Hi Bramblerose -<P>I read your post the other day and was so inspired that I keep rereading it. Being relatively new here I don't know much of your history, but your success is so uplifting! I guess that's why I have these questions for you. I have been separated from my husband for 7 months. I wish I had found this site before we separated. I have learned so much and I just think we would have had a better chance while he was still in the house - who knows. <P>I guess I feel hopeless. I have tried to Plan A it, but I haven't been consistent, it's so hard! I have filed for divorce mainly to protect myself and our four kids financially, but I really don't want one. <P>I know in my mind I can make it without him. I am actually doing quite well. I have survived the last seven months, which have included 5 and a half being pregnant with our fourth child and my father being diagnosed with cancer, yet my heart still aches whenever I see him. Sometimes I think it would be better if I never saw him.<P>Then I get angry. He had a very abusive and neglectful childhood which he has never really dealt with or recovered from. He has a drinking problem which has been the heart of all our problems. I know I wasn't the perfect wife, but I was hurt and frustrated. Plus he even admits that I had good reason. I guess it just makes his affair hurt even worse. After 10 years of marriage standing by his side through everything, I feel abandoned. I really think that this affair is just another in a string of many quick fixes to help heal the unhappines and insecurity he feels inside. It's like he'd rather run away than face the demons inside him and he seems oblivious to the pain he's causing me and the kids. <P>I'm going to really try Plan A hard again. I have a tendency to get impatient and pushy when I feel I am losing something and I am fighting like hell to keep those feeling in check. <P>My friends and family would faint if they even knew I wanted him back, but I just know we could be happy if he'd come back and try. Any suggestions?<P>Once again, congratulations on your success!<P>K

Wow, your story sounds so much like mine!<P>You said that your H has a drinking problem. So does mine. Do you go to Al-Anon? Al-Anon won't fix him or fix your marriage, but it will fix your life!<P>My H also has an unresolved abusive childhood. So did I for that matter. My father is still running around doing all the stuff he used to do. I don't have a relationship with him.<P>So you could say that my H and I were attracted to each other for all the WRONG reasons. We've been making each other miserable ever since.<P>I wasn't able to implement Plan A without a strong focus on the 12 steps. There's a post around here somewhere titled Detaching with Love - that was how I had to approach my H.<P>I had to face MY demons, my fears, and work on the person that I was. I learned how to do it regardless of what the outcome would be - in otherwords, I looked hard at myself and decided that I didn't like what I saw, and decided to change those things - and it had nothing to do with my marriage.<P>I did a mini 4th step on my relationship with my husband. I took the Love Buster questionnaire, and reversed the questions so that they asked ME how I had treated my husband. After reading my answers, I was appalled at how I had treated my husband. I learned how to treat him with kindness, respect, and without judgement. I let go of him, really let go and started living for me.<P>It doesn't sound like a lot. But it transformed the type of person I was.<P>Just the other day, my H mentioned something - and after I responded, he replied: Do you realize how much you have changed? 2 years ago you would have responded MUCH differently! It was a good feeling to get that feedback from him.<P>But let me assure you, there was NOTHING I could have done to get his attention while he was fully involved in the A. We were separated 18 months total. His affair was an EA that started several months before he moved out and turned it into a PA.<P>I guess, in some ways I'm lucky that my H is an alcoholic. He isn't attracted to emotionally healthy women!! <P>So....it wasn't that I attracted him away from the OW...the reality is that she love busted so badly that I started to look darn good. And then, when my H began to think more clearly and look at my changes, and his conscience began to cause him more and more trouble to closer we got to the finality of divorce...thats when the real turn around happened.<P>He's still drinking. That gives me the biggest doubts and fears. I do think, that one day, unless he gets help for his disease, he'll do this to me again.<P>But this is what I have chosen, and so I am working at it, and he is for now, working at it too. And we have alot of very good days. We have lots of communication, and very few fights. It's better than its ever been our entire marriage.<P>The best lesson that I learned out of it all was that divorce was NOT the end of my life. That I could and would be happy. That I could and would survive, and that I actually liked myself. I also learned that my husband's truths did not have to be mine....that his rejection did NOT mean that I was an unvaluable, unworthy person. I learned to put God where He belonged in my life - after discovering that I had put my H in that spot. <P>I hope anything I said here helps. These are the answers that worked for me...I have no idea if they work for anyone else!!<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Thanks for responding BrambleRose-<P>Although I didn't come from an abusive childhood I was raised by a perfectionist and nothing I ever did ever was quite good enough. When I met my husband I was attracted to his "wild-side" but I think more importantly I was attracted to the fact that he needed me and I needed to be needed. <P>Don't get me wrong. We had a lot of good things in our relationship, but the underlying problems never went away. At first I just put up with it, but over time I got so frustrated and started majorly LBing myself. In a way I lost a lot of the good things about me because I couldn't understand how he could let his problems destroy us and our family if he really loved us. I was really hurt and when you are hurt you tend to lash out and try to hurt the one who is hurting you. I asid so many hurtful things and I never let past mistakes of his be forgotten. I threatened divorce a lot. I now know this is not what to do, but what can I say you live and learn. Never in my life did I want him to leave, I just wanted him to deal with his issues so we could work on ours. Although I thought at the time that I hated him I realize now that I never stopped loving him, but my feelings of anger and resentment clouded my true feeling.<P>When he met the OW she was everything that I wasn't at the time. She was a good listener and a friend. To the best of my knowledge she isn't really screwed up herself, but she is very young and naive (she's only 21). Also from her own admission she has never really had a serious relationship before so I'm sure his dependency on her along with his willingness to leave his wife and four children is overwhelmingly flattering and addictive. <P>Now however I am noticing stress on his part although he tries not to show it. Now that they are "together" there is more pressure and just as she is wanting more from him with our temporary family court orders while we await divorce he is able to give her less. He has less time and money. Also since I filed for divorce he is really feeling left out of our family. Prior to my filing he still had a key and was coming and going as he pleased. I put a stop to this because I said it was to confusing for me and the kids and at the time since he's chosen not to work on our relationship that he wouldn't have the freedom I'd given him. He is stubborn, but I know it is weighing heavily on him. To further perpetuate problems for them she is away at college 3 hours away from us. With school she has less time to come home and he doesn't have time or money to go there either. <P>So what am I doing? I have decided to Plan A with a vengence. As hard as it is I am trying to simply be his friend and not push. I am already seeing some benefits although I don't know if they'll last. I figure with her away it is my best time to prove to him I've changed and will start by being a friend. I'll keep you posted on my progress.<P>Once again I am so happy for you!<P>K

