I dont think I am doing as good of job at plan A as I had thought. <P>Quick summary of my situation:<BR>H attacked me in May and we seperated but kept in touch by phone regularly and saw each other most weekends. He started therapsy and saw a dr got on medicine. We never made it as far as joint therapy and he quit seeing dr and therapsit and stop taking med. Last month he moved home without my ok. So I am working plan A under duress but still considered myself to be giving it 100%.<P>But i have been lying about money. Not claiming that I didnt spend it but that i did. And putting that money up so I can support myself and my daughter if we do split. Does this mean in the back of my mind I know we are going to? Am I being deceptive or just protecting myself and my daughter?

My H moved home without my o.k. and when he left the next day to go to work I changed the locks. <P>Yes, you are protecting. But I say - do something BEFORE another attack, not WHEN another attack happens. If he is not in therapy, not on medication, it is just a matter of time. <P>This is not a time for Plan A but a time for an ultimatum. <BR>Your can't live this lye. Action must be taken or you are just as bad as him. You are allowing it to happen again. You are treating the symptoms and not the problem. <P>I hope you don't read these words as attacks. I am afraid for you. You say he attacked you. I am all for you staying married but he needs to be willing to work on the marriage (therapy/meds). If he is not willing, you have to protect yourself and your daughter and be willing to leave.

I dont take it as an attack. I have heard the same advise from several people and I know everyday I stay or let him stay I increase the chances of something happening, but I dont see any other choice right now. My fear is if I force him out I will not get any money from him and I cant support myself and my daughter alone. If I leave I give up everything I have, I disrupt my daughters life completely and the only place I have to go is 40+ miles from work. I know I cant keep holding on forever but I feel like if I can tuff it out for another month or 6 weeks I will be so much better prepared. And who knows maybe in that time we can work it out and turn things around.<BR>

Your safety is the most important thing right now. Also give some thought to what you take with you in the event of an emergency. <P>I have a similar dilemma with my H in terms of how I'd like to behave vs. how I am behaving. My H is a passive controller to the point that it's emotional abuse. I reached a point where I found it necessary to protect myself from him emotionally. I've been in withdrawal since June. I recognize that it's less the optimal behavior. "Withholding" is one of the ways emotional abusers operate, and here I am doing just that. I'll tell you what, though, I've been gathering strength and moving ever so slowly to the point where I can set a boundary and enforce it. That's where I hope to be soon anyway. Putting ourselves in a position where we resort to behaviors that are reprehensible is all the more reason to put an end to the situation.

Thanks for the replies. Last night my H got mad and me for doing his chores. Not "thanks for washing and drying my laundry" but "now I got to put it up". He threw a fit because I saved him 2 steps but left him 1, when we both came to a POJA that laundering towels would be his chore. WEll it made me feel sick to my stomach, literally. He took it to be something I ate and told me to go on to bed he'd put out daughter to bed. She'd had a friend over and they left books and videos out. He screamed at her, threw things around, said he wouldn't read her a story cause she couldnt keep her room clean (she turned 4 3 weeks ago). Then he said "YOU ARE THE WORST PERSON" then added quietly "about cleaning a room" when I walked in. She was crying, of course, by then. I told him to go to bed I'd clean her room and read her a story and he told me I couldnt read her a story. I'll be Damned!!! Thats my baby and I'll read her a book if I want to. I suddenly dont care about how well I am doing at plan A. If I am careful I'll have enough money saved to be out of there by Oct 1. People that say couples should stay together because of the kids obviously weren't talking about situations like this. My daughter said a few days ago "Mommy I dont like daddy anymore, can we get a new one?" I told her that her daddy still loves her but what I felt saying was "can you settle for just having a mommy?" <p>[This message has been edited by what_do_i_do (edited September 06, 2001).]

get out of there... do you have parents or someone that you can turn too??? would you consider taking some of that savings and changing the locks and telling him that until he gets help (continues his meds and seeks counseling) he cannot and will not be allowed back into the house... <P>he is abusing you and the baby... and it could get much worse before it gets better... i don't really think you have the liberty of waiting until you get on your feet... you might need to look at other options... for the safety of you and your daughter...<P>i am a firm believer that if a man hits you once he will hit you again... i have had personal expeieince with this one...

