, it is good they are there. A chance to communicate in a controlled, realtively safe setting. i also think the philosophy of the therapist is key-some are pro-marriage, some neutral, some pro-D.<P>i keep telling myself that no matter how **** -sure they seem, they are confused and don't really understand what they are doing. They are in the fog, fed by others including OM and 'friends' who want to spread the misery of their own failed R's.<P>Our next session is Tuesday. Stay tuned. Hope this at least gives you another experience to comapre to.<P>Peace Train.

I think this cookout and going to Target may mean the counseling is making her think. Keep up the good work - I believe things are going better than you think. Why would she be spending time going to a cookout?? Going to target with you?? Play it cool and don't pressure her. If she's hanging out with you, that's a step in the right direction. This gives you the opportunity to show her that you are fun to be around. See my thread " Gleam of Hope for Dumpees" My friend in that story did exactly what you were doing - hanging out with his wife. Make the kids an important issue and do things together with her and the kids - good start. Do fun stuff and only talk about positive things - happy talk - no OR talk. Talk about things that nterest's her. No arguing. Agree with her and if you can't agree then avoid talking about it. Make yourself a pleasure to be around and mention nothing to her about getting back together. Think about you and your wife when you first started dating - you didn't ask her to marry you before you courted her, right? Same thing here. You are apart and you have to become friends before you can become lovers. At the counseling sessions, try to talk about things that will improve your relationship with her as a friend and as parents of your children rather than forcing the "getting back together" topic. You'll only scare her away. Right now she thinks that's what YOU want - not what she wants. She's got to figure this one out for herself and when she does, you'll be ready.

DBT,<P>Can you say C-O-N-F-L-I-C-T A-V-O-I-D-E-R??????? The more I read about your wife, the more I am convinced she is a long lost sister to "AGoodGuy's" wife!!! His wife eventually ended up building alot of resentment toward him because she avoided conflict throughout their entire marriage. <P>Your wife has got to somehow get it all out in the open before you can forge ahead. Do you think she clams up in counseling because she is afraid to hurt you?<P>How are you feeling with her being out of the house and yet she comes back for bedtime stories and such? Is it bothering you yet or are you still enjoying her company and feel it is part of Plan A? <P>When you have time to think, run through what Plan B would entail for you and see if you can decipher what your wife would think about it and how she would respond. IF she is having a PA (or EA for that matter) it would no longer allow her to have her cake and eat it too. It may give her a good dose of reality and possibly what she needs to shake her off the fence.<P>Do you have any more sessions lined up with Dr. Harley?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ANB3:<BR>Hope this at least gives you another experience to comapre to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It does. Your wife and mine should get together some time- they seem to be soul sisters. The difficulty "backing away" from the plan... the control of the emotions (and especially it not being her normal pattern)... "no matter how **** -sure they seem, they are confused and don't really understand what they are doing...." Yes, it all sound familiar, so I would read appreciate anything you care to post about your progress. Thanks for your interest.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Katie Carlson:<BR>I believe things are going better than you think. Why would she be spending time going to a cookout?? Going to target with you?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, she would say that it's for the children. She says she doesn't believe in "staying together for the children," but she wants us to be "a family in two houses." But we seem to enjoy each other's company: we sat and talked with the other guests, none of whom (except the hosts) knew we were separated, and we weren't just civil to each other. We played badmiton for a few minutes (with our three-year-old- it was a hoot). Looked at pictures from a play our daughter and the host's daughter were in. Split a beer. When she left my house later, I told her thanks, I had fun. She said "it was alright." Is she putting on a show?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Play it cool and don't pressure her.... no OR talk. Talk about things that nterest's her. No arguing. Agree with her and if you can't agree then avoid talking about it. Make yourself a pleasure to be around and mention nothing to her about getting back together....She's got to figure this one out for herself and when she does, you'll be ready. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know all this, and I'm trying to put it into action. I just need a reinforcement every now and then- so thanks for providing that, both here and in your "dumpees" thread.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She doesn't say it this way, but it's clear to me that withdrawal from the marriage is less painful to her than conflict. She thinks she can handle the pain of divorce, if it can be done without conflict. Reconciling will mean bringing up all the pain, getting into conflict<BR>over it, and negotiating a resolution to it. It's hard work, and she's scared of it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is probably part of it. The other part may be that reconciliation means extending your heart again, opening it to the possibility of being hurt in the relationship all over again. I don't know what happened in your relationship, but if she felt deeply hurt, it is hard to risk that again.