I originally posted this on Animac's thread "I'm dating a former betrayer..."<P>But first, a little update...<P>Still working on the PhD. Should graduate in the next year (if everything goes well) or two if they don't. I anticipate beginning to date sometime after I graduate. I've been divorced for almost three years now.<P>I have objections to talking in detail about my past. I'm not opposed to covering things that are easily verifiable (# of marriages, financial history, criminal record, etc), but I think it is unhealthy to bring past failures (or "successes" even!!) into the present. It is my belief that we create (or re-create) ourselves with every choice we make today. By focusing on the past, good or bad, there is the potential to become lazy or arrogant (if we've been "good" in the past) or alternatively, we learn to label ourselves by some long-distant failure and become discouraged--or WORSE. Either way holds us back from reaching our true potential. Not only that, by sharing details about our past (good or bad) with someone new, we keep those old ghosts alive in the present. IMO, the "stories" we share about our past is often not the truth at all. <P>When I've explained this philosophy to people here, their conclusion is usually that I am being disrespectful for not giving a person I'd potentially be serious with the opportunity to make choices concerning my past. On one hand, I can see their point. On the other hand, it is my distinct impression that people come up with their own conclusions about other people's lives regardless of what is told to them. So, for that reason, I consider it a waste of my time.<P>After much thought, I think I've come up with a solution. The DATING RESUME...<P>My guess is that some people will be thrown off by its' "efficiency". But while you are considering it, think about this....what is it you are after when you ask about someone's past? My guess is that people want to be safe. They want to feel like they are making a good investment. Sure, at some level they probably want to "get to know" the person, but not because they have any intrinsic interest in people or are really interested in challenging any long-held beliefs of their own. Mostly they want to feel safe, and I suppose I don't blame them. So, this is what I've come up with in the interest of honoring another person's desire to feel safe.<P>It would be much like a job resume. It would have names of exes and long-time friends, along with last known location/phone numbers. If someone wanted to know about my past, I'd just hand them the "dating resume" and they can go find out themselves. There would be some conditions, however. I would require that they make their "decision" based on the interviews alone. There will be no post-interview discussions or wrap-up to hear "my side". I don't care about offering my side. I have no interest in discussing my past, nor do I care about what my exes or friends might say. It does not make me feel more intimate to discuss my history with someone. This exercise would not be for my benefit, per se. It is strictly designed to be respectful of someone's need to know, while respecting my need to live in the present. <P>I'd like some feedback on this. What would your reaction be if someone handed you something like that up front? Not on the first date of course, but before there was anything intimate? <P>Keep in mind, that the dating resume (for me) would very likely be a replacement for discussions about my past--not a supplement. I'm quite comfortable with anything my exes or friends would say about me, I just think it is a waste of my time to tell people about my past (good or bad). <P>I'm curious to know whether this would be enough for some of you. Specifically, if someone refused to discuss their past, or only discussed verifiable details (such as # of marriages, health history, financial history, criminal record, etc), but you had unlimited access to any and all information (from other sources) and were given permission to investigate, would that be enough? I mean, really, when it comes down to it, why leave it up to your gut? Just do a background check and be done with it.

Being a paragon of efficiency, I like the idea. Of course, you're gonna get people who pad their resumes.<P>But if you really wanted to get a great husband under using this type of methodology, I'd get an experienced headhunter to find you a few candidates! <P>I think I'd be very put off about your unwillingness to discuss your past. Much like a resume, I'd look at it, but your personality at the "interview" would be a major factor in my decision to hire you. If I asked you questions about your doctoral studies, I'd be put off by "I don't want to talk about it", and then having you jab your finger at a list and saying "call them".<P>It's interesting, Student---complete honesty, in an impersonal manner. I like the resume, and it would say a lot about your character that you were willing to offer it. But I'd still want to talk to you about it.<BR>

