Hi everyone! I haven't been here in a long time, but this site was a life-saver when I was going through my ex-husband's affair/abandonment. It all started almost 3 years ago, and I've divorced for 1.5 years. My ex just married the other woman a few weeks ago. I'm doing great overall. <P>Here's my question --- I just started seeing a wonderful man. But he left his wife 4 years ago for another woman. The affair didn't work out. He interprets it as the only way to get out of a bad situation. They were in marriage therapy for 6 years, and hadn't had sex in 5 years before he left, so clearly all was not well. He says he was never unfaithful before that. The question is...once a betrayer, always a betrayer? Am I making a big mistake getting involved with someone who previously had an affair? If he did it to her, why wouldn't he do it to me someday? <P>On the other hand, I know from my reading on infidelity that men tend to leave marriages only when there is someone else in the picture. So if I refuse to date any divorced men who left for another woman, there won't be very many left. Am I being too narrow-minded? Am I fooling myself by thinking that he's any different than my ex-husband? Apparently everyone who knows them (including his own kids!) thinks he did the right thing, and no one thinks that about my ex-husband. I don't want to be a fool, though. <P>I appreciate any advice you can give!!! And to some of my old pals -- it's great to see you here! <BR>

Animac,<P>The questions you need to ask are..How has he changed over the years?? how is he any different now than he was then?<BR>Did he learn anything about himself during that time?<BR>Is he able to open up and talk to you about himself, other than to say "they didn't have sex in five years"?? Does he also take responsibility for his actions in having the affair? Other than..she wouldn't have sex with me..why wouldn't she have sex w/ him? was it something within her? Does he even know?? <P>read my post on what I learned from being a WS and see if<BR>he has learned some of the same things about himself..<BR>Did he even look within himself to figure out what his needs<BR>are? Can he share those needs with you?<P>Just a few things to ask him..and yourself..What did he learn??<P>

Wow !! Ani, how ARE you? Sounds like you are doing pretty well... It's been so long since I've seen you on the forums.<P>I don't have much to suggest about your situation, unfortunately. I really just wanted to say hello. But TR's observations sound like a great place to start. Maybe he is a conflict avoider - and if that is the case, then you will wind up with some kind of trouble down the line, and it might or might not be infidelity. Establishing what he learned from his experience is an important start.<P>Good luck!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Animac,<P>I don't know if you remember me, but I do remember you well.<P>You said, <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He interprets it as the only way to get out of a bad situation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that is a huge red flag, an indication of unwillingness to take responsibility for his actions. I think it is likely that that is an indication of his preferred method of dealing with situations - doing whatever he wants to do and then claiming he had no choice.<P>If he felt great remorse and realized that what he had done was inexcusable, that might be different.<P>I think it would in general be a good idea if possible to talk to any and all ex-wives to get their side of the story. I am highly suspicious of those who claim not to have had sex in 5 years. If this were true, it occurs to me that it could be because the wife had not forgiven him for previous affairs. I would take everything with not just a grain, but an entire one pound box of salt. <P>I do not think refusal to date former betrayers, especially non-repentant ones, eliminates any good men - of whom I suspect there are too few to begin with. You are at least still left with men whose wives left them for an OP. <P>

Sorry for the delay -- I posted from work, and then found my home IP address was banned. It's a pooled IP from my ISP, so it's not me, just someone who once had the same IP address. Anyway, so here I am back at work...<P>Thorned Rose- <BR>Thank you for your reply, and for your honesty in your other post (What I <BR>learned from being a WS). <P>The man in this case was also abused as a child, and fell into an early <BR>marriage. Clinging to the hope that SOMEONE...ANYONE would love him. (This <BR>is of course, as I've heard it from him). We've talked a lot about how he's <BR>grown and changed, and what's involved in a HEALTHY relationship. But...we <BR>haven't talked much about his affair. I think you are right -- I need to <BR>find out what he's learned from it and whether he takes responsibility for <BR>his own part in it. <P>Terri-<BR>Hi again! I hope you are doing well. I'm just getting caught up by reading some different postings on the site. Yes, I'm doing really well. Conflict avoider is a good thought -- after all, there's a reason why he chose the infidelity route instead of others open to him.<P>Nellie-<BR>Of course I remember you (and your kids!) You make a very good point about the men out there who are themselves victims of betrayal. The good news is that I certainly don't at this point feel like I NEED a man in my life. So I don't have to settle for anything less than what I deserve. And you're right that I wonder about her side of the story! <P>Thanks for the good suggestions. I'm trying to keep somewhat detached while at the same time exploring where this is going. <P>Good to hear from you!<BR>-A<P><BR>

