As a WS I have been on the high of the relationship..and I have been on the depressed side of the No contact..and even though I am getting divorced (he filed) I learned alot..<BR>about myself, relationships, what I want and need in a relationship to be happy, and what I will and won't put up with anymore in a relationship..how I expect to be treated by another person..things I SHOULD have learned as a child..but didn't..yes, you could say that I had been acting like a selfish child..or some may say I was reliving my childhood..but..I didn't have a childhood..I didn't have the teen years to grow up and experience dating..and first loves..and such..I went from toddler to adult in a matter of moments..when my father first laid his hands on me to abuse me..sexually..with out all the growing up years in between..<BR>I was forced into what I would call the OW roll in my parents marriage..<P>as I started dealing w/ my past..and facing the hurts of the abuse..I was given a freedom..for the first time in my life I was learning what LOVE was supposed to be like..it's not supposed to be a parent/child relationship in a marriage..where one controls the other --<BR>it is supposed to be special..your to be helpmates to each other..Spiritually, emotionally, physically, and mentally..<BR>something that even at 36 years old I'd never had..not even during two marriages..I didn't know what it could be like..nor what it should be like..I was "clueless" when it came to knowing what true love was..as well as what true love wasn't..and OM taught me those things..he loved me unconditionally..we talked about my past relationships with other men..and yet..he didn't make me feel like I should be ashamed or feel guilty about them..because they happened b4 him..he didn't put me down for not wanting to have sex..he didn't throw in my face that "You had sex w/ so and so" before, why not me now??" (things my stbx did b4 we married)<BR>he never manipulated me..and he even stepped aside so that stbxh and I could go to counseling and give stbxh and I the opportunity to work on our marriage..but even with that..it still didn't work out..there were to many things said in hurt, and anger..to many past resentments built up over many years..to many broken promises..and when stbx still couldn't<BR>promise me something and actually do it..it showed me he has no respect for me as a person...and I deserve to be treated w/ respect..as does everyone..was I wrong in having the affair..yes, I was..was I wrong in being friends w/ the OM..<BR>No, I wasn't..there is nothing wrong w/ men and women being friends..even if they are married to other people. But, yes, there is a line that can be crossed..that shouldn't be..<BR>you should be bestfriends with your spouse..they should be someone you can talk to about ANYTHING..and not fear it being thrown back in your face a month, a year, five years later..they should be there when you are hurting to comfort you, and just hold you..and NOT expect you to have sex with them during that time..and not use that time to fondle your body..when you are hurting about something..<P>I didn't just have an affair, during that time I learned alot about myself..I grew up ALOT emotionally..and I am believe it or not..more prepared to have a healthy relationship than I was when I got married ten years ago..<P>The really sad thing is..these were issues I was working on<BR>fourteen years ago when I met my h..I was in counseling then..and was just beginning to hit the core issues of the past that I have been facing and dealing w/ the past three years..and had I been able to continue in counseling then..<BR>and not had him there telling me I should just forget it..it's the past..it doesn't effect who you are now..it happened so many years ago..get over it already..had I been stronger and more emotionally mature..I wouldn't have had to deal with it now..I would have been more prepared for marriage..and relationships in general..and I would have been strong enough to tell him good-bye years ago..before we<BR>got married..and he wouldn't have been able to use the<BR>"but your only losing me, I am losing both you and your daughter..and I AM the only father she's known..and how can you be so mean to me..and to her..how can you just rip her away from me like that, how can you do that her?? how can you hurt your daughter like that??" those things would not have made me stay..I would have been strong enough to know that He would be okay...and my daughter would be okay..and I would be happier..but, I wasn't prepared to face those things back then..it was easier to just give in and please everyone else..and not hurt anyone..except me..I was used to hurting..and I hated to hurt anyone..<P>Do I blame him for that? yes, and no..mostly I am responsible because I should have continued in counseling..<BR>I was growing then, and just beginning to heal, and learning things about myself that I should have felt was more important than being in a relationship..and yes, because he was manipulating..and controlling..and using a mothers love for their child against her..<P>But..alas..I didn't just have an affair..I used that time to heal..and grow..and learn more about myself and have grown closer to God..and I have also learned alot from this site..about what my emotional needs are..and WHAT they are..and I've learned that many people truly do love their spouses..with every ounce of their being..and I envy that..because it's something I have never had in a marriage..<P>I have also learned that not everyone wants to face their own shortcomings..and internal hurts and pains..they want to sweep them under the rug as if they never happened..but I know that our past..has helped us learn to deal with the issues we face today..in either healthy or unhealthy ways..<BR>and I am tired of pushing my past under the rug as if it didn't exist..because I wouldn't be who I am now..had I not lived through what I have..and for the first time ever in my <BR>life..I can honestly say...I like myself...I like who I am..<BR>I like who I have become..I am happier now than I have ever been..and most importantly...I have peace with God..<P>And I pray that your W/S can learn even a small amount of things that I have learned in the past three years..<P>And I'd like to thank everyone who has been here for showing me..what real love should be like..

