Summary - H Left May 2, this year. He was gone for two and a half months before any contact was made (me or the kids). H shows very little interest in the kids, has provided NO FINANCIAL SUPPORT for them. H first contact was through our pastor where he wanted counseling for both of us. H was ANGRY and ABUSIVE in the counseling session. H wanted to set up dates for us. As long as we are discussing his life/his job/his health/his etc. 'dates' are pleasant - if conversation turns to me or kids ANGER becomes the tone of the conversation. H has scheduled all sessions for HIS convenience. Dates, so far have been days when he got 'rained out' and requested at the last minute. Any communications about bills/finances/etc. results in him insulting my job and me personally. He was supposed to see the counselor last night - counselor was driving two hours to meet with him after 9 PM (again at H convenience). Counselors objective is to meet with him on H's turf - maybe that will negate some of the anger. <P>H's attitude hasn't changed. H isn't making any REAL effort - everything so far has been done at H's convenience. I don't see any point in continuing these charades? It seems like just a game to me - I'd rather not play!<P>Am I being narrow minded here? I spoke with my personal counselor (seperate counselor for me personally - because I had been seeing one before H moved out - and have continued seeing my counselor), he said I should probably avoid any contact at all with H until he has a change of heart - and I would know when that is. <P>I don't feel good about meeting for anymore dates - he's verbally abusive, and I don't need that. He's started attending my church again - which makes it really difficult for the kids and I to go there - because he doesn't just go there, he comes up and sits with us as if nothing is wrong, his actions confuse the kids (6,7,11, & 16) and they don't want anything to do with him - because of his verbal abuse.<P>(Just a note - before H moved away - he complained about having to attend our church because he said he didn't like the doctrine.)<P>I know this is long - but I'm really struggling with my emotions and this rollercoaster - with all of this it's a weekly rollercoaster. Painful not just for me but for the kids too.<BR>

Jan,<P>You know how <B><I>I</B></I> feel!!! Stop!!!<P>It's like PLEASE take me back so I can have you treat me like dirt!! He isn't even in control of himself enough to be nice to you on a date!!!<P>You are not being narrow minded! You are being <A HREF="http://www.drirene.com/codepend1.htm" TARGET=_blank>this</A>. <P>I had an incident the other day where I set a boundary with my h, and my counselor said "Good good!!", then she asked me how I felt, and all I could say was "mean". I should have felt good, I should have felt empowered, but instead I felt guilty and mean. But at least I set the boundary and held it!!<P>Anne

(((((((((((((((((seekingjoy))))))))))))))))))<P>I love your handle because we are all seeking joy here, aren't we?<P>I answered because I noticed you hadn't any replies yet, and I don't know that I can offer any solid advice here, except to do what you feel is right.<P>It seems to me that counselling, although it may prove to be beneficial in the long run, is a bit of a LB for your H right now. Maybe you consider a break from it, or single sessions with the counsellor instead. I know you want it because you think it will help, but if he's using it to sling mud at you, and you are getting hurt, it's not good now.<P>I wanted counselling...but in the first session he told me he wanted a divorce and didn't want to go any more. She asked me if I did...I said no (not with her...rapport wasn't there for me; she seemed to lead him into saying what he said). I haven't pressed him since, though when I have asked him I'm usually met with a stare and no verbal answer...he pretends he didn't hear.<P>Anyway, I'm starting to ramble, so I'll sign off. Just do what you feel is in the best interests of saving the marriage.<P>Take care.

H99 - you're right - I know what you would say <P>We've been through this - and basically I agree with you. I'm not sure I'm needing more advice - maybe reassurance. I just always feel like I'm a 'meany' because I'm holding my ground and hanging onto my boundaries. <P>I don't think I'm co-dependent - but, in looking over my relationships over the past several years... even many of my 'female' friends are 'dependent' on me - so I must have a need to feel needed. <P>Right at the moment - I'm not sure how to discontinue all contact. I'm trying - I've rearranged my schedule so I don't have to attend church with him - I adjusted the kids activities this year, they are participating in a different youth ministry, so they are at a different church. I'm so glad I'm a Baptist we are notorious for having several of the same denomination churches in the same town!!! We do have here!!! It's working! I have a family reunion this weekend - so I'll be having a blast while he wonders where I am.<P>Nina -<P>I like my name too - in fact, it is actually an email address I chose when I first got online. It's kind of like my personal mantra. So, Thank you!<P>Not sure that saving the marriage is even an option at this point. I think my motivation here is more along the lines of salvaging my family - letting the marriage go to keep my kids from being hurt more - and letting go of some of my personal dreams to keep me from being hurt more. I'll be the first generation in more than seven generations that didn't make the 50th Anniversary - and I barely even made 11!!! There is something REALLY sad about that!<P>Thanks for the response. Jan