idostyln, <BR>thanks so much for your concern, I have taken a second job (said was saving for christmas money) and will spend as much time as possible away from home and my daughter will be spending even more time than that with my mom or at her friends house. I moved here in january & havent met anyone i am close enough to stay with and if i kick my H out now rent will be due the first and I'll be out on my a**. I spent a very sleepless night waying all my options and realize I can avoid him 95% of the time while still living there and after 3 weeks of hiding everything i can and 2 paychecks from the sec job in hand, and knowing i have a stable second income, i can safely give most of what I saved to the attorney to get me out of this mess permanently.<P>Please keep me in your prayers and thanks so much to everyone on here for all the advise and support.

I can tell you've given careful thought to your options. I too am concerned for your safety. Such vile, ugly words he said to your daughter! I hope things do not escalate while you complete your plan for separation and divorce. <P>I too am working on a plan for separating from my H. I've agonized over the decision for a long time. Even though my (half-baked) plan is in the future, I was amazed just a while ago at how peaceful and even joyful I feel inside, just knowing that I've made a decision that will "stick." I will pray that you can keep a low enough profile in your own home for three more weeks that you may avoid the police coming to your home for a domestic violence complaint.

Perhaps you stated before where you plan on living next month, but it didn't stick in my brain if you did. If your location is uncertain, I'd suggest you get a PO Box while you're still at your present location. It's a heck of a lot easier to get a PO Box while you still have a street address than when you don't.

I plan on living right where I am now. He is going to have to go. Thats a huge part of my reluctance to get out now. I cant stand the idea of giving up my apartment. I am already having mail I dont want him to see sent to my mom's and I pick it up on weekends. <P>I tried to talk to him last night about going back to therapy and getting back on his medicine. I guess a last ditch effort but I felt like I had to try. He wont. He also said 'candy a$$, cry baby, titty baby' are not calling us names. HELLO!!! Somebody please tell me what they are? <P>Thanks so much for all the kind words and advise.

You are living in an abusive relationship, and both your actions and reasoning are text book examples of abused spouse syndrome. His actions are classic abuser behavior.<P>Anything he did in the way of counseling and medication was only just enough to get over the present crisis. Now he is back in the door and day by day slipping back into the old patterns of behavior. Sounds like you are too.<P>Two points. You need to get professional help for yourself, don't worry about getting him fixed, you can't change him. Second, run, don't walk to your local law enforcement agency and take whatever steps are necessary to get a protection from abuse order that will bar him from your home. In most states, the judge can issue a temporary support order in conjunction with this move. You have plenty of grounds for that order.<P>Prayers and stuff, <P>Bumper

Thanks Bumperii,<BR>My attorney advise it would take atleast 3 months to get a temp support order.<BR>I am seeing a therapist on my own. I was seeing her once a week and now only once a month but I am still going.<P>Question for you, Do most textbook cases happen so suddenly? That a kind loving caring person can suddenly have a 180 degree personality change in a matter of weeks seems so hard to believe. If I hadnt seen it happen before my very eyes.<BR>

What,<P>May I suggest that you get on the phone to that lawyer again and make sure you clearly understood him. It can take a couple months to get a restraining order that will bar you H from your home for a year, but he should be able to get you an emergency restraining order, or protection from abuse order today. If he can't, your local police most likely can tell you how to go about it. If you make a couple of phone calls, or even just look up Women Against Abuse on the Net, you can get started. And yes, you do need this protection from abuse today.<P>In answer to your question about abuse happening so suddenly. It doesn't happen suddenly, what happened was you became aware of the abuse suddenly, probably as the result of some physical attack, a shove or a punch. In fact your H has a long record and pattern of abusive behavior. You just weren't aware of it, or weren't paying attention to it because<B> YOU </B>knew just how kind and caring and wonderful he can be. The angry outbursts and name calling didn't just begin one day, he has been behaving like that all his life. And like most abused spouses you have been telling yourself a little lie: "I didn't think it was all that serious" <P>Now, here are my qualifications. I've been in law enforcement for 39 years. The common wisdom for most of those years was that we couldn't do anything to reduce spousal homicide rates. Several years ago , I was part of developing a program to combat spousal abuse, we used early intervention, zero tolerance. If it even looked like a person was attacked by a spouse, we made an arrest. Yes, we did get sued for some questionable arrests. Even some of the abused spouses attacked us. But we reduced the homicide rate in our city by <B>Forty Percent!!</B> That amounts to over two hundred lives a year that were saved.<P>And here is a rule you can take to the bank. In every case of domestic homicide, (spouses and children) there is a history of progressive abuse, anger, name calling, assualt, and finally murder.<P>If one can believe what you have posted here, you have already experienced three of those four steps. Both you and your child are in danger. <P>There is no "yes but" and there is no "what if". Get Help Today!<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

