Well, this is what I get for posting today that I'm "a long way from Plan B." I'll post here, and over in EN and A/B and get as much advice as I can, 'cause Lord knows I need it now.<P>If you don't know my convoluted story yet, well, it's too long to summarize sensibly anymore. The basics are we're separated, I'm in Plan A and since I see her every day, it's been going as well as possible. I suspect an EA, but haven't confronted yet because I have only the scantest proof. Since she moved out six weeks ago, I've seen nothing of EA guy. I didn't see him much when she was still here- what I mean is, she didn't move out and then immediately shack up with him, or anything. <P>My wife is going to a wedding tomorrow. I'm not invited. Of course, she could have invited me along, but she didn't. I understand it, but the kids don't: I overheard our daughter asking my wife why not once- "well, he doesn't need to go... [bride] is my friend." She's taking the kids to the ceremony, which will be a new-agey thing at the local Renaissance Festival, then bringing them home, and going to the reception at the bride and groom's house without them.<P>Giving the kids baths tonight, our son (sort of working it out in his head) says "Mom, and me, and [daughter] are going to the wedding tomorrow, but you're not going." Daughter, from the tub, says "[EA guy] is going. He knew [bride] a long time ago, even before she had children." <P>If he knew her a long time ago, it was only through my wife- he had no other link to her and has had no other since. He's obviously there as her guest.<P>So, advice needed: is this it, folks? Plan B dead ahead?

DBT,<P>First of all, I am sorry for your latest news!! Before you launch yourself full speed ahead into Plan B, it sure would be nice to hear what your wife has got to say for herself, but how you could go about getting anything out of her, I don't know. If you blow her out of the water before the wedding, she and OM will have all day to conjure up some hairbrain story that will be semi-believable.<P>Do you have any thoughts on how you will approach her and what you'll ask/say?<P>I'm thinking about you--good luck!!

(((((((((((((dabigtrain))))))))))))))))<P>It just isn't fair, is it? How come they get to have all the fun?<P>I was angry that my H took OW out with the kids, to a fair...I had thought he might ask me to go (yeah, for a fleeting second) but he already had surrogate mummy lined up. I know having your kids in the same room as OM for the wedding must also bug you.<P>You think your W and OM had a past connection, or that they're making that up...I must be fogged cos that bit isn't clear to me.<P>Clearly your w is in the fog...what will her friends think? I suppose she is looking for approval. Well, she might be surprised.<P>She might also give more than a passing thought to what is going through the kids minds. But of course, the fog again.<P>I would not have allowed my kids to go out with OW if I had known beforehand. Are you perhaps in that frame of mind? Telling her that you know who she will be with and it is not acceptable for the kids to be witness to that? If you do, she'll probably give you a lot of balony about it being too late to NOT have them go cos of the preparations, etc, etc.<P>I think I'm reaching into the dark here...I know it's a bad thing for you, but I am having trouble giving any costructive comment! Have I misunderstood things?<P>

Big, I am sorry to hear this possibility. If you read my latest three threads you will see that I found out my wife was potentially in an EA or PA and it may have been part of the reason she separated. I confronted her, she denied at first, but when I dropped his name, long silence. The sad part is lying. She lied before she left, she is lying now. You dont lie to someone you love. Perhaps you should lovingly confront her after the wedding. You may want to stay inn Plan A because she may not have fully committed to the EA. I am going to stay in Plan A for a little while longer. If she fully commits to the OM, I will Plan B. This could be her trying to decide between you and OM. This, of course, sucks bigtime. I feel like a piece of furniture at an auction. Keep me posted

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RobC:<BR>Perhaps you should lovingly confront her after the wedding. You may want to stay in Plan A because she may not have fully committed to the EA. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If and when I confront her, I'll have to do it as lovingly as I can- either because I'll be continuing plan A, or because I'll be switching to plan B and won't want her last memory of us as a fight.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This, of course, sucks bigtime. I feel like a piece of furniture at an auction. Keep me posted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks. I've been following your tale of woe, as well, and wish you the best. You still got a grip on yourself?<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nina too:<BR>I was angry that my H took OW out with the kids, to a fair...I had thought he might ask me to go (yeah, for a fleeting second) but he already had surrogate mummy lined up. I know having your kids in the same room as OM for the wedding must also bug you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I never expected to be invited to this wedding, so that's not a part of it. It's actually in a very public place- I have an evil urge to crash it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You think your W and OM had a past connection, or that they're making that up...I must be fogged cos that bit isn't clear to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>They were neighbors, in the late 80s, before she and I met. EA guy was breaking up with his first spousal equivalent about that time. My wife introduced me to him as an "old friend" when he looked her up again in Jan 2000. <P>I think I'll call him the Y2K Bug from now on.<P>Anyway, I took "old friend" at face value at the time, but now I wonder what their connection was back then. Anyway, after being dumped by spousal equivalent 1, he went to spousal equivalent 2 not long afterwards, and he and my wife didn't see each other for 12 years.<P>Think she's got some self-esteem issues? A man ignores her for 12 years, then calls her up, and she is ready to drop a man who has loved her for 11 years for him. If someone I pined for and dropped me 12 years ago called me up, I'd introduce her to my wife and kids and show her how good my life had been without her, not turn it upside down for her!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Clearly your w is in the fog...what will her friends think? I suppose she is looking for approval. Well, she might be surprised.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Remember, her friends right now are mostly divorced or single. She's not likely to parade this guy in front of any of her married friends. And people have lost the idea of disapproving of a friend's actions while maintaining the friendship- these days, people think that's "not supportive, judgemental," etc. So I don't expect a backlash from the friends.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would not have allowed my kids to go out with OW if I had known beforehand. Are you perhaps in that frame of mind? Telling her that you know who she will be with and it is not acceptable for the kids to be witness to that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This has come up too quickly for me to think through the implications of doing that. I'm thinking hard about it this morning, but I don't know if I have that strength right now. The kids would also be sorely disappointed- they're looking forward to throwing rose petals. But I don't know what my wife's reaction would be, and I'm not sure I'm prepared for all the possibilities.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think I'm reaching into the dark here...I know it's a bad thing for you, but I am having trouble giving any costructive comment! Have I misunderstood things?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, you haven't misunderstood, and thanks for responding. It helps, even when you don't think you've said anything constructive.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wifeofcop:<BR>Before you launch yourself full speed ahead into Plan B, it sure would be nice to hear what your wife has got to say for herself, but how you could go about getting anything out of her, I don't know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're right, and I don't know either. But I'm going to get all the reactions from friends, counsellors, family, etc. that I can before I do anything. As I posted to RobC, I want the "confrontation" to be a part of Plan A- if I have to go to B, that will be afterwards. But how exactly to do that, I don't know right now.<P>