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wifeofcop:<BR>Can you say C-O-N-F-L-I-C-T A-V-O-I-D-E-R??????? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I can, because that's one of my problems too- which is obviously a recipe for maritial problems. But at least I'm recognizing it now.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Your wife has got to somehow get it all out in the open before you can forge ahead. Do you think she clams up in counseling because she is afraid to hurt you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In part, afraid to hurt me, both because underneath it all she loves me, and because she's afraid that I'll turn hurt into anger and lash out at her. But she's also afraid to question herself too deeply right now- she's bet the farm that the marriage is the problem and is unfixable, and finding out either or both of those statements aren't true would cost her, emotionally.<P>If she ever gets it out in the open, then I know we can progress, because the pieces she's given me so far are all things I can agree with and work on. I don't think we're the perfect couple and that she's nuts to be unhappy; I think we're a good couple with solvable problem who can be happier with each other than apart. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How are you feeling with her being out of the house and yet she comes back for bedtime stories and such? Is it bothering you yet or are you still enjoying her company and feel it is part of Plan A? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Still OK. I worry that my admiration for her is an LB- and it's not like I shower her with compliments, but she gets a little stiff if I even say "you look nice tonight." But when we talk about kids, houses, jobs, etc., we're fine. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When you have time to think, run through what Plan B would entail for you and see if you can decipher what your wife would think about it and how she would respond. IF she is having a PA (or EA for that matter) it would no longer allow her to have her cake and eat it too. It may give her a good dose of reality and possibly what she needs to shake her off the fence.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have been thinking about that. Right now, I think she would interpret that as I'm lashing out at her, hurt and angry, etc.- it would be an excuse to dislike me. I haven't built enough of a Plan A base to make Plan B work. (Of course, since I'm a conflict avoider, maybe that's just what I want to believe!) But the "have your cake and eat it too" line, which usually applies to affairs, may in our case apply to parenting/family issues: she wants me to be her co-parent, the way I always have been, and she wants the four of us to be a family, but she doesn't want the two of us to be a couple. If I get to plan B, that may be the main illusion I'll try to break.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do you have any more sessions lined up with Dr. Harley?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, not right now. I'm going to see where the joint counseling goes, and then take it from there.<P>As ever, thanks for your interest.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by dabigtrain (edited August 26, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dabigtrain:<BR><B> the "have your cake and eat it too" line, which usually applies to affairs, may in our case apply to parenting/family issues: she wants me to be her co-parent, the way I always have been, and she wants the four of us to be a family, but she doesn't want the two of us to be a couple. If I get to plan B, that may be the main illusion I'll try to break</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree that Plan B is very questionable when you really have no evidence of an ongoing affair, but in your current situation I think Plan B could serve as a huge eye opener to your wife when she is suddenly aware that you have no desire to play family with her only when it serves her needs and then she goes back to her home and continues on with the new life she's created on her own. That is also "having her cake and eating it too". <P>It could be the first crack in the new foundation she's built for her to see that your lives will not continue on this way forever and when she sees the reality of what life will be like if you two stay apart, she may not like it.<P>I realize you are in Plan A, but I think sometimes it is easy for the other spouse to (even unknowingly) manipulate the situation and the Plan A'er is trying so hard to be accomodating that they just let it happen. In reality, the other spouse is thinking how easy it was to get everything they wanted and how life will be great now because they didn't have to "give up" too much-they can have a taste of their old life whenever they want and they can also have their new life that they think makes them so happy. They think they now have the best of both worlds and they can't see it changing.<P>It has also got to be a huge guilt reliever for your wife to come and see the kiddies whenever she wants and perhaps your children aren't going through all the normal separation adjustments because she is around so much, but if/when you hit a structured Plan B and your children take the adjustment a little harder, she'll then have to address the fact that her action's are what is causing all the turmoil. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Wifeofcop (edited August 26, 2001).]