I feel so depressed right now that I almost feel as if I just can't go on anymore. A quick little background. Last week both my H and I were supposed to have written down our "What I need for CJ to move home" list, and I spent days finishing mine and doing a good job, and he didn't even do his. We had had an unwritten understanding between us that I would move some of my clothes home as a gesture of encouragement, then after we had gone over our "move home" lists, I would move the rest of my clothes home so that I was packing to go over to the other house. You know...a STEP. Something small and attainable to make it seem a little less intimidating. Then, after we had gone over our lists and written two contracts, the "move home" contract and the "work on this after I come home" contract, I would start moving home and working our agreements. (Tears). Can you see the light at the end of that tunnel? I could. Now the tunnel has moved and moved again.<P>Right now, I am SO disappointed that I'm not moving back home that I just feel angry and sad sometimes...like a kid screaming "it's not fair!!" I did all the work I was supposed to do so that I could take step one to come home! I was all hopeful and ready to move forward and brave, and now I can't get the reward (again!!). I took the stupid risk, and I put forth the effort, and I took it seriously. I thought about it and did research and asked for advice and even talked to my H about it!! Hell, I even came up with the idea of moving making smaller, more managable steps!! I thought it would seem a little less intimidating. Sigh.<P>But, although I felt really disappointed last week, and still do feel sorely disappointed, I was willing to wait until this Wednesday and take a chance and see if my H did his list or not--and hopefully, with our counselor's help, we would start going over our lists and I would be able to move my clothes THIS week. Then we could just follow through on the steps, make the "agreements" and it would be all better--I could literally see the light at the end of the tunnel, if I could just wait until this Wednesday!!! I mean, it's just a week to wait, and whether he came with his list and put in the effort this week or not was going to tell me a LOT about whether he is willing to a) actually make the effort to get me home, b) take a chance and open up to me, and c) not blame me for everything. Damn it, it wasn't easy, but I was willing to wait a week and see what happened!! Here's a chance to show me some stability and reassurance and comfort and solidity, and instead, I'm kept guessing and hoping and... and... and...! Anyway, this Wednesday was going to tell me A LOT about our marriage!!!!!!!!!<P>Now, our counselor can't come this week!! IT'S NOT FAIR!!! Now it's all put off again for ANOTHER WEEK, and he has another whole week to avoid your assignments and put it off, and I'm being screwed. I DID THE ASSIGNMENT. I TOOK THE RISK. I WANT THIS!! Yet again I have bravely followed through on my part, even though it was scary, and I was not able to claim the prize that was promised to me. ANOTHER BROKEN PROMISE!! MY MIND IS SCREAMING!!!<P>I can not do this anymore. I can not keep putting my life off and off and off and off! In two weeks I will HAVE to move out of my old house (because we rented it), and if we have not gotten through these damn lists, reached an agreement, and DONE the agreements, I can't move home!! DAMN IT!! I'm NOT going to be forced into moving back home because I have no where else to go!!!!!! I will not move back home because his inaction leaves me no options. Now I have to go out and look for a damn apartment, which I did not want to do because that involves at least a six month commitment AWAY FROM HOME--all because this damn assignment has been put off and put off and put off. IT'S NOT FAIR!! I did the damn work and look how I am getting repaid. When will the day ever come that I do the work, put in the effort AND GET THE DAMN REWARD???!!! <P> <P><BR>I can not do this anymore!!!!!<P>CJ<P><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I am sorry that you are having a hard time, especially after making a great effort to do all the things you were suppose to do. For whatever reasons he put for little or no effort to do his list. I believe that everything happens for a reason, sometimes reasons we can not see because we are blinded by the reward that dangles in front of our eyes. Perhaps it is best for you that this happened, perhaps you both truely need more time to work on yourselves and grow as individuals. I think it inmature and irresponsible of him not to do the work he was suppose to. Perhaps it is a sign that he is not commited to doing the work it will take after you move back. It seems to me this was the easy job, the real work is in what happens after you are back. take your time reflect on your relationship and your part in it all, are you truely ready to make this move back, is he ready to have you back. Reflect on the oppurtunities you have now to take more time, perhaps more counseling and to grow as an individual. Just my thoughts and opinions here. Keep moving in the right direction and take care of yourself.<P>