It is good that you have learned so much about yourself and what you want. I don't think you should push your past unser the rug, I feel it is important to acknowledge the past understand what happened, and then move forward, know one should be punished for the past. I also don't think the past is an excuse to justify what we do now. I am sorry you where so hurt in the past, those things should have never happened to you, but it doesn't give anyone the right to hurt others, now that you see what happened and admit wrong doing, I hope you are well on your road to healing.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jabber:<BR>I also don't think the past is an excuse to justify what we do now. I am sorry you where so hurt in the past, those things should have never happened to you, but it doesn't give anyone the right to hurt others, now that you see what happened and admit wrong doing, I hope you are well on your road to healing.<BR>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't try and use it to justify or excuse my actions..but<BR>it does, for me, help to understand many of the choices and <BR>decisions I have made over the years..and your right.<BR>it is no reason to hurt others..<P>But, UNLESS one heals from their past hurts..they will hurt others..whether it is intentional or not..just as if one is beaten up and constantly put down by parents..they learn that they aren't good enough..it damages their soul..and they tend to be judgemental and critical of others.<P>Just as an affair that a spouse had..makes "some" stop and rethink things about themselves..their own core beliefs..<BR>but not everyone takes the time to look within themselves..<BR> what could I have done differently, what was missing<BR>in this relationship that this person felt they needed to go elsewhere? Why couldn't they come talk to me about what they were feeling inside? why did they feel they needed to go else where?? In some cases..NOT ALL..it's because the spouse<BR>was unavailable..be it emotionally unavailable..or physically unavailable..is that always the case...NO..but it does make some ppl stop and ask themselves those questions..<BR>and so they make changes within themselves..trying to save their marriages..does it cause the betrayed spouse be less trusting? yes, it does..and if they don't look within themselves..they will remain untrusting..Why? because they have been hurt to the core..they have had their soul damaged by the rejection..and if they don't face that hurt..they will find it harder to trust others in the future..and it will cause problems in future relationships..WHY? because they won't trust other people..not necessarily because this person has done anything to make them NOT trust them..but because of their past hurts..they become insecure..how do I know this person won't leave me too??? they fear abandonment..rejection..<P>Just as in my case..my stbx's job..took him away from home..<BR>I asked him many times to look for another job that would<BR>allow him to be home..he promised he would look after this job..and after that job..but he didn't..I began to wonder what was wrong with ME that he didn't want to be here..that HE chose to stay away..my first husband..his job took him away..he really had no control over it because he was military..but he did have a choice to take me with him..or not..he chose to go alone..what made him not want me to go with him?? What was it about ME that made these men that said they loved me..not want to be with me??? Yet, when they would come home for a few days..they wanted to have sex..<BR>they didn't want me around any other time..so why "just" to meet their sexual needs?? What was wrong with ME??? Was I only good for sex?? Was that the only reason they loved me??<BR>was that the only reason they wanted to be married so they could have sex when they wanted it??? Just as when I was a child..my dad's job took him away from home for a few months at time..and when he was home..the sexual abuse would start again every time he was home..then he'd leave..then back..and gone again..so it triggered these same intense emotions..that I was ONLY good for one thing..sexual pleasure..I felt like a toy..only to played with at their convience..so I had to look within myself to figure out..<BR>what is wrong with ME that they don't want to be around me,<BR>other than for sexual pleasure..was I boring? was I not smart enough? was I not this or that?? I took the same journey many B/S's take looking within themselves to figure out..WHY?? What is it about me that they would turn elsewhere, a job, alcohol, another person?? what is it about me that they wouldn't want to be around me??? It's the same HURT that a B/S spouse feels..when their spouse turns to another person..REJECTION..but, not sexual rejection..but rejection of me as a person..these men didn't want to know who I was, what I thought, what I cared about, what I feared, what I enjoyed doing, what my needs were, they didn't care if I was intelligent..and how do I know this?? because they never asked..and when I tried to share these things they would get up and leave the room, go get a beer, go do something else..anything else to be away from me..Rejection..not of what I could give them sexually..but of me personally..so what was wrong with ME??<P>So began my journey of internal healing..and I have found..that it wasn't just about me..it is also about them..and their own insecurities..things they don't want to look at within themselves..and it's not my responsibility to make them look..all I can do..is look within myself..and allow God to heal me..so that I am a better person now and in the future<P><p>[This message has been edited by ThornedRose (edited September 05, 2001).]

