Tell me more about the counseling session - that made a lot of sense to me. <P>

Me too. Yes, please lonesome heart, tell us more.

Look out, this could get long! As a point of reference, my last counselling session was about guilt -- true guilt and false guilt. I replied to SJ's thread "counselling, what's the point" and described what my counsellor said about guilt as it relates to core beliefs. <P>Well, she asked me what else I might feel guilty about if I pursue a path toward divorce. Just a few minutes prior to that I had described a trip H and I took recently and how badly it went. C said she's no doctor, but my description of H sounds like someone who's clinically depressed. I concur, but my H adamantly refuses to seek help. <P>So, we took another journey into my core beliefs. Weddings vows include "for better, for worse, in sickness and in health." I said I would probably feel guilty for leaving the marriage because my H has a mental condition that needs help. If the mental condition were, say, a broken arm, I would be there for him and help him recover. So, my core belief is to care for and be loyal to loved ones in their time of need. <P>Taking the broken arm example, C asked, what if H's recovery included an instruction from the doctor to keep it elevated and take pills every 6 hours. And what if you see him ignoring the doctor's advice completely? I said I'd probably feel differently. I would feel conflict. H's biggest complaint about me is how controlling I am. He would be putting me in a position to either say nothing, which would mean he doesn't elevate the arm and doesn't take the pills. Or, I could take on the parent role, be bossy, and insist that he follow instructions. The third, and obvious, option would be for him to take responsibility for his own well being and choose of his own free will to get better. The third option is what's chronically missing!<P>If I were to feel guilty for the instructions not being followed, I would be feeling guilty for something I didn't do. It would be false guilt. Real guilt would be a choice I had made that contradicted my own core belief, such as refusing to get his prescription filled when H is unable to drive. <P>C said that even in the mental health community, treatments CANNOT be administered against a patient's will unless he is a threat to himself or others. A level of responsibility rests with the patient. It happens with mentally ill homeless people all the time. A facility cannot hold a patient against his will, even if that patient is schizophrenic, bipolar, dyslexic, and depressed all at the same time. That person must be willing to accept help in order to receive help. My H needs help, and he refuses. I believe he's clinically depressed, and I believe he has post traumatic stress from his vietnam days. He's never been treated. <P>So, for me to feel guilty about leaving a H who is mentally ill would be false guilt. If I were to feel guilt about his absence of treatment, I would be feeling guilty for someone else's choice. I've tried Plan A. I love the MB principles, but honestly and truly I believe my MB efforts fall short when it comes to fixing my marriage. MB principles are modelled on other types of problems, but I've applied them as well as I could. The part where my spouse has no choice but to change if I change, well, my H seems impervious! I think his depression has grown stronger, perhaps, but the premise that Plan A brings about POSITIVE changes is woefully absent. In my case, Plan A is enabling my H to continue in his dysfunctional state. He's a non-participant in this marriage, and MB principles require two participants from each marriage. While his behavior may be the result of a mental malady, it doesn't change my reality that I am living in a verbally and emotionally abusive relationship. The only person I can control is myself. <P>I have worked hard over the last year to be a better person. I had a lot of anger, bitterness, and resentment to dispense. I was grieving for a lost marriage. I have reached a level of acceptance now. I accept him as he is. Now he'll need to accept that I cannot live under these conditions. He won't want me to leave, he'll tell me I'm all he has, and I will probably feel guilty. Then I'll need to remind myself of the difference between real guilt and false guilt, and continue on my path that leads away from him. I haven't actually said any of this to him yet. My, aren't I brave! Hope this helps, SJ and Ava.

Thanks, lonesome heart. That makes a lot of sense to me. Your husband seems totally unwilling to accept the fact that he needs help and/or to receive it. My husband is a bit different in that he seems to do only the bare minimum and even then he seems to do it inconsistently. He is not abusive but also is not a participant in the marriage. He is emotionally repressed and there is no real open dialogue between us. My attempts at getting at some sort of emotional and/or physical intimacy are always such a chore and never really result in any substantial participation by my husband. He is currently taking meds for depression but does not take them consistently. He also works with a therapist once a week but the therapist agrees that the work is very slow as he just can't seem to get in touch with those parts of himself that are essential to reaching true intimacy. There are other areas in his life as an individual and as my husband for which he does not take responsibility for his own well being; the third option which is also chronically missing. I have gotten so frustrated living with him that I got an apartment several months ago. Now I'm contemplating if and when I might be able to live with him again or continue on toward divorce. I think like you, my core beliefs are getting in the way of taking that road. <P>We have gone to a divorce mediator already, and he seemed okay with the idea that we could very possibly be filing for divorce. He says he doesn't want it but there is no emotion behind his words, he is so detached. It makes me think even more that this is something that he cannot help and that only time and effort will bring about the changes that he needs to make. But I don't think his effort as strong, consistent or determined as it needs to be and therefore is not enough.<P>So that's my dilemma. Is it enough or not? Am I being disloyal or abandoning him while he is trying even if the effort seems half-hearted to me? Maybe it's all he can muster at the moment. If you have any further comments, I'd appreciate hearing them. I know that only I can decide what is right for me to do but sometimes these conflicts get in the way and I need all the logic I can get to make some sense out of it all.<BR>

