ID,<BR>Thanks for all of your help and the help and insight you have given others. I am amazed at your wisdom and insight into so many things. I suppose that is what makes this site so wonderful. We all benefit from the successes and mistakes of others.<P>Also, I want note specifically your comments about anger and bitterness. That is exactly where I know my wife is. Fact is, I wasnt there for her emotionally and at times physically. I was too caught up in my issues, my binge drinking and the finacial debacle I, in part, caused. She says she has forgiven me, but refuses ANY counseling for herself. However, when I asked if she would talk to my counselor to give "her side" she didnt want to at first, but eventually will. She said, I dont want it, and dont need it. She is ANGRY. It is up and down, some days nice, some days a VIPER. I do understand. She is content to say, You get help, you need it. I guess sometimes we are so busy plucking the twig out of our brothers (spouses) eye we cant see the log in our own.<P>I dont know how to gently help her get help. I dont beg or plead. Just ask have you talked with someone about that. She does - her dad and her single-mom friend, who has never been married and probably never will.

hey robc,<P>you know my stbx won't get any counseling either. i know he needs it bad for himself, but i can't force him. What i need to do is start praying that he will have the notion on his own to seek it... that is the only way he will do it, that is if he believes it came from his own thingking! you know how you guys are <P>NE way, i have just checked myself... I need to start praying that he ex takes himself for help and then i need to stop telling him what a sick b****** he is... <P>thanks for the kind words...<P>love kim.