Ok I am at a fork in the road. Some here will not be happy with this current line of idiocy but...<P>Yesterday Amanda called me and told me she wanted a divorce from her new H. ??? She said she did not feel with him like she did with me. I asked why she was telling me this. She said she needed advice on what to do since I was the one that did our divorce. I told her that she had no problem figuring out how to get married and if she really didn't want to be married then should would figure that out too.<P>The conversation went on longer than it should have and she informed me that she wanted to be with me. She stated that she rushed into something she shouldn't have and wants me to give her another chance. I of course informed her that presently she is still married and that even if she wasn't that I could only offer friendship right now.<P>So there's the fork...do I continue on my 'Plan B' of minimized contact and no phone calls and let her suffer in the wind. Making all of her own decisions and mistakes. Or do I assist her in her quest. Tell her the info she requests etc. And possibly, I say possibly, rebuild a little of the old feelings. Problem with the first is it has been and is really hard for me, it is not getting easier. Plus if she goes awry again I may feel responsible. (Yes, even though I know it wouldn't be my doing) Problem with the second is while it may bring us closer together it will certainly open me up for more injuries should she waffle again.<P>Which one is worth the risk? I am currently implementing the first although it is very difficult, but I must admit to researching a few things in her behalf but not letting her know it. I mean I haven't given her any info.<P>Would this be an up or down on the roller coaster? I must admit that even after the divorce with the possibility of me finding someone else and her finding someone else that Amanda was the only face I saw in the rocking chair beside me when I am old and gray. May change eventually, but it hasn't yet. Advice or opinions would really be appreciated.

Hi Paul...<P>Yes, quite a dilemma. I think in your heart you know what to do... but your emotions are getting the best of you. What do you feel the LORD is telling you to do for <BR>a) yourself<BR>b) your wife<P>Please think this through carefully. <P>Take care!<P>------------------<BR><I>"You will deceive yourself into believing that if people, circumstances, and events had been different, your pain would not exist...Your pain is the concrete way in which you participate in the pain of humanity."</I> <BR>~ Henri Nouwen ~

Hi Paul,<P>Wow, I'll bet that knocked your socks off! What to do??? Hmmmmm.<P>Well, that depends if you want her back again or not. If you don't then do nothing but Plan B, and BTW Plan B should mean NO CONTACT...and if she phones you that is what you have to remember.<P>If you do want her, then it's Plan A time again, be nice, fulfill her needs etc. But I would advise against giving her ANY help at all if she wants to divorce. It's just heading for trouble...in the future she might blame you. If it's Plan A, let her call you and vent, but tell her that you really can't assist her in ending her (VERY NEW) marriage, but you love her and will support her in any decisions she might make. And then AFTER she is divorced again, you will pursue a relationship AND not before, because you are an honorable soul (oh oh better not say that, she might see it as a dig at her!!!).<P>Hope this helps a little.<P>