<BR>hmm<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by ThornedRose (edited September 05, 2001).]

I am a firm believer that we can only look at ourselves and we have no control over others, The pain we feel on the surface is only a sign of a deeper pain. It sounds like you are working so hard on healing and I truely admire you for that, You are right not everyone is capable of looking at thereself. I believe that to look deep into yourself and see your inermost pain is a gift from god. I was a BS and didn't deserve what happened, I also was Emotionaly abused as a child and have dealt with that pain and learned to forgive my abusers, they did the best they could with what they knew. I believe everything that happened in my life was neccessary for me to be the person I am today. I also believe that many are abused and in pain, but they don't have affairs. It seems that your affair was neccessary for you , it allowed you to grow, but I am sure it didn't start with that intention. It seems you were in a bad relationship and the affair helped you to leave it. I pray you continue working on yourself, forgive yourself and others and truely experience the healing that got is giving you. take care of yourself<P>

Thorned Rose,<P>your post sounded as though you have moved light years fast forward into your learning and healing. . . . your posts to others have been very insightful and looks towards self improvement and responsibility very seriously.<P>You have grown tremendously and hopefully you can continue on this path of spiritual enlightenment. Everyone makes mistakes, but they are the BEST opportunities for personal growth if one decides to learn from them, and you are doing great!<P>I have written to jabber in that i don't think his initial response was very supportive of your growth, but having been through something similar but not so drastic as yours, the growth and spiritual enlightment is trememdous.<P>Keep up the good work, and remember, counseling is not for sissies, its for hard working, conscientious people who seek to makes sense out of their pasts to prevent repeating the same mistakes, and from passing it on to our children. its for growth and goodness and ultimate happiness.<P>WIFTTy

dear thornedrose,<P>thank you for you honesty and your openess... i believe that we go through the experieinces in life to learn and teach others... so you are answering your calling... the is many women and even some men who have experieinced the abuse and mental torture that accompanies it... God is turning you into "pure gold" i know it is hard to put yourself out there and share like you did and i really appreciate it... <P>while i was not sexually abused, i have experienced abuse on all other levels and i know how it can wreck your self esteem and distort your thinking... <P>i love that you are real... stay that way...<P>god bless you<P>love kim...