K,<BR>Well, much like a resume, it would very effectively weed out anyone who was not willing to go through the effort of checking my references. One thing I'm absolutely not into is spending lord knows how many evenings with countless men going over and over details of my life on the off-chance that they will find something appealing about what I SAY about my past.<P>You must admit that it would save alot of time and aggravation, don't you think? <P>"If I asked you questions about your doctoral studies, I'd be put off by "I don't want to talk about it", and then having you jab your finger at a list and saying "call them".<P>Hmmm. Well, a good interviewer is not interested in how I "feel" about titanium Technically, they want to know if I am qualified to do the work THEY want me to do. If I did the work, it is likely I have papers to show for it (verifiable facts). Personally, they would like to know that I can work with others and have an interest in carrying on a conversation just long enough to insure this. In that respect, a person who wants to know about my past should not care about my "feelings" about it either...not if they are smart. If they are smart, they will focus on verifiable facts they can check out for themselves--not my charisma and certainly not on whatever buzz words I am able to dream up. And after being here for a number of years, I could dream up quite a few...and as you know have debated doing just that simply to prove a point.<P>If I had a mind to, it would be extremely easy for me to SAY whatever it is that someone needed to hear to make them feel safe. Take Animac's thread for instance. A brilliant liar could ASSUME the role of repentant former betrayer to trick someone into giving them a chance. Or a BS can assume the role of the forgiving victim, when really, they are vindictive and mean and mainly need someone around they feel superior to, and so choose a former betrayer to work out their issues with. <P>

How <I>do</I> you feel about titanium??? I love it in it's application of syringe needles for our 96/384 channel diluters (that's 96 or 384 needles). You miss a plate and bend the needles---voila, they pop right back into shape. Much, much better than replacing them all. <P>The real question is what do you think of beryllium?? (Yeah, I know it's toxic as heck...)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If they are smart, they will focus on verifiable facts they can check out for themselves--not my charisma and certainly not on whatever buzz words I am able to dream up. And after being here for a number of years, I could dream up quite a few...and as you know have debated doing just that simply to prove a point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Agreed---unless you're applying for a position in marketing... <P>I do think it would be a good way to save yourself a lot of potential "hassle" over regurgititation of your history. It'd probably blow most guys away---they wouldn't know what to do with the information, and wouldn't bother to check (or be afraid to). Again, it takes a certain set of skills to interview effectively---noticing "nice legs" will only get you so far...<P>I do agree with you about checking out the past history of someone (and Harley states the same). Although it's uncomfortable doing so, I think it's an excellent way to get the person's character through a wider set of sources.<BR>

K,<P>Titanium. It's amazing stuff. Ductile, strong, corrosion resistant, light--but it can be a b*tch to work with. I was here until 3:00 am cutting a 3/4" section of it--the stuff I work with needs to be cut very slowly. Yea. So I came to MB to pass the time...<P>I still don't understand why knowing about someone's past makes a difference. I've accepted that it is important to other people, so that is why I came up with this dating resume thing. Seems to me the only thing that is important is if the person takes responsibility for their life, and that can be observed very easily by interacting with them in the present. Still, there are no guarantees no matter what people do. Seems like such a waste of time to even worry about it.<P>no other comments out there???

Stu,<P>I'm not sure if knowing someone's past "makes a difference". I don't think it's a huge deal for me---but the journey to get there is one way to build intimacy (again, this is a very personal opinion). For example, if we were dating, there's nothing that I can remember of your past that would scare me off. Or make me think less of you. But if you were unwilling to share it---I guess I'd feel that you didn't trust me. And if I discovered some of it by accident, it's the lack of trust in me that would hurt.<P>I'm not sure if this makes sense to you (too much beryllium on the brain??). I certainly don't think an "honesty" dump is particularly helpful on the first date. And I can see your point of view too: you don't want to waste time on relationships that are bound to fail, and you've had no real positive experience with using this type of honesty. I don't have a good answer for you---and I can't even think of a good Steve Harley quote to throw your way... <P>LOL at the late night of titanium cutting. Do you know just how sexy female metallurgists are??? I guess my method of taking a sawz-all to it wouldn't be the best solution, huh?<P>

interesting idea;<P>I think I would want to know up front that the man likes some of the same sports that I do..... I have decided that I DO NOT want a man who lives and breaths baseball (ugh); other sports are okay. I want them to love snow skiing, and scuba diving or at least one one them. Is that shallow? I just dont want a couch-potato...so can we put an energy-level-meter on it?<P>I would also want to know that they have graduated from the "READING OF THE HARLEY BOOKS" as a pre-requisite and understand communication.<P>Not bad.... <BR>Scuba

