I am a committed Christian and have been studying Dr. Harleys principles and read 3 of his books. I would like to ask those of you who are Christian people how you see these principles to coexist with your faith in Jesus(the Joint Agreement,etc). I find myself in conflict with some of the ideas promoted, not finding a biblical support for them. In marital conflict/disagreement, does the Bible support "mutual submission"(which closely relates to the Joint Agreement Policy)? Is separation supported Biblically? There are other questions.But these to start.I seek a Biblically based marital counseling situation. Are there any Christians who can give me their perspective on these principles? Obadiah <P>------------------<BR>

I would suggest that you put your questions directly to Dr. Harley. That way you can get the straight answer. Personally I think it is fruitless to ask numerous Christians since what is "biblical" will vary from one to the next. For example you ask is separation biblical. Well, I can't think of any place in the Bible where separation is specifically mentioned. But there are a lot of things that aren't specifically mentioned in the Bible that can still be infered from the general thrust and context of the text.<BR>It is pretty clear from scripture that God does not like or want divorce. Yet he recognized the hardness of men's hearts and allowed for it, particularly since under the Old Testament circumstances a woman could be placed in a very grave situation if hard hearted men had total control. <BR>I've read Dr. Harley's books also. Perhaps some of his ways of dealing with marital problems aren't the highest biblical standard. But think about the sort of times we live in. It's a rare church that even takes biblical standards seriously enough to transcend the little world inside their particular four walls and apply them with consistency to every area of life. Even if Dr. Harley's principles aren't the best application of Christian faith they may be the best that can be achieved at present in this spiritual wasteland. Maybe, maybe not. I'm not saying one way or the other. I am saying delve into it a little deeper and make a serious attempt to determine for yourself what is "biblical". <BR>Speaking from experience all of us Chrisitians need oportunities to modify (in the sense of shedding dead weight, not compromising what is right) our view of<BR>what is biblical as well as scrutinizing another's view. Use your questions about Dr. Harley's work - and they are legitimate questions - to evaluate yourself as well as him. That is a prescription I've found to work well for myself.

Obadiah,<BR> Paul does speak of mutual submission, see 1 Corinthians 10-12. and also chapter 7. Wives are supposd to be submissive to husbands AS UNTO THE LORD, remember HIS actions, the way HE treated people, if a man does not treat his wife that way, then she has no reason to wish to submit to him. Submission is never ment to be hard if a man treats his wife as the LORD expects, then it is how she will respond to him<P>------------------<BR>Deb<BR>-------------------------<BR>WE are the champions my friends, and we'll keep on fighting till the end<BR>Queen - We are the champions

Obadiah--<P>The world in which we live (especially as married folks) can be really confusing at times. The good thing is, that we do not serve an ignorant or naive God. <P>I personally am not a fan of separation. I have seen too many couples try it and fail miserably! They say they need space or time away from each other and that time continues on through to divorce court. Regardless of how I feel my God has the final say. In 1 Corinthians 7:10 He says that we are permitted to separate but we must live holy (that means no noogie) until the two of you are reconciled.<P>As far as submission goes...well, that's a horse of a different color. OK, I'll use myself as an example. My husband is a pastor so you know that he is a man of God. However, our marriage is well....NOT! We don't have sex (haven't had it in seven months), he rarely talks to me (without is being about the church or its members, and of course to criticize me)and spend time together? Are you kidding? <P>No, it's not because I don't want to. I do. He doesn't. How do I handle this? PRAYER AND FASTING, HONEY! I've tried the affair thing (yes, I had a brief affair with another man). God whipped me for sport. I tried not being submissive....more arguments which I DON'T need and more lashings from the Almighty. It took a while but after spending countless hours on my face, my everloving God spoke to my spirit and placed obedience, submission and holiness within. <P>No, I am not "happy" but I have the Joy of the Lord inside. It makes me feel better knowing that what I do is pleasing in His sight. And I hold on to the faith that God is going to one day show my husband how to properly love and care for his wife.<P>Basically, being a submissive wife is a matter between the wife and God. As far as the husband goes, God instructs the husband to love his wife as Christ does the church. With Christ-like love comes some form of submission and love and kindness. Being the head does not always mean being the tyrrant. True love is being submissive. No, not wimpy....there is a difference. God Bless!