{{{{{{{{{{Paul}}}}}}}}}}<P>This is the upside down, sideways part of the rollercoaster. <P>Paul, you are my friend so I am going to tell you the truth but I doubt if you will like to hear it. When you were married to your XW, so hurt you very badly, behaved very badly, had her OM and you on the side, could not make a commitment to you, and eventually WENT THROUGH WITH A DIVORCE. (Sorry, but you deserve to hear it like it really is.)<P>Now, she is married TO ANOTHER MAN, she is hurting him, she is behaving badly, she is trying to get her OM and you on the side, and she will not make a commitment to either one of you, and says she wants a divorce from HIM!! Paul, my friend, I hate to have to tell you this, because I know that you love this woman with your whole heart, faithfully and truly, BUT NOTHING HAS CHANGED. <P>If you help her get a divorce or annulment (or whatever is appropriate here) from her current H, then she will still continue to hurt the one she is with by thinking only of herself, behave badly (unfaithfully, selfishly), try to have her cake and eat it too, not make a firm, steadfast, solid commitment to either one of you, and play the divorce card. Paul, do you want this to end? Do you want a loving and faithful wife is is unselfish, sexy, and commited to you and only you? THEN THERE NEED TO BE DRASTIC CHANGES!!!!<P>Can you see what I'm talking about? You two are continuing to do the same old dance!! Stop dancing with her. If she did not love her current H (the OM) and if she did not want to get married and if she was confused or uncertain, THEN SHE HAD A DUTY TO STOP THE WEDDING!! If she loved you and did not want to divorce you and if she was confused or uncertain, THEN SHE HAD A DUTY TO STOP THE DIVORCE!! <P>Paul, you are a kind, godly, loving, faithful man who deserves to be loved--don't misunderstand what I'm saying here--but if you are to be properly loved by Amanda, like a wife should love a husband, she would have to go through some drastic and extremely serious character changes. The kind of changes that can only be accomplished through intense therapy. Has she been in intense personal therapy to understand why she keeps stringing men along? Has she seen a counselor and admitted what her part was in this whole affair and divorce? Paul, you know the answers as well as I do. NO. So she has not changed and she will not change. <P>You are clinging to your illusions and rekindling your hopes, and I am glad that you are such a hopeful, optimistic, super guy. But if she wants to divorce her current husband (and wreck his life) and be with you, don't get in the middle of it. Don't fall for this trap!! If she really wants this MAKE HER DO ALL THE HARD WORK HERSELF. Make her find her own attorney. Make her go through the suffering and inconvenience. Make her PROVE to you that she has changed, is mentally healthy, and able to commit to you. Until she has done ALL OF THAT, hold your ground and PLAN B.<P>Now, here is a box of kleenex, my friend. I know you don't want to hear that, and I wanted to say it even less. I am so sorry. {{{{{Paul}}}}}<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

OvrCs: I've somewhat lost faith as of late. I'm fighting to gain my place back with the Lord. It has been uphill. I'm having problems letting him take care of things. Therefore I honestly don't 'know' what to do, I know what I want to do, just not what I should do.<P>Nina too: I don't know if I want her back or not, I don't know if I can take that chance. I may want the person I married back but do I want the person she is now back. That's the hard part. I can't do a complete Plan B, i have to drop the kids off and pick them up every day at her house. kind of limits my Plan B ability. So far I have managed not to say anything about her divorce decision. Can you feel the anxiety building? <P>CJ: Errrr, gulp. Swallowing lump there. Bwaaaahhhaaaaa!!!! Ok, I'll quit throwing my fit now. I know what you are saying to be right. I am fighting down the emotional upsurge. I am suppressing the urge to help. I do see your points and I'm struggling with the 'I don't care' attitude. Because I do care. And I just can't believe that the Lord would continue to put me through this if there wasn't a reason. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So she has not changed and she will not change. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Owwwwwwww!!!! Do you really think so? If that be true then I might as well walk away and not look back. I think that would be very difficult. As always though, do not worry about hurting my feelings or sounding harsh, sometimes the only way through to someone hysterical or just plain stupid(me) is a good smack!

Paul:<P>Look at what Amanda is doing to her husband. And look at what she did to her ex-husband. It's pretty similar.<P>You need to stay in a Plan B mode. If she's unhappy and wants to divorce---fine. But I cannot see any chance of reconciliation until she changes her behavior drastically, and commits to some long-term consistant changes (I'd say 6 months minimum). And you shouldn't be in the picture for that time---at all!!!<P>She had a chance at reconciliation after she became pregnant, and you landed here. She blew it. She had another chance after you divorced her (and she told me that she'd commit to it), and she blew it. I don't see any indication that it would be different this time.<P>I know it's hard, and I do know that you love her very much. But sometimes you have to show that love by letting the other person grow up. You need to maintain a hands-off approach to this situation.