K,<P>"For example, if we were dating, there's nothing that I can remember of your past that would scare me off. Or make me think less of you."<P>and giving you the dating resume would be proof that I'm not concerned about that.<P>"But if you were unwilling to share it---I guess I'd feel that you didn't trust me."<P>Giving you access to the information (via outside sources) seems like a better way to "share it". As I've mentioned here before, I have zero interest in getting pats on the back for overcoming whatever. I have zero interest in gaining sympathy in a poor-me story, and I have even less interest in proving to someone how "responsible" I can be by explaining all of the things that were my fault in the past.<P>People have claimed that I have a moral obligation to tell them about things in my past. Ok. Fine, they can do that. I will even "help" them by giving them phone numbers, etc. But I still don't see why it is necessary or helpful to hear it from me. Especially when I see all too often that people don't believe it anyway. Why waste my time? <P>For instance, that guy that Animac is dating seems like he's wasting his time. Even if he does succeed in gaining her trust (for now), even if he does manage to say all the "right" stuff that repentant WS's are supposed to say, I doubt she'll ever fully trust him because of what she's been through. Then he'll get to jump through these hoops for as long as he is with her, and why?. Because of a bad choice he made before he met her and has since paid for with his previous marriage? Talk about hell on earth. <P>"And if I discovered some of it by accident, it's the lack of trust in me that would hurt."<BR>Why is this considered an issue of trust? Why would not discussing it necessarily have anything to do with the other person? I could understand if I had lied about something in the present or while I knew them, but not about something that happened before I ever met them--especially if it were in the far distant past. Even MORE so if it is something I've already done time for and don't care to relive. <P>You tell me...when does someone get to let their past go? When you decide or when they decide? and why is it immoral to let them decide when to let it go and how to let it go?<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You tell me...when does someone get to let their past go? When you decide or when they decide? and why is it immoral to let them decide when to let it go and how to let it go?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK---I'll deal with the last issue. I don't think it's immoral to not have full disclosure. It goes against the Rule of Complete Honesty, but that's not quite on the 10 commandments yet... So we agree on this issue.<P>When do you let your past go? It depends on what you mean by "let it go". In one sense, you can never let your past go. It's shaped the person you are today---for better and for worse. On the other hand:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Even MORE so if it is something I've already done time for and don't care to relive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>it serves no purpose to continually beat yourself up for the past, or let others do it for you. Once you've processed your past and adjusted your behaviors for mistakes (and I know that you're a proponent of personal responsibility), you have "done your time".<P>Let's take the example of dating again. I've discovered something "important" in your past that you've "done your time" for---but that you didn't disclose to me. I'm hurt that you didn't share that part of yourself with me---because I perceive it as a "big event" (let's pretend you had an abortion at 16 because you were sexually assulted).<P>Why am I hurt? It's got nothing to do with me personally---and I understand that from a logic point of view. But I do view a component of a intimate relationship as the willingness to share histories. From my POV---this "no history" stuff is probably a hurt I can heal from (after all, I've healed from worse... ). But I would still come to you and tell you that I thought it was a big deal to you---and would want to know why you didn't share.<P>What would your response be?<P>And if it was "hey hon, it's something that is in my past that I don't like reliving---but I'm glad that you care enough to be concerned for me...", I'd probably go away feeling great. But if you come off with a "none of your damn business", I'm probably going to shy away from conversation with you... <P>Is this making any sense?<P>In Animac's case, I think that this guy <I>may</I> be wasting his time, but I honestly think that she's not sure of where she stands with all this yet. If you're a theorist, you'd tell her that she should have thought of these issues before she went out dating. If you're an experimentalist, you just advise her to ask the right questions, and don't worry about a failed experiment or two.<P>