I hope I'm not intruding on your thread bramblerose/still reeling, just thought I'd chime in.<P>Also married to an alcoholic, he is in recovery, but has not recovered yet. Was a better father/husband when he was actively drinking. He is extremely withdrawn now.<P>Still reeling, I'm concerned that you do not understand the disease of alcoholism yet. I just want to point out that Dr. Harley does not recommend that wives of alcoholics plan A their H's while they are actively drinking because their first love is drinking and they cannot truly love another like emotionally healthy people can. He has some good Q&A's on alcoholism and addictions. I am just concerned that you are setting yourself up for another fall. I'd be curious on BrambleRose's take on this as well.<P>I also second the recommendation for Al-Anon. Has has such a huge impact on my life and gives me such comfort and security every meeting I go to.

It's funny, my H went back to his OW when I served him divorce papers. It was in my opinion, the best thing that ever happened to us. <P>You see, I completely stopped talking about "us", stopped talking about the affair, stopped blaming him for everything, and just simply dealt with "today". <P>I talked to him about my plans for the future - after our divorce. I insisted that he take the kids every other weekend (after getting him to promise in writing that he'd keep the kids away from OW). In my plan A, I let him come and go as he wished. I didn't pressure him other than to insist that he be available by phone and that he deal with financial matters with me. (He did a disappearing act while with OW and didn't answer his cell phone - I told him that the next time I would call her and ask for him) <P>I was friendly, and did my best to be accomodating if his schedule needed my flexibility. <P>He kept coming around, and I kept filling his need for conversation...and recreation...and even some SF.<P>In the background, the OW was showing her true colors. I had no idea what was going on, but now I'm finding out slowly. Honestly, I don't know why she wanted him!!! She was trying to remake him!!! And I had learned to stop the selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements...so my H came to believe that I loved him for who he was, and that she didnt. <P>Just last night, he expressed excitement over an upcoming movie release, and I smiled and told him how much I loved his ability to be excited and to enjoy things like that. He hugged me, and said...Liz thought I was immature about stuff like this.<P>Hmmph. Well, stupid woman, she didn't appreciate his joy of life? His lack of jaded sophistication about certain things? His clear enjoyment of simple things?<P>His OW did a number of other things. A massive boob job that turned him off was one thing. Her insistence that he not spend the night under the same roof with me was another. (Last week, he mentioned this with a roll of his eyes - she didn't think I should spend the night with my own wife and kids, can you believe it?) She put ALOT of pressure on him to do a number of things to prove that he was committed to her...things he wasn't willing to do (buying a car together, moving in together, etc).<P>She was very resentful rather than supportive, when he told her that he had to spend time with family, or spend money to care for us, This bothered him a great deal.<P>So, though I didn't know it, my Plan A was having a HUGE effect on him. It wasn't until 4 months later that he asked to come home though.<P>It all just takes TIME. And the affair does have to die a natural death. If his OW hadn't been such a lovebusting wench, I dont think we'd be back together. He'd have stayed with her, because I was making it easy - I was doing all the footwork for divorce.<P>Plan A of sorts is definitely possible. Hang in there and keep us updated!<P>Hi <B>married</B> ~ Yes, Dr. Harley feels that one can not work on a marriage if one spouse is an active alcoholic.<P>Unfortunately life isn't that sweet and simple.<P>Dr. Harley's definition of alcoholic is someone who won't give up drinking for the sake of the marriage.<P>In AA and Al-Anon, we learn that alcoholism is a self-diagnosed disease. My H insists that he may have a drinking problem "by other people's definitions", but that he isn't addicted. I think he is, BUT, by Harley definitions AND by 12 step definitions, it seems to me that its also a disrespectful judgement on my part to tell my H that he is wrong about his own self-assessment.