Well, since GOD hits me on the head with a fry pan, I figure a friend would me a good hard smack when I needed it. <P>I hate sounding harsh--I worry that I come across as judgemental. Heck, the funny thing is, I do the exact same thing and don't listen to my own advice, so who am I to talk? But one thing I have learned is to listen to the thoughts of others a little, because sometimes other people can see the truth when I can't see the forest for the trees because I'm too close to it. <P>I'm right there with you. Some days I feel so mad and hurt, I just feel like having a little fit and saying over and over, "I don't care! Fine! Be that way!" But of course, the truth is, I DO care--a lot!! Other days, I feel so smooshy and hopeful that I'm a wreck because "I love him and that's all that counts". You know what I mean. It makes my stomach queasy--all this up and down. <P>Anyway, I have a thought why God may be doing this "to you." Just so you know, I think all things work together for good for those who love God, BUT sometimes He allows the devil to get in there and mess things up. So, I don't think very much of this is God's doing--He just didn't stop it. <P>I'll write more tonight when I'm at home, but for now, I must find a debit for this credit!! <P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Paul,<P>You said in response to CJ: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I do see your points and I'm struggling with the 'I don't care' attitude. Because I do care. And I just can't believe that the Lord would continue to put me through this if there wasn't a reason. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>First, not helping with the divorce and not taking her back doesn't mean you don't care. They mean you cannot help her no matter how much you care.<P>Second, has it occurred to you that the Lord is putting you through this so that YOU may learn where HIS province is and where yours is. You cannot help Amanda. You tried, as K pointed out. <P>You accepted another man's child, you accepted her back time after time, year after year. <B>Did you help her? </B> The answer is no, you did not. She has now married another man and is treating him just as she did you. Further you have the children for a reason. She isn't much of a Mother.<P>You are trying to do what God must do; change Amanda. You are not in HIS league my friend.<P>It seems to me you that one of the lessons you should be learning is that you should be doing what you CAN do. Be a good father to those children and leave Amanda to God.<P>I hope this is of some help to you.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<I>Quickly, K, I promise - I did, by the way, write my next-to-the-last post to you on my thread in EN - I gotta say one last helpful thing to Paul, okay? </I><P>Paul,<P>RUN as fast and as far away from Amanda as you can get right now. HOW DARE SHE do this to you!!! Your precious heart is being torn to shreds and she is so very selfish and self-centered and ... and... oh, I'm so angry with her right now.<P>Let her be. Let her get her divorce, and as K said, PROVE her love to you for six months or a year... she's been tugging at your heartstrings for the last ... how long?... too long, my friend... toooooooo long.<P>Paul, I am going to be trying to quit hanging out here (cold turkey, wish me luck)... so far the weaning thing isn't working too well... but I am on here less than I used to be... but I digress ... point is, I will be thinking of you... and will check back from time to time to see how you're doing.<P>I wish you peace, love, and healing.<P>Sheryl<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited August 30, 2001).]