Hey Student,<P>I don't think that the idea of a dating resume is all bad, BUT...if the person only talks to the people you've dated or been married to, that might not be all good. People like to change their past to make themselves look better. Not all, but some. <P>I'm sure if I told a guy that I was dating to talk to my ex about me, he'd hear how much of a ***** I am, or other nasty things about me. (My ex is still angry at me for his affair! LOL) <P>I can understand wanting to get both sides of a story. You could let the guy talk to the people from your past and then discuss what they find out. This would give them an idea of what really happened in the relationship and then they can form their own opinions! <P>Mitzi

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>It is my belief that we create (or re-create) ourselves with every choice we make today.....<BR>Not only that, by sharing details about our past (good or bad) with someone new, we keep those old ghosts alive in the present. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>So, in other words, who we are TODAY is totally created by the choices we made yesterday (the past). And who we are tomorrow is totally created by the choices we make today. BUT...if you TALK about those choices, EVEN THO THEY HELPED CREATE WHO YOU ARE TODAY, it's unhealthy and keeps "old ghosts" alive? I don't think so.<P>I think it's unhealthy if you DON'T talk about your past...in the same way you would talk about the NOW and the FUTURE. No, they aren't REALITY. But how you see them says something about you. How you talk about them lets people see who you are....get to know you now.<P>We ALL KNOW that our own particular view of the past (present, or future) isn't the 100% total truth. It's only our opinion. You don't have to "not talk about it" to prove the point. It's overkill. <P>I think if a guy handed me a resume and said "I don't want to talk about any of this, but if you are interested in finding out, call these people" I would head straight for the door. I don't really care what those other people have to say....I care about what HE would have to say. Of course, I know it's only HIS opinion. But it would tell me that that person only cares about "just the facts, ma'am" and not all the other non-resume-realted ways we communicate....i.e. body language, tone of voice, facial expression, etc. I don't care so much if he shop lifted as a kid....I care how he FEELS about it now....how he talks about it now. <P>A resume is good for the facts. There is alooooooot more to dating and getting to know someone that just the facts. If someone didn't want to talk about the past, I wouldn't want to spend much time getting to know them at any intimate level...it doesn't seem like they are interested in being the total, integritious, unified person that all those choices created. That, to me, is unhealthy.<P>Please don't take this as a slam. I respect your right to your opinion and feelings about the past. I'm just saying I wouldn't want to date someone who couldn't be open and upfront about anything, any time in their lives. (And I'm not saying I want to "focus" or "dwell" on the past.....just why block it out totally? Doesn't make sense to me....)<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

K,<P>Well, giving someone access to people who do know everything about my life is better than the Rule of Complete Honesty, IMO. Seems to me they would have a much easier time asking questions to someone they don't know rather than asking me. <P>Hmm. What would my response be to someone finding out about something they consider major in my past? I'd ask them why they considered it to be "major" first. In your example, there are two, or maybe three, things that people consider major. One of them is being sexually assaulted. The other is abortion. The third might be not talking about it.<P>My guess is that a person has more need to know about things that directly affect them. If the sexual side of the relationship had always been very good, and they considered the rape aspect as major, I'd say--"nice of you to care, but obviously it hasn't affected our sex life or the way *I* feel about sex--if it affects how you feel about ME sexually, then lets talk about that." You see, because I am personally responsible, I will have already dealt with anything that would affect my response towards him and would encourage him to discuss his feelings. <P>I have my tubes tied, so the issue of abortion is not relevant to me now. I would reiterate that my past sexual experience was not the main factor when deciding to have my tubes tied. He would have known that already, because I'm sure we would have discussed issues surrounding children before becoming serious. <P>And finally, if the third thing is what was bugging you the most, then I would most likely THINK "it is none of your business" but I would SAY what you said--about not wanting to relive it. <P>Mitzi,<BR>My main objective in giving out contact information for my friends/exes is to avoid having conversation after conversation after conversation about every boring detail in my life. WHAT A DRAG!!<P>I'm not concerned with what my exes say about me. My friends can say anything they want too. I really don't care.