Hi Animac,<P>I wonder what happened to you. If I remember correctly, you moved back to where your family was from?<P>I don't have any advice--my H and I are doing well. I sometimes check the D/D board to see how some from the old board are doing.<P>I hope you and your children are doing ok. Do be careful. I know you were hurt deeply and tried so hard to change things--take things slowly and don't settle.<P>God Bless <P>

Annie!!!<P>Well, you've gotten all the good advice already, so I'm just going to say "hi". I've been wondering about some of the old-timers we haven't seen here for some time, and it's good to see you doing well.<P>I especially like Nellie's advice to talk with this guy's ex if you consider deepening the relationship---Harley also recommends this as a way for getting to know someone.<P>It's nice to see you back!

Hi Ani,<P>Just saying hi too! I still think of you from time to time - especially when I recently went through a "power grieving" session and read through all our old posts from way back when.<P>I personally continue to believe in the possibility for people to change themselves when they are truly motivated to do so (wouldn't have hung on so long for my STBX otherwise). I think Thorned Rose's comments are good and I would also urge you go slow. As a BS, you know the "buzz phrases" that a WS can toss off that are probably still triggers for you. In fact, maybe you are hearing some of those already - you are right to be cautious. <P>I would want to know more than what he shared about what happened with their marriage, and how he views his role in the breakdown. You and I both know an affair is not the "only" way out, but maybe he hasn't learned this yet? I would want to understand this better... <P>So good to see you here Ani!! <P>Starpony

I have been reading this post and the other for a while now. I just want to say this: you have doubts, or you wouldn't be posting. He is a former betrayer, so why deal with that? You have been through enough - and while you say he's charming, he didn't have sex with his own wife for five years???? This sound like a big red flag to me.<P>Plenty more fish in the sea!!!

What man would willingly stay in marriage counseling for 6 yrs and not have sex for 5 yrs with his own wife? I really find that HARD to believe.The fact that he blames his marriage for HIS choosing to have an affair is also a red flag. One thing about betrayers is that they perfect their lying to suit their purpose at the time. I know my H did this. I just dont think he is telling you the truth. Be careful. lifeismessy

How does anyone know that anyone is telling the truth about their past? <P>A few of the posters on this thread have witnessed my conflict with telling a future relationship prospect the gory details of my marriage. This thread is proof that people make up their own stories about your life regardless of what you tell them. So, why not just cut to the chase?<P>For alot of reasons, I don't care to discuss my past relationships (good or bad). However, I have seriously considered creating a dating "resume" if or when I do date again. If they start asking a bunch of questions, I hand them a piece of paper with a list of names and last known location/phone number of significant others/friends and tell them to go look it up themselves. They would be free to come up with their own conclusions on their own time and won't burden me with their judgements. If they don't call me again, or break up with me after talking to my friends/exes, then oh well. I've just saved myself from a few evenings of past relationship confessional hell.<P>Oh, and under each exes name would be a brief synopsis, just so they'd know where to start in their line of questioning...kind of like this....<P>BF #1. 1982-1985 Lived together for two years. Broke up after he met someone else.<P>H #1 1987-1988 Was in the Navy, he slept with 20+ women. When I suggested counseling, he suggested a divorce. <P>H #2 1991-1999 I cheated on him. I confessed. He divorced me.<P>1998-present. Celibate. See references below.<P>Friend #1 1979-present<BR>Friend #2 1980-present<BR>Friend #3 1998-present<P><BR>Life is messy,<BR>"What man would willingly stay in marriage counseling for 6 yrs and not have sex for 5 yrs with his own wife?"<P>There is one such man on this board. Someone I admire very much (you know who you are). There was another woman who used to post here whose husband rarely had sex with her over a 5 yr period as well. You just don't know what goes on in other people's relationships.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited September 05, 2001).]