Paul,<P>What a surprise - not! I am truly sorry that Amanda continues to make such horrible mistakes. Truly, I am. However, God is allowing these things to happen because BOTH you and Amanda need to learn some things. <P>You are NOT Amanda's rescuer! You are NOT responsible for her actions, her choices or the outcomes of her choices. You are a co-dependent, my friend. You need to learn to live and let live. Be responsible for Paul, because truly, that is ALL you can be responsible for.<P>If Amanda is going to EVER learn, then it has to be HER learning. If she is unhappy, let her figure out how to get herself out of this. In my heart, I am NOT convinced that she is unhappy with her new H as much as she is unhappy that you are Plan Bing her, and that means that the triangle has ended. I do not believe that she is in-love with either you or her new H, but more "in-love" with the feelings she gets from the triangle - having 2 men chasing after her.<P>Years ago, I worked with a doctor who had an affair with a nurse at the hospital I worked in. This affair lasted 5 - 6 years, with the doctor waffling back and forth between his thenW and his OW. He could never break off the relationship with either one - claiming that he loved them both and couldn't decide between them. His actions of stringing them both along, as well as their actions of being willing to "stay in the game" for so long, ended up emotionally destoying these 2 women. After about 5 - 6 years of this, the doctor eventually found yet another woman that he fell in love with. He divorced his wife, ended the relationhsip with the first OW and then married the second OW. They have been married about 10 years, now. Won't go into the details of what happened to the first 2 women, but they were emotionally destroyed, because each believed the doctor was really in love with them, even though he never fully commited to either one of them.<P>My point is this: Amanda is not showing herself commited to you NOR her new H. She is showing herself as immature, impetuous, irresponsible and selfish. She is making impetuous decisions and certainly not thinking through any consequence to any of her actions. Does this remind you in any way at all of Dr Harley's analogy of the WS as an ADDICT???? She is addicted to the high of feeling "in-love"!<P>Even if Amanda divorces her new H, does she show you ANY signs of WILLINGNESS and ABILITY to be a partner in a fully commited and mature relationship??? I certainly do NOT think so.<P>My advice is to continue Plan B. Let Amanda solve her own problems, for once. Quit rescuing her. It doesn't help her in the long run. Tough love is what is needed, so that she might grow and learn to be more responsible and thoughtful. Even if Amanda divorces her H, Paul, she is NOT ready to be in a relationship with you or anyone else right now. You both need to focus on PERSONAL recovery and growth, so that you may be a better partner in the future, to each other or to another.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{Paul}}}}}}}}}}<P>Desiree<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Veterans unite...<P>Paul...<BR>...my dearest Paul...<P>We humans have to make judgement calls... even though we are ill-equipped... and often lacking in sufficient understanding.<P>Only God really knows what is in Amanda's heart...<P>You must try and make that judgment call... now... too!<P>The majority of the veterans that have just repsonded to you, are not God...<BR>...but by the grace of God... they are communicating with you.<BR>...listen to them!<BR>...Plan B is OK! (she isn't near bottom)<P>Shake the dust off...<BR>...and if she changes...(great)... learn not to be hard-hearted.<BR>...and if she doesn't... shake the dust off... and continue on a difficult journey (with no hatred in your heart)... to serve God by loving all your kids... and leaving "pray" in your wake to thier mother!<P>Your Brother,<P>Jim

Hi Paul,<BR>I'm not sure if I've ever responded to one of your posts, although I've read some of them. All the great replies tell a great deal about what you've been through. Although my situation is different, I can honestly see now that it was a huge mistake for me to shield my H from the consequences of his own actions. My efforts were unacknowledged, and when problems set in, everything was all my fault! It may seem heartless, but you're not doing Amanda any favors by shouldering responsibilities that belong to her. Take it from someone who made that mistake repeatedly for 14 years!<P>Rather than thinking of your dilemma as a fork in the road, may I suggest that you think of Amanda's suggestion as the equivalent of careening through a guard rail at high speed and landing in a ditch? If you're feeling guilty for declining her request for help, perhaps my replies to seekingjoy's threads this week in this forum might help. My counsellor spent the last session teaching me about the difference between real guilt and false guilt. Maybe it'll help you too.

Paul,<P>I agree compltely with K, JL, Sheryl, Desiree, CJ and the others...<P>Here's my spin...<P>Through all of this past 3 years somehow your kindhearted forgiving nature has enabled Amanda not to own her responcibilities and commitments...It's time for her to grow up!<P>If you are going to plan-b then do it to the letter...I mean everything involved...This will preserve what love you do have and make her do the footwork she needs to do...I know it is a hard-[censored] pill to swallow but you HAVE to live your life in the here and now...Hang on to the dream but don't obsess on it...God has a plan and his time isn't ours...<P>Write a plan-b letter explaining all this with any disrespectful judgements or selfish demands...See how she reacts...I mean this is very immature behavior on her part and she needs to grow up...<P>You know the path of the righteous is narrow and impossible to stay on but I think you can find your way back to it...<P>Reread all these posts again and pray...<P>Love You,<BR>Bill<P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

Normally I respond to each individually but this I do not want to drag this post out and "hog" the time here. I did want to write and say that I read everyone's reply and appreciate the words of encouragement, advice, hand-slapping, reprimanding, love, and caring. It's all mixed in there. <P>I have traveled this road for what seems like forever even though I know it hasn't been as long as some. Most of the time I feel like I've traveled it alone, till I come back here or sit my hiney in my pew. Then I remember my best friend and all the friends I have here. Both have helped to keep me straight. Thanks.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Paul<P>It's a consensus...... Plan B!<P>You can do this. It is what is best, and you know it. <P>Prayers for Paul! ^^Paul^^<P>TnT