Student,<P>Yeah, I know that having conversations about the past can be boring, but they do say a lot about a person. <P>Wouldn't you want to know about a person's past and wouldn't you want to discuss some aspects of it? Maybe not go into detail after detail but at least get a little more than just basic information?<P>Mitzi

Mrs. O,<P>I'm totally open to discussing my opinions and feelings about what is going on in my life today...and my plans for the future. <P>I've experienced first hand that people really don't believe what you tell them about your past. Oh jeez, then it is like the friggin' chinese water torture...drip, drip, drip as they ply you with question after question. Week after week, month after month. OMG, I'm getting nauseous just thinking about it. <P>Take a look at Animac's thread, and others who are dating. This guy tells her stuff about his marriage, and there is a long line of people ready to pipe in with how this isn't true or that isn't true. And why? because THEY have never gone without sex for 5 yrs? It is going on three for me! By choice!! When I read this stuff, I think, really...why bother. People believe what they want to believe anyway.<P>So, you say you wouldn't date someone who handed you a resume with some facts and references. Ok, maybe you can explain to me why you'd believe what he had to say about his past. Also explain to me when the appropriate time would be for him to lay it on you that he was married twice, and had cheated before, etc. After you had sex the first time, the 10 time, the zillionth time? Or, tell me how many gawd-awful probings he'd have to suffer through to make sure you believed him. <P>The main reason why I would offer it is to give someone another opinion...a more balanced view. And, give them an opportunity to bail before they become attached. I think that is the most respectful thing to do, even if it may not have the personal touch most people seem to prefer. <P>Or, another alternative is to have a "this is my life" monologue. Cover the territory that the DR would cover, but do it with the spoken word. Heck, I could throw in some tears here and there at critical points just to make it look good. Would that make you feel better? Or, I could just wait. Make sure they are good and attached before I "drop the bomb". Of course, again it would have to be accompanied by the appropropriate level of emotion to give it just the right effect and make sure the other person felt special when I shared it with them.

Hi Student,<P>Good to see you back, I've missed your posts. Once again, you have come up with an idea that teases the immagination.<P>It really is a great idea. The only problem is, it won't work. <P>Can you feature this? We are along to about the third or fourth date, by this time I probably have three evenings, a dozen telephoned "meaningful" conversations, and a few hundred dollars invested in this dalliance. We are going out for a favorite evening pastime of theater and a late dinner. So we are in one of those upholstered toilets with a swishy waiter, candlelight and soft music. And while we are cooing at each other over the ambiance of a glass of Chalet Mouton Cadet, we are supposed to be exchanging smokey, knowing glances, you know, flirting and all that nonsense.<P>OK, Ms. Engineer, how do I work this dating resume into the conversation? Why am I getting this vision of Tyrone and Gladys on Rowen and Martin's Laugh In? And Gladys beating Tyrone to death with her umbrella.<P>Hey Student, good to see you back. Enjoyed reading it.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

bumper,<P>You really made me laugh...especially about the place with the swishy waiter. I DO live in Midtown (Atlanta) after all <P>Well, lets see. I doubt I would let you invest a few hundred dollars at the 3rd or 4th date. I pay half unless it is a special occasion. It wouldn't matter if you were a millionaire. You'd just have to be content with sharing half of my starving student night out--even if that means spending Friday night reading magazines at the Kroger instead of the place with the swishy waiter. <P>The DR comes up, lets see.... Over the Starbucks Coffee or the NPR report about Condit and the intern while we drive to the Kroger (hee,hee)... The world is full of opportunities to gripe about the sorry, sinful state it is in, don't cha think?<P>Then I say, "oh, by the way. Here's the phone number to a doctor who can take care of all your STD tests for $100 (here's my report, BTW). And oh, here (handing him the DR). If you have any further questions, feel free to contact my exes or my friends. My friends are more than happy to talk to you. This is the phone number of my ex (or at least, it was when I talked to him three years ago). I'm sure you can find out everything you might like to know by talking to them. Ok...have a good day...talk to ya later....<P>Or, it comes up the first time they ask me "so, how long have you been single?" Out pops the DR. "I prepared this just for you. I figured that you might have a few questions. Here you go". I'd point out which people were best to cover which portion of my life they were the most interested in. Friend #1 knows me from HS to present, without any interruption. Friend #2 knows my HS time the best, with a period during my first H. Friend #3 knows my marriage #2 history the best. Of course, all of that would probably be on the DR already.