There was one more thing from my session that I didn't mention yet (it was jam packed that day!). The other topic was enabling. When the H needs help, denies the problems, and refuses to seek help, that H is dependent on someone else to get from day to day. Guess who that someone else is! From day one of our marriage, I shouldered responsibilties because I'm a responsible person. H wanted nothing to do with the checkbook, so I took care of it. Anything and everything that NEEDS to be done gets done by me, unless it's within H's comfort zone (and let me tell you it's a pretty small scope!). Not only do I need to learn the distinction between real guilt and false guilt, I also need to look at the dynamics of this relationship. C didn't come right out and say it (that's my part), but she suggested that I consider the possibility that I am enabling my H's dysfunctional behavior. I knew that already, of course, but seeing it and accepting it in my heart as the truth are not always the same thing. <P>Can I graduate to the rewards class now?

Ava, <BR>One more thing... withholding participation in a relationship can be a form of emotional abuse. I'd be curious to know if you feel the same way about your relationship after reading a book by Patricia Evans. My disposable income for books is like zero, but I scraped up $11 for her first book on verbal abuse and it's the best money I've spent all year. Then I scraped up another $11 to buy her Survivors Speak Out book. If your H isn't a participant, don't be so sure that abuse is absent. Unfortunately, her descriptions fit my marriage like a glove, and her insights have allowed me to really take a good look at what I have. I let go of my focus on what I wanted but didn't have. I let go of the blame, the anger, and the resentment associated with my inability to achieve what I want in this marriage. I moved from denying the truth to seeing it, and then from seeing it to accepting it. Now I just gotta DO something about it! Some prayers for courage are greatly appreciated.

Lonesome heart, I think you could probably be right. I recognize a lot of the non-participation as passive-aggressive behavior. And by not taking action or participating in the relationship himself, he is free to criticize my attempts while seemingly remaining blameless himself. I should probably also mention that I believe that he is an alcoholic although he is in denial. He doesn't drink everyday and can in fact go weeks and even months before it begins to pick up speed, but historically his excessive drinking will eventually culminate in an 'incident' at which point he swears to do something about it but never does. He has done only the bare minimum to keep me in the relationship. Now that I have moved out, I think his incentive to do even that may have actually lessened.<P>I have always felt that the emotional and physical neglect, the absence of a marital relationship, has been a form of abuse; a very passive-aggressive form but abuse none-the-less. It feels like abuse to be denied the companionship of your spouse when the source of that denial is your spouse himself. Don't people get to sue for damages if someone's negligence causes one spouse to not be able to meet the needs of another? Having gone without that companionship for so long, I can see how this could be considered an injustice and worthy of compensatory damages.<BR>

You're describing things very familiar to me Ava, with the exception of drinking. A beer after mowing the lawn and that's about all he consumes. I do see a recent change in his behavior of late though that disturbs me. He's watching sports! OMG! He never used to do that. <P>You're right though about the damage resulting from a loss of companionship. I was in very bad shape there for a while. Our finances are the worst of all, which of course is all my fault. But that's a whole other topic. Restoring my own sense of self worth, self confidence and self esteem are my top priorities these days. It's unbelievable how controlling passive behavior can be. It undermined my entire thought process.

Wow!!! Nice ladies - thanks for all the info - I'm keeping it up - but my server won't let me stay on long - so I'll come back and comment later. This looks good - I'm reading.<P>Jan

My H is always angry, or getting ready to be angry, or pouting, getting ready to pout....<P><BR>Something really weird going on: I'm waking up in the middle of the night<P>The first time, he was drawing circles on my arms and the next day he comments on how restless I was the night before, and how every time he touched me, I jerked away.<P>Last night, I wake up and I'm touching him on the face, elbow...<P>Too strange - I never wake up in the middle of the night. Does anyone but me think that he is doing this?? on purpose?? Like sleep deprivation???<P>I'm going crazy - and that's the COVERT sort of thing he has always done, nothing in your face, something snide that he can look innocent for and deny doing.<P>Anne

Sleep deprivation can be debilitating. I agree with you 100% that doing things which are innocent-looking on the surface can be material for making us look unreasonable, nuts, or like the bad guy. <P>I particularly like Patricia Evan's example of the 11-year-old girl who knew what the "invisible dagger" is. The girl said her dad would call her his little china doll in front of other people. The other people would think it was such a sweet term of endearment. In reality, the girl knew and the father knew that he was referring to a story where a china doll was really a murderer and would roam around the countryside killing people. I think this example is especially good in describing how insidious verbal and emotional abuse can be.