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[censored]:<P>Well, we're all entitled to our own opinions, but I gotta tell ya: I've been around the MB site since last fall, and I've NEVER seen even his staunchest supporters idolize Dr. Harley as God. He makes no secret that he is a Christian. But IMHO, his principles, while founded in some basic Christian tenets, are not Christian-specific, that is, they are not saturated in Biblical references, and thus they can be used by persons of MANY faiths.<P>On the other hand, I HAVE seen Dr. Harley virtually DEMONIZED by people who disagreed with a sentence or two of his!<P>You're right, Dr. Harley's got no corner on the Truth. But he's got a WHOLE lot more training and clinical experience than any of us do! Well MOST of us anyway! ;-)

[censored],<BR> I must tell you that your post was very insightful, much of what you said is what the minister who counseled with my husband and I after his latest affair had to say,<BR>concerning a mans accountability before God as opposed to a womans in a marriage relationship.<BR> My husband is not a Christian (yet, Acts 16:31 for me!!), I was converted after our marriage. So which of us is more accountable, me as the Christian, or him as the man? Just a question.<BR>Sorry Obadiah for asking on your thread. <P>------------------<BR>Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<BR>

[censored],<P>As a catholic man, I find your post pretty troubling, especially considering you are a minister. Your reasoning and advice are very shallow and one-sided: apparently God still has some work to do with you. And I'd caution you to not counsel couples with marital problems: your reasoning and approach (from what I can tell) would likely lead to division and isolation, not marital recovery.<P>The reason that the MB philosophy is thrown around here so often is that this is a MARRIAGE BUILDERS website. While other opinions are welcome here, the little section you see before you come in here asks that you be familiar with the principles and have read the Q&A's before participating. I've never seen Dr. Harley referred to as god. Harley's methods are, for the most part, very traditional. A lot of what Harley believes and teaches is deeply rooted in his Christian beliefs. But this program is behavioral-based, and will work regardless of religious orientation. And that's one of the beauties in it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am now convinced that when a marriage fails or is in trouble...... 99.9% of the time it is ALWAYS the man's fault! After all, God established the man as the head and to whom much is given, much is required!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I suggest that you think about the above statement; and reflect on it. It seem that Satan is working through you, not God. I hope that you can recognize the difference.

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as a committed christian, seems to me you have no choice but to find answers to your questions and guidance in dealing with your marital issues in the bible. this board is covered with people struggling to find a christian based answer that will allow them to do what they want and still be ok with their higher power. i don't think i've seen any of them win the battle. they usually fade away and, as i imagine, do what they wanted in the first place and just feel guilty. seems to me you're simply looking for a loophole. good luck, your in for a long battle, full of hand whringing, anguish, and frustration.

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[censored]:<P>Do you mean like taking a pet theory, like say, 99.9% of all failed marriages are the MAN'S fault, taking scripture out of context to support your position, and then damning anyone who would challenge your questionable logic, while cloaking yourself in self-rightousness?<P>Is that what you mean?

kKKKKCccAnnnnnnnnnnttttttttttttttWe just all gi ge get alonnnnnnngggggggg? You guys are hilarious.<P>Just wanted to reply to Doug and [censored]. I know nothing of this supposed idolatry of Dr. Harley and Company. Good grief, Im sure they put their pants on one leg at a time as we all do. I didnt join this forum to argue and see who can out do the other. Im simply seeking input and help to heal a hurting sin-full marriage.<BR>The idea that 99.9% of a marriages failure is SO much to put on a man. Its a very rigid,outdated idea,perhaps.More than I suppose God would...have you asked Him lately if that is really fair considering their are two(2) sinful willful individuals in this quotient? But that is not what I am here to argue.<BR>I guess a lot of my questioning of the mutual submission question came from listening to a program with R.C.Sproul whom I respect his biblical insights. He really had good biblical basis and rational for Mutual submission being a concept outside of Gods original design for husband and wife.<BR> <BR>Unfortunetely, I did not hear the whole message and have just ordered the tape to hear it in full context. So, to be continued.<P> Please, lets have a conversation that keeps with the subject and cuts the bull...I'd like to hear from believers and others who dont just want to win an arguement. Thanks. Obadiah<P>------------------<BR>

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Hi Doug, Princess,<P> Haven't been to this forum in a while - but see you're still in here sluggin! Good to see it.<P>Princess - sorry to read that las post - sounds like things aren't getting much (any) better. E-mail me if you feel like sharing.<P>Val<BR>(yup, still the husband!)<BR>