I’d like to encourage to you take a hard look at your priorities in your difficult time. I know a roof over your head is a bare necessity, and it’s hard to look at your options when you don’t know where you’ll be in just a few weeks’ time. It’s unnerving to say the least. I face a similar dilemma as I contemplate a divorce. The location of your shelter is not as important as the future of your marriage. <P>The two of you had a reasonable assignment – make a list. To make your marriage mutually satisfying, may I dare suggest that a list is one of the easier things to do? You did your part. Your H didn’t. Are you really willing to move back home when your request is dismissed so nonchalantly by your H? You’ve expressed interest in seeing him make an effort to get you home, in seeing him be open and honest with you. You’ve described how that interest is absent. Have you explored the possibility that you’re “speaking a different language?” Perhaps he’s showing interest in a way you’ve been unable to detect. Or perhaps the interest is indeed absent. <P>My responses are shaded with the colors of my own marriage, so decide for yourself how similar we are. In my case, H attended counseling with me for four months. I started counseling on my own last November, and moved out for a month Dec/Jan. As a condition of my return (somewhat contrived since my housing was temporary from day 1), I requested that he attend counseling with me. I fully expected a no. To my surprise he said yes. As it turned out, though, the ONLY times we discussed “issues” was in counseling. As I voiced my view of the marriage, I saw some small improvements at first. In each new session I would acknowledge whatever small steps he took toward improving, while holding true to my overall belief that the status quo was unchanged. In short, I want his participation in this marriage. I want intimacy and an equally balanced load of responsibilities. Those items are unchanged. As long as we are under the same roof, I believe they will continue to be unchanged. He quit going after 4 months because he felt like a "whipping post." <P>CJ, I can see how much you want your H to participate in the reconciliation so you can move home. I’d like to suggest that you don’t need to wait until your next counseling session to find out a lot about your marriage. If the counseling session is the only time he participates, it seems to me that you already have what you need to know. You can’t control another person. Your participation doesn’t guarantee his participation. Does he consider his presence in the same room with you and counselor “participation?” (that seems to be how my H viewed his “participation”) Would it be fair to say that you expect his participation in sessions to include more than his mere presence, perhaps some promises that he will keep? <P>A fully functional marriage requires the participation of BOTH spouses. You’re doing your part. The other shoe doesn’t seem to be dropping. That in itself may be all you need to know about whether you two share the same roof anytime soon. Is there any way to undo the renting of your current location? Or how about having your H be the one who looks for a new roof over his head so that you can move home? After all, if the agreement was to work on the list so you can move home, why should you be the one to suffer the consequences for his failure to participate? Don’t forget to consider all your options, even the seemingly impossible ones. You may not know the how, the where, or the when, but one of your options is to move home and have him live somewhere else. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>I can not do this anymore!!!!!<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Bull Butter, that's right you heard me BULL BUTTER. CJ if this marriage is what you want then waiting another week isn't going to kill you. Those are pretty harsh words coming from me, aren't they?<P>Honey, no one is this forum would blame you one little bit for giving him the walking papers right now. But then again that's not what you want so we need to chart a new course. Now I'm no therapist or anything but IMO your H knows that he has you between a rock and a hard place with the living arrangements. This is shifting his motivation, why should he put forth this effort when YOU'LL have to come home in a couple of weeks anyway? It ain't right, but I believe that could be Mr. Man's thought process.<P>So again the ball's in your court. Again, we come to a crossroad and have to decide which path to follow. We look to the left and see around $5,000 rent for a chance to continue separation and hopefully work towards a happy ending for CJ or we look to the right and see you going home in two weeks with basically nothing resolved and falling into the same pattern that you left.<P>You know that I'll be here for you whichever path you choose to follow but again the choice is yours.<P>(((((((((((CJ))))))))))))<BR><P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