<P>I know that I qualify for Al-Anon, because of MY reaction to my H's drinking - not because he is an alcoholic.<P>At the very least - my H medicates his problems with booze. Does he start drinking and find himself unable to stop? No. Has he had DUI's? No. Does he get violent, have blackouts? No. In some ways, he has very little in common with any of the stories in the Big Book of AA. But then again, sometimes, I can clearly see where things apply to him. But my H hasn't agreed that he has a problem, and doesn't see it my way. I have to put that problem into God's hands.<P>I go to Al-Anon to cope with my own reactions, not only to him, but to the other people in my life, including my parents and siblings.<P>I am working on my marriage with someone that I consider to be an active alcoholic WS. He put together and is following a plan however that was acceptable to me to putting our marriage back together. We have a better relationship right now, we both agree, than we have ever had.<P>So in my situation, because of our children, and because he became willing to put into action his promises, we are working on it.<P>One day at a time, that's all I focus on. For today, things are ok. For today, he's doing what I need him to do. And I'm discovering that I had in some ways only viewed my H as an alcoholic, and that it colored many of my judgements about him. When I put that aside, I also find many valuable, worthwile things about my H that I had ignored. He's good for me, in many many ways.<P>And while still drinking....he's become a better husband and father. <P>My recovering alcoholic sister says that perhaps what has happened to my H is that he has decided to bargain with himself...that if he can fix the rest of his life, then he won't have to stop drinking. Perhaps. I don't know. He's doing a pretty darn good job of fixing things though right now.<P>I have to admit, when I focus on the future, I want to just despair. I fear so many things related to what I understand about alcoholism. But I keep reminding myself that I can't let fear to rule my life, and that for today, things are ok.<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

<B>I am working on my marriage with someone that I consider to be an active alcoholic WS. He put together and is following a plan however that was acceptable to me to putting our marriage back together. We have a better relationship right now, we both agree, than we have ever had.</B><P>And it's the opposite for me. My H has gotten sober but our relationship is in worse shape than ever. There was never an affair in our case. It just kinda sucks to realize that drinking wasn't causing all the problems in our marriage. That my spouse may just be a plain jerk dedicated to keeping himself happy and screw his wife/kids in the process. I am trying to give him time and keep the expectations low, but it really hurts to see my 4 year old asking why Daddy isn't around or spending time with him like he promises.<P><B>So in my situation, because of our children, and because he became willing to put into action his promises, we are working on it.</B><P>The only reason we are still together is the children. Am still giving him a chance for the children's sake, in case he does ever move off of Step 3 and become active and involved in his life. Also I am no further in recovery than he is, so I think I need to give myself time to recover as well.<P><B>One day at a time, that's all I focus on. For today, things are ok. For today, he's doing what I need him to do. And I'm discovering that I had in some ways only viewed my H as an alcoholic, and that it colored many of my judgements about him. When I put that aside, I also find many valuable, worthwile things about my H that I had ignored. He's good for me, in many many ways.</B><P>I think that's great! Maybe your H will crash down later, but you will be prepared in that case anyways.<P><B>And while still drinking....he's become a better husband and father. </B><P>I'm sure you know your case may be the exception and not the rule. Nevertheless, I am very glad to hear of it! And I appreciate your taking the time to share your story with me.

