Ok, I guess I should rephrase! All the men here that have chimed in I totally understand - these are the obvious reasons. Lots of men would be better at raising the kids than the wife. I think some men here are taking offense when this wasn't directed at the decent men here. I think much of this is a no brainer. I wish there was a way to edit the topic line, because it is confusing to people.<P>I guess I was asking about the not so noble reasons, and if it happens very often. This would probably be a better question for the women here who have had to fight someone who was going for custody for spiteful reasons, not for the men who truly and rightfully believe they are better suited (hey, or visa versa for that matter). I just wanted to know if this is something that happens OFTEN? It seems when you talk to a lawyer (not just our friend Lee), it is common. Therefore, I have that nagging distrust that makes me keep up my walls.<P>Ashley, he could very well be. I guess I should give him a chance and get to know him first. My problem is that my X was as smooth as silk and it took me 20 years to catch on to what he was doing. I don't trust myself to know anymore.<P>------------------<BR>Kathy<BR><p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited August 29, 2001).]

Kathi,<P>Your post and question intrigued me for several reasons. The most obvious was your basic gut level feeling that a man would be more likely than a woman to fight for custody of the children for financial reasons.<P>Since I have known more than a few woman that used the child support system to remove as much as $10,000 to $20,000 per month from ex-H's pocket, I would guess that women might be more inclined if H makes lots of money.<P>However, I really posted to you to point out several things one of which Bystander who posts in the Pregnancy section and others from time to time mentions.<P>His thesis is that there would be fewer divorces in this country in woman stood as good a chance of losing primary custody of children as men did. Typically, in a divorce the man will lose his home, access to his children, much of the money he makes, and of course his marriage, NO MATTER WHO HAD THE AFFAIR, WAS AT FAULT, ect. So it will come as no surprise to you that women file the majority of divorce proceedings. <P>As has been mentioned the deck is so stacked against men that often they don't fight for custody. When they do fight, it is frequently because they have reason to believe that the mother is truely unfit, or has simply abandoned the children. Those are basically the only grounds that men have much of a chance. So states are going to the 50/50 custody point of view.<P>The second point I wanted to make was really not a point at all. Just a reminder up until the (I believe) 1920's men got custody of the children not women. Again, it was almost automatic. It was eventually determined that this wasn't fair, and the pendulum has now swung to the other side.<P>I would guess that if your friend is fighting for custody of the children, he loves them deeply, he has reason to suspect he will be the better parent to the children, and he feels he can prove it in court.<P>Don't forget one other thing. Most men do love there children deeply. We just don't necessarily show it in the same fashion as women do.<P>I thought your question very refreshing. You asked what many people seem to assume these days. Hope you regain your confidence and that perhaps this man may make your life more enjoyable.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Kathy,<P>I think I get what you were trying to ask.......<P>I'm dating a dad who had custody and has been divorced 14 years. I say had because the three kids are now the ages of 20 through 24.<P>Is he for real? Yes he is. BUT.....I had to have my poop grouped first. "Education" here at MB's, spending time healing and knowing who "I" now am since 1998. Ten months ago I finally gave in, can't be a party pooper forever!<P>Scarey, you bet. All "other gender" makes us wary after we've been hurt deeply, beyond belief. <P>He had custody of his kids because mom had "better things to do".....party, men, travel etc. Three kids were cramping her style. This is what I understand, even from his kids themselves. They are super kids! My daughter wishes she had had a "dad" like him growing up. She's now 25 and enjoys his company very much!<P>I don't believe custodial dads are something to be feared, they are something to be admired!!! I hope the same would be said of we custodial moms. Each persons case, male or female, is unique to them. We all know there are some real doozies out there giving us all a bad name "for the sake of the kids".<P>Take care,<P>Gayle<p>[This message has been edited by Ragamuffin (edited August 29, 2001).]

I need to add that during his 14 years of being divorced he dated twice prior to me. Two 6-week dating scenarios and decided to stay single and not date until they were raised. Now there's something out of the ordinary!!!! That is why I have a vast amount of respect for this man, his kids came first!