I'll be honest CJ without making light of your post. I loved it. Not the misery and 'unfairness'. But the blunt straight-forwardness. I read the post and kept saying 'Yeah, me too! And that too! This sucks!!!'<P>I wanted to rant and rave too. I guess I'm trying to say that I can relate. I don't know of anyone here that can say 'Hey, Ive done that, I know what you're going through.' All of the situations are a little different, no two cases the exact same.<P>I personally am impressed by the strength and fortitude you possess. It even shows through in this post. '...I will survive...as long as...' can't remember much of the song but it's you. You will survive. You are Faithful!<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

CJ - <P>What I thought of while reading your VENT was how ISTJ personalities seem to think in technical/logical terms...<P>ie. She has to go somewhere in two weeks, she will come home, she will do the work to get here, I don't have to do the work, the result will be the same.<P>My STBX just did the same kind of thing to me. It was insurance on his pick up. I quit paying for him, so he went and tried to get a duplicate policy where it would be billed to the house here. He told the new agent that he's just 'working away from home' that we are still married and used my address as his address for his insurance.<P>THey aren't willing to put forth the effort - but willingly take the credit and rewards.<P>Don't know what to tell you - LIFE IS NOT FAIR!!! I've been there - so I understand that part - I just didn't find a solution that I felt was any better.<P>I can send you a hug and encouragment...? Not much - but maybe it helps!

Oh CJ, <P>I'm having such a tough time finding the right words for you right now. <P>I've been there, I know what you're feeling, and it's soooo not fair.<P>I sent you an email earlier this evening, and it was returned... now, you wrote this and haven't returned. I am very, very concerned.<P>I take the words, "I can't go on anymore" very seriously. Having come from a family where suicide was threatened and tried, I take those words to heart.<P>Please write and let us know you are okay.<P>Love, Sheryl

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B>Please write and let us know you are okay.<P>Love, Sheryl</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sheryl, put your mind at ease Miss CJ is alive and well.<P>