Quote from earlier post:<BR>In answer to your question about abuse happening so suddenly. It doesn't happen suddenly, what happened was you became aware of the abuse suddenly, probably as the result of some physical attack, a shove or a punch. In fact your H has a long record and pattern of abusive behavior. You just weren't aware of it, or weren't paying attention to it because YOU knew just how kind and caring and wonderful he can be. The angry outbursts and name calling didn't just begin one day, he has been behaving like that all his life. And like most abused spouses you have been telling yourself a little lie: "I didn't think it was all that serious" <BR>_________________________________________________________<P>Help me see it. It will sure make it easier to get out. What should I be trying to recall that would point out that he was always this way?<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <B>He also said 'candy a$$, cry baby, titty baby' are not calling us names </B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>These words did not suddenly appear in his vocabulary one day. They are learned behavior, most of us learn not to use this kind of language to others, adult or children. It is a safe bet your H was exposed to this kind of behavior in his (FOO) family of origin. The displays of anger didn't suddenly appear one day. <P>One of the real problems in dealing with an abused spouse, is the denial. Read your thread here, you will find that you have not only recounted a pattern abusive behavior, but seemed unaware of the seriousness of it at the same time. That is normal, no one wants to believe that she is an abused spouse. We think that this is something that only happens to other people, you know, like the trailer trash crowd.<P>When you become aware of it suddenly as you say, often times there are other things happening that help the abusive behavior to manifest itself. The sudden appearance may be associated with progression in alcohol abuse, drug abuse, infidelity and a dozen other occurances that influence behavior. But he basic abusive behavior pattern was always there, and not very far beneath the surface.<P>In cases of alcohol and particularly of drug abuse, we have difficulty getting spouses to cooperate, simply because they themselves have participated in some of this "recreational" use of drugs with the abusive spouse. They think they are being hypocritical. Nothing could be further from the truth.<P>Now, get thee to some professional help!<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

I know this is not your intention but your making me feel like an idiot. I have read and reread my threads and dont see where I ever mention any bad behavior before this spring. Or what it is you are reffering to as a "pattern". I recall withdrawl in March, only one angry outburst in April, the attack in May, his trying to make up in June and July and then in August was the first of the angry outburst and name calling. Did we argue before? Yes, everyone does. Not in one single event do I remember him every calling me names or using curse words. And I would never tolerate that in front of my child and certainly not directed to her. Maybe abusive to people when I wasnt around that I dont know about. Maybe you are right and there were events I didnt take seriously that were indicators of what he is capable of. Can you or anyone here point out any specific behavior patterns that I may not be relating to abuse that I should be? I realize his behavior is unacceptable and do intend to leave. But am blaming it on situation rather than personality and would cosider reconsile if I felt he had changed back to his old self. If anyone can help me to see that this is his personality and that changing back to his old self isnt a solution please pass on your advise and words of wisdom.