TR,<P> I wanted to say that your post uses the words "I, me, myself, my, etc." about 3 times more than I've ever seen. Count em.<BR> Just an observation.<BR> It sounds like you've found many people to blame that's for sure. You've got a pocketful of justification too. You sound like you wish to be congratulated for your enlightenment so congratulations on finding those.<BR> BTW, your daughter won't always buy the crud you're peddalin on this board. She will likely have a heck of time with relationships with men though.<P> I'm terribly sorry for your molestation. There is likely much wisdom in getting over that and letting that be the past. A man needs an available wife and not one who is constantly recycling past hurts. You are wise if you are thinking that you should work through those hurts before getting in to yet another relationship. It sounds like you are looking for a way to stay a victim though and to do that you will need to find another victimizer before letting go. It can also be very hard to part with a reliable, dependable, and safe excuse. Look realistically at how you have let the hurt visited upon you hurt your daughter, other men, and yourself constantly. <BR> There are other people whose live touch yours. You are not the only player here. You might imagine that one of your Xhusbands might have a very different and valid perspective to share here.<BR> There isn't much to learn from being a WS other than a person can make poor and selfish choices(regardless of how their past changed their perspective) that have a devastating effect on people in their lives other than themselves.<BR> You could probably do 2 things to start real growth:<BR> 1. Tell your father and mother that it was evil what they did to you(if you haven't yet)and it hurt your heart and soul forever. It devastated your childhood and you can never get that back. Then release it.<BR> 2. Apologize to everyone you've hurt by holding on and letting a broken childhood become a broken adulthood (your choice) including Xspouses and daughter. <BR> Thanks for sharing. Please Get REAL.<P>Good Luck,<BR>DS<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DeeplySad:<BR>[b]TR, I wanted to say that your post uses the words "I, me, myself, my, etc." about 3 times more than I've ever seen. Count em. Just an observation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> -- Yes, I use me, myself, and I alot here...since this post was what "I" have learned..and not about what others have learned" I can't say what they may have learned so I can not speak for them--<BR>--- <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>It sounds like you've found many people to blame that's for sure. You've got a pocketful of justification too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Blame, yes, in some things I blame them..but if notice--<BR>I said..."mostly I am responsible because I should have continued in counseling" --I didn't not say they were completely responsible..I take responsiblity for my actions and the choices I have made..<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>--BTW, your daughter won't always buy the crud you're peddalin on this board. She will likely have a heck of time with relationships with men though.--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And it is my prayer that she doesn't have such a hard time with relationships with men..but I know that she will..and not all my credit..also to the credit of the relationship her and her father have..that is her most important first relationship with a man, which is one all little girls have..just as a boy's first most important relationship with a female is with their mother..<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR> --A man needs an available wife and not one who is constantly recycling past hurts.--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just as a woman needs a man who does not recycle his past hurts onto her--<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>--You are wise if you are thinking that you should work through those hurts before getting in to yet another relationship.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I am working on this, and have been<BR>for awhile..close to three years now..how about you?? how long have you been dealing with betrayal and hurt by someone you love??<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>--It sounds like you are looking for a way to stay a victim though and to do that you will need to find another victimizer before letting go. It can also be very hard to part with a reliable, dependable, and safe excuse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Stay a victim?? I choose not to stay a victim..which is WHY I have spent the better part of the past three years facing these pains..and working through them..and yes, feeling the pain all over again..so that I can heal..<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>--Look realistically at how you have let the hurt visited upon you hurt your daughter, other men, and yourself constantly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have..see above reply..<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <BR>--There are other people whose live touch yours. You are not the only player here. You might imagine that one of your Xhusbands might have a very different and valid perspective to share here. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> I never said I was the only player here..and I know they have their own perspective..<BR>and their own hurts to face and overcome..but I am not responsible to make them face those things..that is a choice they have to make on their own..I can't force them to do so..<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>-- There isn't much to learn from being a WS other than a person can make poor and selfish choices(regardless of how their past changed their perspective) that have a devastating effect on people in their lives other than themselves.--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are so wrong here...there is MUCH to learn as a WS about oneself..just as there is much for someone who is not a WS, or a BS to learn about themselves..EVERYONE has something they can learn about themselves..<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>--You could probably do 2 things to start real growth:<BR> 1. Tell your father and mother that it was evil what they did to you(if you haven't yet)and it hurt your heart and soul forever. It devastated your childhood and you can never get that back. Then release it.--<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have talked to my dad about it..and to my mother before she died. <P>If you've never made such a journey in your life Do Not tell me "just" release it..that would be like me telling you -- to "just" release the hurt you feel that your spouse cheated on you..let it go..get over it already--its the past..it doesn't effect you now..and won't effect your decisions in the future.. because that pain is REAL!!! and I can tell from your response that you are just now beginning to face it..but it's a long journey..are you strong enough to take it?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>--Apologize to everyone you've hurt by holding on and letting a broken childhood become a broken adulthood (your choice) including Xspouses and daughter. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have apologized to those I have hurt, including my ex-spouse and my stbxh--and others in my past that I have hurt because of<BR>choices I made..<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Please Get REAL.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am very real, and my hurts and pains are just as real as YOURS--I just choose to go back and face those hurts and pains, so that God can heal them from the inside..so that they aren't just scabbed over sores that will come back later in another relationship...<P><BR>I know what it feels like to be betrayed by someone who says they love you..<BR>I know what it's like to be lied to over and over, I know what it's like to be hurt so deeply that you just want to curl up and die because the pain is so intense that you just want it to stop..and don't care how..I know what it's like to try and drown that pain in a bottle of booze, or in other relationships..<P>I also know that those are temporary ways of dealing with that pain..and the feelings will return when the alcohol wears off, or when you wake up in the morning next to someone you hardly know..and the guilt that you feel inside that is compounded because of those choices..<P>You see DeeplySad, I have looked back over my life..NOT just the past 10 years of my marriage..I have looked back over ALL of my relationships..and the choices I have made..and it HAS NOT been a pretty picture..<BR>it's rather sad that I had such little respect for myself..and therefore others<BR>and so many people in my life have been hurt..because I was afraid to face the hurt I felt inside that was caused by the ultimate betrayal of a trust..that of a child for their parent..to protect them from harm, and to teach them about love, not sex..but love..the feeling of being loved..and of being safe..and having a safe place to go when you are hurting..<P>So until you have been through what I have..<BR>don't tell me to "JUST" get over it..because it is an INSULT .. not just to me..but to others as well..<P>if you feel that you can "just" get over it..then you need to ask yourself...why are YOU posting on this site?? Why are you seeking answers to your pain?? because according to what you said..it has no bearing on your future choices..<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by ThornedRose (edited September 08, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>Thorned Rose,<P>your post sounded as though you have moved light years fast forward into your learning and healing. . . . your posts to others have been very insightful and looks towards self improvement and responsibility very seriously.<P>You have grown tremendously and hopefully you can continue on this path of spiritual enlightenment. Everyone makes mistakes, but they are the BEST opportunities for personal growth if one decides to learn from them, and you are doing great!<P>Keep up the good work, and remember, counseling is not for sissies, its for hard working, conscientious people who seek to makes sense out of their pasts to prevent repeating the same mistakes, and from passing it on to our children. its for growth and goodness and ultimate happiness.<P>WIFTTy</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you..I have grown up tremdendously emotionally, and <BR>spiritually..through this...<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DeeplySad:<BR>[B]TR, You sound like you wish to be congratulated for your enlightenment so congratulations on finding those.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, NO I don't care to be congratulated on what I have learned...I am just thankful that I did LEARN something about myself through all this...and have grown because of it..I don't NEED your CUDO's...the only thing that is important to me at this time is that God cares that I have learned something through this..and that I have become closer to HIM because of it..and that HE has been there for me through it all..and will continue to be there for me..<BR> <BR> <BR>