Lovely Miss Sheryl,<P>Take a deep breathe, lady, because I am fine. Pretty good, actually. I'm not sure where you wrote to, but my email address is cindy_cj_wolfe@hotmail.com. <P>Maybe I am over my limit for emails--haha! So many people write to me that my fingers get tired from typing sometimes. My work email is primarily for work, but I'm sure you know that email too, so worst case scenario, you will always be able to catch me at work. I'm a nice, dependable, faithful old accountant for the government, you know! (evil grin)<P>Anyway, here's a little update. I haven't had very much sleep in the last couple of nights, but in a wierd way that has been good, because when it's late at night and I'm not sleeping, I calmly think and pray. I feel a lot better in many ways, because I have decided to do two things: 1) I've entered a protect-CJ mode, which is to say, I am going to duck behind about a half wall and guard my heart. I need to keep my "self" safe and I have let myself down in that area. 2) I've decided to live my life. I am going to be the person I am supposed to be and I am going to do some of the things that bring me joy and make my life happy. If my H wants to be part of my life--GREAT!!! But if not, that is okay too. I putting my focus back on doing what I need to do, rather than trying to do stuff for him or do stuff to "patch up" the relationship. <P>Does this make any sense? Rather than spend my life trying to make our marriage happen, I'm just going to live. Heck, you know me--I'll live in a way that honors my vows and all (so don't get your undies in a bundle, heehee). But rather than working, and listing, and pushing, and crying, and hurting--I'm just going to keep my focus on me. <P>Now...Miss Sheryl. I need to tell you a horrible story so that you know where I am coming from, but brace yourself, okay? You know what kind of childhood I had, right? I was sexually abused by my father as a young child, and when it stopped (I moved to my own bed), I thought it was over, and it never occurred to me to think otherwise. I think partially because of the abuse I was a virgin well into my 20's--concentrated on school as a teenager--yada yada yada, but I wasn't "afraid" of sex, just kind of naive and didn't have a desire to go there. HOWEVER, unbeknownst to me, shortly after my dad stopped with me, he started up with my younger sister. He abused her for years--all through her elementary, middle school and high school years, and I never caught them, and I never thought to even think of it. More on this later. <P>Well, I did not know what was going on, but I did know that my sister was melancholy and quiet and shy and always wanted to be alone and a bookworm and introverted--I just thought that was the way she was! So, one day, when she was about 14 or 15, she said to me that she wished she could die, and I thought she was talking about being hit and stuff, so I said, "I know what you mean. I've thought about it too." Then she went to her room and closed her door, like she always did, and it was quiet in there for about an hour. I went in just to ask her a homework question. She said it, and I found her. She didn't die, but she tried for real, and I will NEVER forget.<P>So, just so you know, I will never, ever, ever, EVER make a statement that is a veiled suicide threat. OH NO! It is my opinion that when people are depressed enough to say out loud that they want to die or are thinking of dying, it is time for ACTION! I guarantee you, I do NOT kid about this, I do NOT take it lightly, and I will not ever threaten to kill myself. The wierdest thing of all is this: I will be the very first to admit that this hurts like hell and feels like my heart is being ripped out, but the strange strength I find is that I have already survived MUCH worse!!! I can get through this easy. I know that I keep engaging myself and opening myself up for the hurt, but any time I want to, I can stop. <P>So, are you okay? When I say, "I can't go on", I mean that I can not keep fighting anymore. I need a rest--I need to disengage--I need to detach. Okay???? Okay. Now, if I weren't an alcoholic, I'd need a drink <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Lost Husband, Thank you for giving me the update, although by the time I saw it, CJ was HERE! <P>CJ,<P>Like you, I've had much too much experience with suicide threats and attempts... and I'm glad (if I can be about such things) that you understand I wasn't meaning to pry... just very concerned and taking your words quite seriously.<P>The story of your sister breaks my heart in pieces too... I have no understanding of animals that hurt children -- not to mention their own flesh and blood. Is she a survivor too?? Did she make it out with some sense of her worth?<P>Two of my children were sexually abused, as was I, and there is nothing that can compare. My son and I were talking the other night, and he casually says, "Do you think the abuse makes me do this?"... what a friggen way to live... it's like the abuse is a hub, and everything goes around it.<P>I'm so thankful you are fine, CJ. You sound like you've got a plan.... and trankly, I'm just glad you are ALIVE!! The world needs CJ!!

Oh <B>CJ</B>... <P>I've read this post and you've gotten some good thoughts... your H doesn't have to do anything to achieve the *goal* of your moving home... or so he thinks... you've got to come up with a BATNA.<P><B>B</B>est<BR><B>A</B>lternative<BR><B>T</B>o a<BR><B>N</B>egotiated<BR><B>A</B>greement<P>That means this... what is your back up plan? What will you do if in fact he doesn't get it done by the next counseling session? What is your option for rescheduling later this week instead of on Wednesday? What housing options do you have besides where you're currently living? How about asking him to leave your house and you go home... if that's your BATNA? <P>Your BATNA has to be strong... his BATNA is to do nothing and that is stronger than going through with the negotiated agreement - jumping through hoops to get CJ home (maybe this is his perspective). AND yes, if he's not going to work with you on this then what about the nitty gritty stuff?<P>Okay, talk to ya later... here's a HUG! {{{{<B>CJ</B>}}}}<P>Shalom,<BR>Nicole<P>------------------<BR><I>"You will deceive yourself into believing that if people, circumstances, and events had been different, your pain would not exist...Your pain is the concrete way in which you participate in the pain of humanity."</I> <BR>~ Henri Nouwen ~

(((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))<P>((((((((((((((((((((Sheryl))))))))))))))))))))<P>((((((((((((((((((((Nicole)))))))))))))))))))<P>I don't know about y'all but it's getting late here in the land of Oz and I'm trying to figure out why the hell we are all still up. Guess it's for the love of a friend.<P>CJ, your cup runneth over.<P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

(((((Bill)))))<P>One for you too, our friend.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited August 28, 2001).]