Hey JL,<P>I also think there should be an equal chance for custody in every case and it is very interesting that men used to be the ones awarded automatic custody back in the 1920s. I don't think all men love their kids tho (and not all women either) because mine rarely spent time with them when he did have the time, and now he is just plain absent. He didn't even want the regular court visitation schedule written into the divorce, he wanted just a general "statement". That was a clue to me then that he wasn't intending to see them, and he hasn't.<P>Mitzi - ya, very sad.<P>Gayle - that was my very first instinct, complete admiration of this person and I pray for him every day. But, there is that nagging part of me that says to hold off because sometimes in my life things ended up not being what they seemed! Fear is of that, not custodial dads. I think they are great and hope to find one and someday have a housefull of children. It sounds like you've found someone pretty cool. It's good to hear.<P>------------------<BR>Kathy<p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited August 29, 2001).]

Hey Kathy:<P>I'm back and the kids are in bed, for the moment anyway... I SO understand where you are coming from and I don't think the men who have responded do for two reasons. <P>One, these men are REAL dads. They obviously wanted and loved their kids forever - not until the next "thing" came along. They can't even fathom the type of man you and I are talking about. <P>Secondly, and along the same lines, these men are ACTIVE dads. Kathy and I both were stay-at-home. We took care of our kids day in and day out. Our WS's went to work and came home. Well, when our WS's decided that the grass was greener.... <P>You see folks, our husbands were only REAL dads while they wanted us. As soon as they found something better, they dumped not only us, but the kids. <P>Now, my WS is a little better than Kathy's, 'cause he sees the kids regularly (for now anyway). BUT the difference is that this seems to make my WS feel better about himself - it's not for my girls. He only loves them for how they make HIM feel. That's a big difference than how you guys feel - you are all about the kids, not yourselves....<P>So that is where Kathy is coming from. In her experience (and mine), men just aren't THAT interested unless there is an agenda. That's what she's really saying. Are there other men (besides her WS) out there that have DIFFERENT hidden agendas for wanting their kids?<P>Like me, Kathy spent alot of years married to what she thought was a wonderful Christian man, only to have the rug swept out from under her. It's hard to trust anyone or anything when the one man you counted on could do such a horrific thing not only to you, but to his own kids.... Like she said, it's impossible to trust your own instincts much less someone else's. <P>Now you men who are WS's can relate to that, right? She's not saying anything about men as primary parents. Guess who her biggest fan and source of support is? Her father! She knows how important you are because she's lucky enough to have one just like you! <P>Kathy, take the chance with this guy if that is what your heart tells you to do. You have SO much to offer the right person and unless you give yourself the chance, you'll never know, right? Life (or shall I say jerk) has dealt you the harshest blows and you have made it! It's time for YOU now!<P>

Ashley -<P>Now I know why I like you so much. When I just can't spit it out, there you go saying it for me. That works for me and what you said is about it in a nutshell.<P>I still am going to hold back, mainly because I think I need/maybe WANT to be alone for a while and kind of like things being my way for once. Maybe it would be better that way anyway because it's probably better to know someone on friend terms first anyway. I'm just not ready for it and maybe never will be, which is ok for me too.<P>All you dads here - you are wonderful people and deserve so much more than what was dealt to you.<P>------------------<BR>Kathy

Ok, I started to drop this but...<P>Kathy, Trapped Mom: Yes most men here are men with values and worth admiration. Sadly not all of us have been that way from day one. <P>My shame...Before my W and I got married I had a relationship with a girl (I say girl and not woman because we were 17) We split up and a few months later she came by and told me she was pregnant. She also said she wanted me to have nothing to do with the child. I being 17 happily agreed.<P>Two years later I get a summons. The state had come after me for back child-support whare she had been on government aid. I had gotten married by then and fought it denying the child to be mine. We did DNA tests and she proved to be mine. My x-gilrfriend and the state immediately set out to get child-support.<P>I had no chance at custody naturally. But I did force the visitation issue and had her last name changed. I did not do this because of wanting to know the child, I did it to hurt my x-girlfriend for coming after me. Shameful times in my life.<P>I forced the visitation even when my daughter did not want to come. After a while it became not because of trying to hurt my x-girlfriend but because I had motives. The more I visited with her the less money she could get. I had a plan.<P>It backfired. I fell in love with this little girl. It pained me every time to send her home. She became my daughter from the little girl I was baby-sitting to save myself some money. I began to practically beg my x-girlfriend to let her stay with me. She was used to the money and refused.<P>Guess what though. That little girl, my daughter, now lives with me and her brothers. All my children are under the roof the Lord has provided for us. So to the point at hand, yes some men do fight for custody for wrong reasons, money being one of them. I started that way, and she won. My daughter got the best of me. <P>I look back and it makes me sad to see my behaviour, but I do not see how I would be where I am with her today if things had been different then.<P>Good Luck and God Bless.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