Dear Bramble and Married-<P>Thanks to both of you for the great insights. I am going to try a Al-Anon meeting, not for him, but for me. In the past I have been told to go to them but never did. I guess my attitude was why should I? Afterall, he's the one with the problem. During our separation I have come to see how much it had become my problem too and how I was although not intetionally making it worse with my put downs and demands. I admit that I do not like the person I'd become when I was with him.<P>I too don't know that he is a die hard alchoholic. I do know that because of his abusive past that he never learned to cope with anything. As a result of this he has a real problem taking responsibility. The end result - when the pressure gets too much he runs and drowns his sorrows. By the time he moved out things were so tense between us that he was drowning a lot of things and it wasn't pretty.<P>Although I filed for divorce I am in no hurry to rush it through. As stated before I did it to protect myself financially. <P>There are so many great things about him. He is an awesome Dad and friend. The problem is that he doesn't really like himself so he looks to outside gratification to give him the confidence that should come from within. After much thought I have started to really look out for myself, yet be friendly and non-judgemental to him.<P>This weekend was his with the kids well at least the three oldest. As part of the temporary court agreement he is to take them every other weekend. He lives with a friend and we both agree that the house is not suitable for the kids. Up until I filed he had just spent his weekends at our house but now in an effort to give me some down time and have him take some responsibility he has to take them somewhere else. This is difficult for him to accomodate and he is bitter. This weekend he had nowhere to go. Before he could even ask I offered him our house and said that I had plans. <P>The result? I think things went well. We were both very friendly and I didn't push anything. I also kept the details of what I did from him. I think he was caught off guard. I think he expects me to plead for our marriage and be pushy. By enjoying myself and keeping things friendly but not clingy to him I think I got to him. I told him that I'd like to be friends but that it's a two way street and it can't just be when it's convenient to him. I also told him that I really care about him, but while he's away and still involved with the OW that I will not just put life on hold. It seemed to get to him so I hope I can keep it up. As I said before I think the OW is starting to make demands, etc. The table have now turned, it is my turn to be the supportive, non-clinging friend. He's got a lot more to loose with me and maybe he'll realize it. If not, I'm on my way to healing. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again both of you for the great advice and for sharing your stories it helps more than you'll ever know.<P>K

Still This has been a great thread and I want to thank you for it. I learn so much from reading the response from BRose to you. <BR>I wanted to congradulate you on this weekend. I truely think that a little mystery in your activities creates interest and it sounds like this is helping. You feel better about yourself too.<BR>I have been going to Ala-non and I believe it has been life changing. I may have explained to you that my Daughter is an OW and that is why I'm here. She is also young,25 but the affair started when she was 23 and in a really volnerable stage in her life. Her MM also has 4 young boys.<BR>This has been the hardest thing we have gone through as a family. We are only now starting to heal and I do believe the A is either cooling off or over, I really don't know for sure. His man has a lot to loose as he is a Morman Bishop. <BR>Anyway, since she is so young and in college, have you considered having someone talk to her parents? It really hasn't helped that we know and this is a long story, but I was thinking that her parents might have some influance<BR> on her.I think that if I had been going to Ala-non at he time I/we would have handled it better and that it would have been over sooner. <BR>Just a thought.<BR>You are really doing great though and I truely wish you well.<P>------------------<BR>Marry

Gottruth-<P>Thanks for responding. It is so wonderful to hear yet another person's perspective. I feel for your family. It must be so hard for you to watch your daughter go through this.<P>About your question of having someone talk to her parents, they know and are quite upset about it. I know at first they threatened to cut off financial support of her if she didn't end things, but she called their bluff. From what I know now, they don't aprrove of the relationship, but feel helpless to stop it. Therefore, they have backed off because they don' want to strain their relationship with her anymore than it is. I guess they have hopes that by their not pressuring her that she'll come to her senses more quickly and the relationship will end. I really feel for them. They, like you are yet another victim of the whole cycle.<P>For everyone's sake I hope your daughter's relationship is cooling off. I will keep you in my prayers.<P><BR>K<P><BR>

Gottruth-<P>Thanks for responding. It is so wonderful to hear yet another person's perspective. I feel for your family. It must be so hard for you to watch your daughter go through this.<P>About your question of having someone talk to her parents, they know and are quite upset about it. I know at first they threatened to cut off financial support of her if she didn't end things, but she called their bluff. From what I know now, they don't aprrove of the relationship, but feel helpless to stop it. Therefore, they have backed off because they don' want to strain their relationship with her anymore than it is. I guess they have hopes that by their not pressuring her that she'll come to her senses more quickly and the relationship will end. I really feel for them. They, like you are yet another victim of the whole cycle.<P>For everyone's sake I hope your daughter's relationship is cooling off. I will keep you in my prayers.<P><BR>K<P><BR>