Dear Seekingjoy,<BR> I'm kind of in the same boat as you. My husband first decided to separate on April 3rd but didn't physically leave our home until July 15th of this year. I have three children (20,18,15) who are also very angry at their father. My husband has been having a mid-life crisis for about 4 years now since he was 41. He is being treated for depression too. Basically, he was living a single life while being married. I don't believe there was another woman involved at least no word of it has reached my ears as of yet. He insists there isn't any other woman. He has lacked any desire for sex for about 2 years.<BR> Initially my husband was very hostile to me as well when he was first planning his leaving. Now the hostility has seemed to vanished. He isn't verbally abusive to me anymore (we have had three counseling sessions together.......we first started two years ago, then he stopped going. We just restarted counseling at the end of July). So, we are in the early stages as well. I've been married for 22 years. If you think the marriage is something you want to save, continue the counseling. I have asked my counselor to use more "cognitive therapy" with us. Research this impressive form of psychotherapy. I worked well at our last session. Dr. Aaron Beck is the founder and it has impressive results. There are many books out there on this topic. It's been around for 40 years now. Educate yourself and see if you think this will help your situation. I wish you luck!<P>Donna

Donna - THANKS I found a wealth of information on Cognitive Therapy - not sure the counselor that is working with my H will have any clue what it is - he's actually our pastor, so I'm not sure he has any training in that - but I'll see if I can't educate him a bit - lol<P>I mentioned it to my counselor after I'd seen a couple of sites (I was supposed to call him today). He said he felt that cognitive therapy would probably work well for my H - but still doesn't believe the problems that we have will be solved. At this point I'm in agreement with that. I believe there is far more to this than just him dealing with anger related to our marriage. I believe he's got a lot of anger stored inside that has nothing to do with me or our children.<P>Thanks again for the great clue!!! <P>BTW - counselor confirmed that he had been using cognitive therapy with me, essentially asking me what would happen if I reacted differently (MB principles) and encouraging me to act/think on a different level. It's been helping - I'm just feeling insecure through all of this. Need to think about that differently too... <p>[This message has been edited by seekingjoy (edited August 29, 2001).]

SJ and H99,<BR>I'm also grappling with feeling mean when I set boundaries. My counsellor explained to me the difference between real guilt and false guilt yesterday. Her example was lying. If she has a core belief that lying is bad and she makes every effort to tell the truth, any guilt she feels as a result of lying is real guilt. On the other hand, let's say her H accuses her of lying. Initially, she knows that she hasn't lied. She knows that the accusation is unwarranted. Then she begins to question herself. Was she less than honest after all? Why would her H accuse her of lying unless he thought it was true? If she believes the accusation, and then feels guilty, she would be experiencing false guilt. She would be feeling guilty for something she didn't do. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'll be the first generation in more than seven generations that didn't make the 50th Anniversary - and I barely even made 11!!! There is something REALLY sad about that!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>SJ, you're revealing a deep seated core belief that marriage should last. And of course it should last! I believe it should last too, and for a long time, "no matter what" was silently at the end of that sentence. The advice I got from my counsellor seems pertinent to you too. You believe marriage should last. It's an admirable quality, and bibically sound. You have the unfortunate reality of a marriage which is intolerable (I see it as intolerable anyway, and you have very good reasons for viewing it as intolerable too). I also have resisted "giving up" on my marriage, which I find intolerable. I've tried very hard to make a real marriage out of my pseudo marriage. It requires participation from my H which is not forthcoming, and there doesn't seem to be a dern thing I can do about it. I have revised my standard for marriage. I won't stay married "no matter what." Even the Bible allows for divorce when the unbeliever is the one who leaves. In my case, I'm the believer and I'll probably be the one who leaves. I'm not exactly a bible thumper myself (hope that doesn't offend; my intent is to describe a person who has a fundamental interpretation of the bible). In any case, the counsellor warned of guilt feelings. Some of the guilt will be false (such as comments your H made to the children in church). Your core belief that marriage should last, however, is something that will conflict with your decision to divorce. <P>She also gave me some great insight on dealing with guilt as it relates to divorcing someone who needs some professional mental health services. Let me know if you want to hear about that part too. I was totally exhausted after that session! too much information!

lh - I can understand the exhaustion - I feel that way after most counseling sessions. Actually - there are some times when I feel elated - like I've been given a new lease on life. But mostly I just feel tired.<P>Emotional concepts are so intense.<P>Yes - I want to hear more! Thanks for the offer.<P>Jan

Yes lonesome heart, I'd like to hear more too.<BR>

SJ, my longwinded answer is on the post you addressed to me.