You are not sexist as someone suggested. Long ago we had two rules of law which favored women and I suppose some older judges still follow them(silently now). One was called the maternal preference rule and the other was the tender years doctrine. Both gave a great advantage to women. The times they are a changin'. I've tried several cases for men and won. I also believe, after 18 years of this, many man do use the threat of custody to get lower child support. I've seen it many times, but many men nowadays do want custody or to share in the raising of the children after divorce. But the motives need to be right and the best interests of the child(ren) still needs to be the primary concern for the court and the parents. One writer talked of an attorney stating children were given back to a flea-bitten mother. If true, I would have to believe there is more to this story. Judges may not well in a lot of areas, but in custody cases I do believe they try. Doesn't mean they aren't wrong sometimes. The questions posted for your friend by another writer are good ones to ask. Without wanting to offend, I do have a comment for Chris: Children are not like cars or other property. If you are fighting for custody because "they are my children" what are you saying? They are not "your" children. They are the children of both parents. All I sense in that, without knowing more, is anger, vengence and spite. Don't know if I'm right, but if I am, I would take a lesson from another writer that knew the child was better off with mom at least for now. If those are the reasons you are fighting, and custody fights do affect children(I also do guardian ad-litem representing the best interests of children in custody cases), I hope you change your mind, or lose. Again, I don't know the circusmtances, but the "my children" comment struck me wrong!

Bearlee: You miss judged Chris. Long time poster. W left and he kept kids if I remember correctly. FYI<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Double post.<p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited August 29, 2001).]

Paul, see how God can make lemonade out of lemons? I'm glad you told your story.<P>Lee-bear, I have to admit sometimes I use the term my kids or my boys too. I think lots of others here did too, just words, but I know what they mean. It just gets that way when the other person is absent or has abandoned them, but isn't on purpose usually I don't think. If you want to see someone who gets in trouble for the wrong choice of words all the time, MAN! you just met her (me!). <BR> <BR>------------------<BR>Kathy

KATHY, YOU MAY BE RIGHT, BUT GO BACK AND LOOK AT THAT PARTICULAR POST AGAIN.

<B>I do have a comment for Chris: Children are not like cars or other property. If you are fighting for custody because "they are my children" what are you saying?</B><BR>I say, “"they are my children" because I WANTED children and I will do EVEYTHING in my power to raise them in the absolute best way I can.<P><B>They are not "your" children. They are the children of both parents.</B><BR>Why don’t you tell my wife that. Oh wait. That’s right. You don’t know where she is. That makes at least 4 of us now. (Me, my 2 daughters and you) Yeah Paul is correct. She left 2 1/2 years ago and has not had any contact with anyone since Feb of this year.<P><B>All I sense in that, without knowing more, is anger, vengence and spite. Don't know if I'm right, but if I am, I would take a lesson from another writer that knew the child was better off with mom at least for now. If those are the reasons you are fighting, and custody fights do affect children(I also do guardian ad-litem representing the best interests of children in custody cases), I hope you change your mind, or lose.</B><BR>As a “guardian ad-litem“, what would you suggest in my case? That mom gets custody? She hasn’t been in the same town for more than 2 months since she left. She has had NO contact in 7 months. She has not seen the children, now 10 & 16, since May 99.<P>I don’t want child support. I don’t want anything from her. She chose to leave the family. Her loss. And the kids. Not much I can do about that though. She is the one who destroyed their relationship.<P>I think the question, “why do men fight for custody“ was perhaps a bit off.<BR>Custody should be as much as possible with each parent as long as there are no circumstances which may affect the children, ie. Drugs, adultery, drinking, living in a $hithole, etc.<P>So many people use custody to “punish” their spouse/ex. That is such crap. Just as the primary custodian withholding visitation because of lack of child support payments. Two totally irrelevant issues.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited August 30, 2001).]

Still here for ya Chris. Can still feel the resentment in your posts. I feel for ya my friend, I really do. Prayers for you as well.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.