First off, the last thing I wanted to do here is to make you feel like an idiot. And for that I am truely sorry. If anything you are a highly intelligent person, but for the moment, maybe a little too smart for your own good.<P>We use a simple equation:<P>A man that will hit a woman = A man that will kill a woman.<P>Your response is the whole reason that you need professional help. You may have the horse before the cart. That you are writing "I would cosider reconcillation if I felt he had changed back to his old self..." is part of the madness. <BR> <BR><B>He isn't going to change back into his old self without intervention and proper therapy.</B> <P>But he sure might try to convice you that he has. <P>With professional help, the sequence usually goes something like this, 1. denial. 2. recognition of problem, 3. proper therapy, 4. profound change in attitude, 5. recovery, and 6. reconcillation. Many abused spouses try to do it by themselves; they try to jump from denial right to reconcillation. The cycle of abuse will continue until it is broken by intervention.<P>There aren't any shortcuts. There is no instant recovery. There is no instant experience. And do it yourself kits are notoriously ineffective. You just can't self diagnose and self treat something this serious. It is not a matter of whether or not you are going to deal with this abuse again, it is only a matter of when and to what degree.<P>You are not alone in your thinking. In the many years in the police department, I have dealt with your reaction a thousand times. The abused spouse says she is looking for help, but what she really wants is help on her terms, she wants someone to tell her that "she is right". And if she can't get help on her terms, she will ofter defend her abuser, and revert right back to playing her role in the cycle of abuse. And that is a role that many abused spouses refuse to believe even exists.<P>Here is the kicker. When the abused spouse refuses to get help, and most often they do refuse, sooner or later we will be back to deal with the problem. Sometimes that is with a protection order, sometimes with an arrest warrant, but all too often, with a body bag.<P>I hope you will give this some serious reflection and thought.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

I very well know he isnt going to go back to his old self without therapy and probably medication atleast for awhile. My question is that you seemed to be trying to make me see that his old self was also abusive and I was in denial about that, what do I look for to see it? I have no intentions of letting him convince me he has changed. My fear is he will go back to the doctor and therapist and they will eventually discharge him saying he has dealt with the situation. I will then try to reconcile only to later realize he is an abusive person and this was not a situation related thing. I know I am repeating myself and I apprecaite your repeatedly replying but you have failed to answer my question as to what would have indicated to me or what may i have been in denial about that i should have considered abuse? Situation depression is very curable. Clinical depression or a personality disporder like being an abusor I beleive is life long and can be controled but not cured. So how do I know if this is situational or lifelong and I have been in denial?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by what_do_i_do:<BR><B>My question is that you seemed to be trying to make me see that his old self was also abusive and I was in denial about that, what do I look for to see it? So how do I know if this is situational or lifelong and I have been in denial? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is not at all surprising that you have chosen to focus on this point. Of all the issues we have discussed today, there is nothing of any less importance, a history of abusive behavior needn't be established, at best it is a sidebar. How this man got to the point where he would raise his hands in anger to you is of no particular significance compared to the fact that <B>he did raise his hands to you in anger.</B><P>You sure aren't going to make this easy are you? I am not trying to make you see that his old self was abusive. That is a given. And I certainly don't mean to imply that there is some fault or shortcoming on your part for not being aware of it. You can't control other people. OK, one more time.<P>"'He also said 'candy a$$, cry baby, titty baby'. These words did not suddenly appear in his vocabulary one day. They are learned behavior, most of us learn not to use this kind of language to others, adult or children. It is a safe bet your H was exposed to this kind of behavior in his (FOO)family of origin." There is the history of abuse.<P>That is one of many things a professional will look for. Maybe you only heard these words one day, he has had them for his whole life. And they are abusive.<P>Candya$$ is a derogatory term with negative homosexual implications. Cry baby is a term right out of the abuser's cook book, negatively implying both immaturity and sissyification. (There is nothing wrong with my abusive behavior, only your reaction to it.) Tit is an insulting term referring to amammary organ. In this country, one does not refer to a woman's mammary organs as titties any more than one would refer to her pudenda as a c---. These are cruel, degrading words. <P>Now please, take the actions necessary to protect yourself and your child.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper<P>

Thank you, I think I now have a much clearer understanding of what you meant. I have been doing some research on other websites to answer my questions as well and have come up with some very useful and enlightening info. <BR>For anyone with similar questions to mine please check out <A HREF="http://www.divorceinkentucky.com" TARGET=_blank>www.divorceinkentucky.com</A> they have several good links to emotional, verbal and physical abuse info. <BR>Thanks again.