Thank you for sharing your insights TR. In delving through your past, you've described patterns in your marriages that reflect pain from your childhood. Based on some responses you've received, I'd say you hit a few nerves with some people! Be confident in the lessons you've worked so hard to learn. You took a lot of time, effort and thought to write your post. You made yourself vulnerable. It's a brave and trusting thing to do, and worthy of respect and understanding from others. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by lonesome heart (edited September 08, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lonesome heart:<BR><B>Thank you for sharing your insights TR. In delving through your past, you've described patterns in your marriages that reflect pain from your childhood. Based on some responses you've received, I'd say you hit a few nerves with some people! Be confident in the lessons you've worked so hard to learn. You took a lot of time, effort and thought to write your post. You made yourself vulnerable. It's a brave and trusting thing to do, and worthy of respect and understanding from others. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your welcome, and yes, I have taken a lot of time, this<BR>was not an overnight healing process, sometimes when the<BR>pain is so deep, I wish that there were an "easier" way<BR>but then, the lessons learned wouldn't mean as much, there wouldn't have been the growth, nor would it have had the<BR>impact not just on me but on others in my life that it has.<P>I know that through my facing the proverbial "elephant in the room" that it's not just changed me, but other friends<BR>and family members as well. I just pray that one day my stbx<BR>would also go through this search through his own hurts<BR>and pains of his past of having an alcoholic father, his past relationships. <P>As I have read the book The Wounded Heart, there were LOTS of things that really helped me. One thing that I really began to understand was the dying of the "old nature"<BR>as we go through this process, and becoming a New Creation<BR>in Christ. Doing away with childish ways of thinking and doing things..and growing into maturity both emotionally<BR>and spiritually and ultimately learning to trust God in ALL<BR>things..<P><BR>But, if my sharing has helped even one other person then it's for God's Glory..because without His help and comfort during these times..I would have ended my own life during the deepest darkest hours of that pain..just to get it to stop.

Hi TR,<P>I'm proud of you. <P><BR>And to anyone who has 'unkind' thoughts, remember these 3 wise old sayings:<P>Something about until you've walked in my shoes..........,<P>Something about glass houses and stones......., and<P>If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything<P><BR>love and hugs TR<P>Jo<P>

TR,<P>You have done things and admitted to things that some WS would never admit to. You have taken time to try and learn and heal, and that is a big accomlishment. You deserve much credit for all you've been thru and all you have learned. Thank you for sharing what its like on "the other side" of the equation, because at times, I am STILL looking for answers.<P>Hugs, Dana<BR>

Bonnet, Thank you...<P>Dana - I pray that you find those answers..but I know that<BR>you can only find them when the other person can also look<BR>within themselves and be able to open up and share those<BR>things with you..we weren't born mind readers--(which is probably a good thing - if we really think about our own thoughts towards others sometimes.) but at the same time..it's very painful..both to hear those things and to <BR>be vunerable enough to share those things..and to really hear what the other person says -- sometimes though..we have<BR>to really look at their actions..and try to understand their hurts inside, we can't make them open up and share them with us..which can be very frustrating as we all know too well..<BR>but, if we know even a little bit about what they have been through in the past..it can be very enlightening to helping us to understand them better...wherein lies the biggest<BR>struggle of all..learning to share yourself honestly and openly with others..and stop pretending to be something you <BR>think they want you to be...