I moved my previous post to other thread...<P>Animac,<BR>It is clear you have doubts. Doesn't really matter what he says. Even if he said everything you wanted to hear from a former WS, I doubt you'd ever feel 100% comfortable because of what you've been through. <P>My suggestion is that you decide up front what you are willing to live with regarding someone's past before you get emotionally attached and stick to it. Don't waste this guy's time. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited September 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Animac:<BR><B><BR>Here's my question --- I just started seeing a wonderful man. But he left his wife 4 years ago for another woman. The affair didn't work out. He interprets it as the only way to get out of a bad situation. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi...remember me? I was wondering how you were not long ago! <P>I have to say that my initial reaction was that these few sentences added up to an oxymoron.<P>I guess I could not handle a relationship with someone who already betrayed someone else, while still married, unless he had obviously and dramtically changed his life and the changes were sustained for a substantial periord of time.<P>That doesn't mean that "once a cheater, always a cheater" is applicable to every person and all situations.<P>I just would have a comfortable level of trust. That said, I no longer trust my own mother, (OK I'm stretching to make a point) so my trust in another fallible human is pretty much shattered, so I'm not sure a comfortable level of trust could actually exist with anyone. <P>If he honestly feels he had no other choice but to cheat, that just sounds screwy to me.<P>By the way, how is your daughter? <P>

Hi everyone! Thanks for your advice and encouragement. <P>First, I should say that "the only way to get out of bad situation" was my words, not his. Thanks to your advice, I had a long, frank discussion with him about his affair. <P>I asked him what reassurance he could give me that history wouldn't repeat itself. I really liked his answer, which was basically "because I'M not the same person I was then." He didn't blame it on anyone but himself. He saw his affair as being similar to his marriage -- in his marriage, his wife treated him poorly so he felt like he was worthless. His affair partner thought he was wonderful, so he felt wonderful. In both cases he was relying on someone else's opinion of him to form his own opinion of himself. He blames himself for that. He seems to have done a lot of work on himself (he was in therapy for several years), and now feels like he wouldn't have an affair because that's not the kind of person he wants to be, and he has a pretty good sense of who he is. His own opinion of himself matters more than what anyone else thinks. <P>How different from my ex's self-serving rationalizations! (oh poor me, I'm a victim, this just happened to me and I had no control over it, and so forth). And the last thing I want to hear is "I wouldn't have an affair because I YOU'RE so wonderful, and I love you so much, etc." After all, everyone felt that way about their exes at one point, or they wouldn't have married, right? His reasons had nothing to do with me or with his ex-wife, and everything to do with himself. That's good. <P>I had a conversation with one of his teenage daughters. I wasn't intending to pry for information, really! We were on a walk and I was walking with her while he was a little ahead, doing something goofy with the other kids. His daughters are clearly crazy about him. As we laughed at his antics, I said something like "has he always been such a great Dad?" She got very serious and said (I'm paraphrasing) "No. He was a terrible Dad. My parents fought all the time. He worked all the time, and when he was home they were arguing. It's so much better now. It's amazing how much he's changed, but he's really worked at it. He's the greatest Dad now." Pretty strong words coming from someone who was there. <P>Student--yeah, that's what I'm trying to do, is decide up front whether this is something I can live with. Obviously, it will take a long time for trust to form, but there's no sense wasting my time or his if I don't think it could ever be there. It's also not fair to him to stay in this relationship but keep bringing it up -- "I can't trust you because you had an affair". Either I'm willing to accept the possibility of change or not. That's what I'm trying to figure out. <P>To answer all your kind inquiries...we moved from Colorado back to the Boston area about 6 months ago. I'm so glad we did! It's great to be near family again, and my daughters are developing wonderful relationships with their grandparents, aunts/uncles and cousins. My ex and his affair partner/fiance/now wife also moved, which is what we had agreed to in our separation agreement (he is also from here, and his family is here). He lives about 1 hour away. When we divorced, I clung to my old life, not wanting to leave my house or my neighborhood. But now that I have, I see how necessary it was to moving on with my life. I miss friends, but I'm happy to be in a community where they never knew me "before". They just know me now -- strong and happy -- and they don't know him at all. I feel a great sense of freedom in that. <P>So nice to correspond with you all again!