Hi, Student.<P>I for one, don't like the idea of the dating resume. For me, one of the joys of getting to know someone is to get to know them. If I wanted to skip that part, I could hire a PI and get a dossier on the other person.<P>For me, what is important is what kind of person the person I am interested in, is now. The past is relevant to all of us, because it helped to form who we are NOW.<P>I can't really see what good a resume would do for anyone. If the person you are potentially dating needs external validation about your character, what would they do - call up one of your exH's? Is either of them likely to tell that person anything about the state of your character today or if you will make a suitable companion today?<P>This wouldn't work for me. Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Hiya Stu!<P>Say, ahhh....If ya think it would help....you can put my phone number on that thang.....sorta like a reference?<BR>I promise not to mention the "volkswagens" passing each other....Course, tho, if a feller has gotten close enough to you to get the resume.....he's probly already noticed those "V-dubs"! <P>Take care, sweety!<P>Xman<P>PS: (professional ?) Do ya think they could make banjo strings out of that titanium stuff? I've had an awful rash of busted strings during performances lately.<P>

roll me away,<P>Well, almost everyone here has suggested that my past IS me (even though I don't buy it). Ok, so in the spirit of honesty, etc, I've offered a means with which they can take a survey of my character.<P>You've heard the saying, once a cheater always a cheater, right? I'll bet there is more than one person who would not date someone who cheated before, no matter what lessons they "learned". Many people have suggested that I need to "warn" people about my history--let them make the decision whether or not to get involved with me early on. Ok, this is a very efficient way to do this that encourages people to make a decision before they become emotionally involved, which I think is a bit more virtuous than waiting till I've reeled them in to divulge my sordid past. Not only that, I'm not forced to sit there and suffer through any awkward moments, nor am I compelled to offer up humiliating gestures of "I'm not worthy" junk like Animac's boyfriend better come up with pretty soon before he gets tossed (seems to me).<P>Yes, I would recommend they talk to my exes. I don't care what my exes tell them. They could talk to my friends as well. From what I've gathered here, it wouldn't matter what *I* told them. The second I told them I cheated, my honor would be in doubt anyway so what is the point? If they had access to all the information they could ever want and they decide not to pursue it, then I know that a) I'm obviously not worth the effort to them b) they really weren't that interested in knowing the truth afterall. They just wanted to probe me for the fun of it. <P>Either way, I've saved myself a great deal of time and aggravation.<P><BR>Thanks all,<BR>after this brief survey, I've decided to use the DR should I decide to date again. I haven't decided it's final form. It is interesting that most of the men came out in favor of it, with efficiency being the key feature. The women were generally not in favor of it because I guess there is not as much conversation involved--usually a higher priority for women than for men I'm guessing. Since my target audience would be the guys, sorry ladies, I'm going with efficiency.

Hey Xman,<P>Hmm. Titanium banjo strings. You're probably using steel right now, correct? Maybe silk wrapped steel?<P>The thing with titanium vs. steel is the strength to weight ratio. Basically, for the same cross section of a steel string compared to a titanium string, the steel is still more strong (but not by much). It just weighs three times as much. Unless you are planning to send your banjo into outer space, the steel is probably the best bet... and cheaper too <P>hope you're doing ok. The V-dubs are looking more like Hotwheels now, since I've been roller blading to school. It's funny that you remembered that. <P>K, <BR>I don't know anything about beryllium. You say it is dangerous? How about the hydrofluoric acid that I etch my titanium with? If it spills on you, you don't feel it. It doesn't burn or anything. It is colorless and odorless. What it does do is seep right through your skin and down to your bones, where it proceeds to leach the calcium out of them. Instant osteoporosis. Fun stuff.