CJ,<P>I've been thinking about your situation when I have time. You wrote on one of your other threads about at least one big argument with your H. Now perhaps this means that you're getting strong enough to stand up for yourself instead of just passively taking the hurt he dishes out. However, my take is that it has more to do with your love bank being emptied.<P>You had already dealt with a lot and learned to be strong by yourself while he was gone. But, as you've learned, when you try again with someone you become newly vulnerable, even if you had reached the point of not caring at all. Then when they cause pain or just don't meet ENs this destroys love and even can start to build anger and hate. We can choose how we act, but to a large degree how we feel is involuntary.<P>Anyway, the bottom line is that I think you are wise to pull back and protect yourself. It's not just necessary for you; if you don't pull back you'll probably wind up hating him if he doesn't change. Thus, by trying to rush into intimacy that he's not ready for, you'll lose what love you have left for him and whatever chance there is to salvage your marriage.<P>Whether there is such a chance I don't know, but I think that whatever chance there is will be maximized if you don't engage in ennabling behavior. As I wrote to you, I would hope that your counselor could help you to evaluate whether there is progress and hope and give you some perspective through the ups and downs.<P>Don't stay up all night, I wouldn't want you to get debits and credits mixed up tomorrow .<P>Steve

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Moyers:<BR><B>I'll be honest CJ without making light of your post. I loved it. Not the misery and 'unfairness'. But the blunt straight-forwardness. I read the post and kept saying 'Yeah, me too! And that too! This sucks!!!'<P>I wanted to rant and rave too.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Paul, you are so cute! YOU GOT IT!! Yay! I knew darn well that I was being about a five year old having a temper tantrum, but darn it--I felt like having one gigantic whiney crab session. Not too much more than that. I felt very emotional, had to get it out some way, and just sat in the corner and pouted! BTW, it was kind of fun--you might want to try it. Trust me, we will understand!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> I personally am impressed by the strength and fortitude you possess. It even shows through in this post. '...I will survive...as long as...' can't remember much of the song but it's you. You will survive. You are Faithful!<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, wow! Thanks. I'd have to say I didn't notice that quality in myself, but now that you've said something--cool, thanks. <P>CJ<P><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>Oh CJ</B>... <P>I've read this post and you've gotten some good thoughts... your H doesn't have to do anything to achieve the *goal* of your moving home... or so he thinks... you've got to come up with a BATNA.<P><B>B</B>est<BR><B>A</B>lternative<BR><B>T</B>o a<BR><B>N</B>egotiated<BR><B>A</B>greement<P>That means this... what is your back up plan? What will you do if in fact he doesn't get it done by the next counseling session? What is your option for rescheduling later this week instead of on Wednesday? What housing options do you have besides where you're currently living? How about asking him to leave your house and you go home... if that's your BATNA? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nicole, <P>I'm so glad to hear from you! You always have such good stuff to contribute and you always know just the right thing to challenge me and make me think! Anyway, I do have a BANTA and in my words, I call that my "Plan B". I know, that tends to confuse people here, so I like your BANTA term better, but the idea is the same: a backup plan. Plan ahead what you are going to do if your first option doesn't come through. I even do that each night! Like, "My first plan is to have dinner with the kids and watch a show, but Plan B is to make a fance dinner for myself and write."<P>HOWEVER, I had totally forgotten to do a BANTA for this situation. I was so focused on my first option that I didn't want to have to look at a second plan. So, thanks for reminding me. Now, I do have a BANTA, and I feel a lot better, because no matter how it goes, I know where I'll be. Thanks, lady!!<P>CJ<P><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LostHusband:<BR><B>I don't know about y'all but it's getting late here in the land of Oz and I'm trying to figure out why the hell we are all still up. Guess it's for the love of a friend.<P>CJ, your cup runneth over. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know what the best part is? I KNOW it! I know how lucky I am while I am being lucky, so it's like doubly great. Bill, you know that so greatly appreciate you and Nicole and Sheryl and Jacky, but thanks for reminding me and thanks for the chance to tell you all so!<P><BR>CJ<BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StillHers:<BR><B> ...You wrote on one of your other threads about at least one big argument with your H. ...my take is that it has more to do with your love bank being emptied. ...as you've learned, when you try again with someone you become newly vulnerable, even if you had reached the point of not caring at all. Then when they cause pain or just don't meet ENs this destroys love and even can start to build anger and hate. We can choose how we act, but to a large degree how we feel is involuntary. ...by trying to rush into intimacy that he's not ready for, you'll lose what love you have left for him... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Steve, <P>You are SPOOKY!! That is EXACTLY the same way that I feel, and no one but you picked up on it! Not only is my love bank bone dry, I don't feel like he cares about my love bank and is totally unwilling to try to fill my love bank! I've felt unwanted and neglected, and I've told him that, but it didn't seem to phase him. He wants to work on his anger and raging (which is very good, don't get me wrong), but to the exclusion of working on anything with me. Meanwhile, I feel like I'm ignored, unimportant, unneeded, and there's not one part of me that he likes and loves. I am trying again...starting again with a love bank that is so low it's painful, so every time he does hurt me, it feels like it's magnified 10 times! There have even been times when I consciously said to myself, "Please stop it! You are killing what little love I have left for you!"<P>Recently we have been spending time apart, and I have to tell you, it has been wonderful. I mean, I miss him and all, but when I am gone, he suddenly doesn't just take me for granted. I think he appreciates me when I'm there; and I know I appreciate him a lot more too. We have actually had some VERY, VERY good productive talks, and I have to logically say that I think a whole lot of this progress is because we are not "rushing into an intimacy for which we are not ready" (to use your terms). <P>Well, as usual Steve, you are right on the target!<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Hello Faithful,<P>Jumping in late here, been away on vacation.<P>Does your BATNA involve staying for a week or so in a residential hotel? You could pay by the week and not be committed to a six month lease. Just a thought.<P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

CJ,<P>While you two are seperated...are you going out on dates together? I mean...like does he call you a week in advance <BR>and say hey would you like to go to dinner and a movie next saturday? or go to the park and have a picnic? or have you called him to do that? I say a week in advance because you have kids..and that would give you time to get a sitter, and maybe make reservations if your going to dinner..<P>And then NOT talk about the problems on the date...find other things to discuss...I tried that w/ stbx..I asked HIM<BR>out to dinner..(we only went once..the other times he canx'd out..and the times he asked me out..he can'x as well..so it didn't work that well with me) but it's something..if both parties are willing..at least to give it a try...maybe meet for lunch or something?? or coffee?? or even get a sitter <BR>one night after the kids are in bed..and then go meet someplace for a 1:00 am breakfast....or even rent a movie that you'd both like to see..and invite him over to watch it with you one night after the kids are in bed..(or see about the kids staying the night at a friends house)get a comedy or something that you will both be able to laugh at..to kind of remove the tension..but I'd also add..have a plan b..just in case he does a no-show on the date.go ahead and watch the movie yourself..or go to dinner alone..I know..not alot of fun...but at least you'd get out for awhile..<P>And who knows..after a couple of "date" nights it could get better...and I'd also add..that you should make it known that if he's to come over to your home..then he's not going to stay the night..and if you go to his home that you won't be staying the night..that way there is no presure..and make it like a real date..like your just getting to know each other..and you wouldn't want to have sex w/ someone your just getting to know<BR>right away...<p>[This message has been edited by ThornedRose (edited September 07, 2001).]