Animac,<P>In my opinion, you are asking for trouble. Even if his kids are on his side, that doesn't mean he told you all of the truth. My W was telling her OM that our marriage "was just on paper" - whatever that means. Well, we have a daughter - and she is flesh and blood - not just paper. In short, she lied to him - and continues (I believe) to lie to him. He has no way of checking up, wouldn't believe anything I said (after all, I tried to choke him once), and WANTS SO VERY MUCH (just like you) for it all to be true. Try not to believe what you want to believe. I think you are in for trouble. You are his (at least) third woman. Who will be his fourth? <P>Just my opinion. People who leave their wives / husbands, should be left alone.<P>-AD

I'm with AD. I wouldn't say that I don't believe a person can't change, but the change would be more than that. I remember my H telling me those same words when he was trying to convince me his affair was over. Just because people say something doesn't make it so. Lots of people know the difference between right and wrong and can tell you it in words, doesn't mean they live it. Also, I think there are way more reasons why affairs happen other than just the one he gave - for instance some people have addictive personalities. What if the real reason isn't at all what he thinks. What would prevent the next one.<P>Words are ok, they give insight to what people should know to be true. Action tho is what shows the person's character, how they process and use the information they know (or ignore it).<P>I personally won't have anything to do with any man who has ever cheated on his wife. Period, the end. Also, just my opinion.<P>------------------<BR>Kathy<p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited September 11, 2001).]

Hi Ani!!!<P>Member me? Looks like I will be the odd man out again. I cheated on my first W and vowed never to do it again. I learned a life lesson. That is the most important part. My second W always reminded me of of the fact and guess what? She is the one that cheated. Yeah, the M was failing, we didn't know what to do, and I had many chances to be unfaithful, but you know what... I didn't. I was commited to making the relationship work. She wasn't.<P>so.... once a cheater always a cheater. Maybe, unless they learn the lesson. Life is full of choices. I made the **right** one.<P>Just something to think about.

I'm with Medic here, and the fact that it has been so many years ago that he left his wife..and he's been in counseling dealing w/ his own issues..and I believe that People can change if they want to..<P>Abandonded dad, and weirded out are still feeling the pain<BR>of something very close to them right now...and aren't where you are in growth past an affair..and you have to learn to trust again sometime...so take it slowly..and build that trust..no need to "rush" into anything...

I was betrayed in my first marriage. He slept with over 20 women within a year and a half. He cheated on me the day after we were married!<P>You'd think that would have kept me from cheating, having experienced first hand the pain of betrayal myself. But I cheated on my second H. I have been voluntarily celibate for nearly three years now. Hardly a picture of promiscuous abandon.<P>I respect both AbandonedDad and wierdedout's decisions to avoid those who have cheated on their spouse. On the other hand, they might be surprised to find out that there are those who avoid people who have been cheated on. We all make decisions (some rational, some irrational) about who we want to be with, and that is fine. <P>Animac,<BR>I agree that it would not be fair for you to keep bringing up his past over and over. I truly believe that there are really not enough questions in the world that could be asked that would guarantee your safety. Just do your best. Stay strong. Don't feel like you have to settle for anything. If it is right, you will know.

That's what is so great about this place. You all bring your own experiences and perspectives to the issues at hand. <P>One fear that I have is that this guy is a romance junkie. Someone who loves the feeling of "falling in love". The only thing that makes me think this is the fact that he's a little overboard in his expressions of love. Flowers, cards, poetry, gifts -- it's wonderful to be treated so well, but it can't last. <P>Of course, if he were a romance junkie he would probably have had more affairs during his marriage. And probably wouldn't have voluntarily chosen to be alone for a year while he worked on his own issues. <P>He also says a lot of things like "You're the most wonderful thing that ever happened to me", and so forth. I get suspicious of anything that sounds like "soulmate" talk. Am I just too cynical to enjoy what might be a wonderful relationship?