Well, from MY friends right now, they are appalled at my H, and they don't for the most part, even know about OW. Even his family is disgusted at him...so do expect that she will receive some backlash!!!<P>Ew yuck, you think she is rekindling a past relationship? Some people are stupid...I had a guy friend who took up with a single mum of three...when father of first two reappeared, she was off light a shot...yes she was stupid. He ended up giving her another baby, and he left again. <P>You know, there is some justice in this world!!!<P>You sound like you ar so on top of this... I really admire you. I wish I could be as strong.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nina too:<BR>You sound like you ar so on top of this... I really admire you. I wish I could be as strong.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't feel very strong (maybe because I only got about five hours sleep each of the last three nights). She came and picked up the kids- I smiled and waved. Once they were gone, I broke down.<P>How can she hurt me so much, and I still love her?<P>Then I thought more about my daughter's comment. I'm trying to figure out how she got the info that EA guy was coming- why would his name come up? They're not driving out there together. She's the one who has been asking my wife why I'm not going- she asked me again as I was brushing her hair after swimming lessons, and I said simply "I wasn't invited." She is very stubborn, and will ask a question over and over if she doesn't like the answer she gets. I'm sure she must have asked my wife ten times in the last five days.<P>So, would my wife have actually said "no, your dad isn't going, [EA guy] is going with us?" Even given that he's a family friend- [daughter] would recognize the name from the times he used to come over for dinner- that's really beyond the pale. I'm hoping, for everyone's sake, it was something like this:<P>Daughter: if Dad's not going, I'm not going!<BR>Mom: you'll have fun, lots of people you know will be there, like [bride's daughters] and [somebody else] and [EA guy] and [another name]<P>Otherwise, my poor daughter is terribly confused right now- why isn't Dad here, and why is [EA guy] hanging around? <P>And of course, thinking of how confused she must be about all of this- the separate houses, the nights without Mom, the other nights without me, and going to this exciting wedding now but with this weird cloud over it- is enough to make me break down again. <P>I have a feeling my phone bill is going to be steep over the next few days- I'm going to be calling a bunch of people for support/advice/ventilation.

Dabigtrain,<P>It's funny you should mention that about daughter saying EA is going. When i read in your first post, your daughter mentioning this, I just thought to myself "Why would a daughter bring up one certain person is going? That comment is so weird." There are many reasons why she did that popped in my head, but they all involved either wife telling friend "oh yea EA is going to be there" or EA calling or stopping by and saying I will be there and daughter overhearing. Very strange! Out of all the people in the world who would be there, it makes no sense for your daughter to single out one person. BTW, how old is your daugher?<P>ANNA<BR>

Hey Big,<BR>Really sorry you are down! Man, I am exhausted. Of course it has nothing to do with moving my self and my brother last weekend, only to have and move him into another apartment yesterday. I will be moving again next Friday. Dang, If I never have to move again, it will be too soon. Anyway, I think you have the right idea. Confront within the bounds of Plan A. I think it suprised my wife that I knew and that I handled it without ripping her a new one. I was proud of that. Saw her at the football and soccer game this morning. Not much talk, just handed me some bills she needed help with (suprise, suprise, RobC the walking ATM). Anyway, got me a nice new apartment. It is huge. Wife asked me to babysit tonight. I was hesitant, but agreed. What the heck, there is not one dang thing I can do about her possibly seeing this guy. I am not going to stop being a great dad and decent husband because of this clown. I would then be the loser. The fog is thick here in SC. Anyway, I am hanging in there, working out, working alot (Mil base), so not much sleep here either. You hang tough. You are doing all of the right things. I will continue on MY plan - screw her! If it works out great, if it doesnt, I still win because I will be better for it<P>"Good judgement comes from experience; Experience comes from bad judgement" You get the picture. Keep your chin up my friend! You can email if you like: biggunrc@hotmail.com

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dabigtrain:<BR><B> I don't feel very strong (maybe because I only got about five hours sleep each of the last three nights). She came and picked up the kids- I smiled and waved. Once they were gone, I broke down.<P>How can she hurt me so much, and I still love her?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Please don't think I am singling you out to pick on you alone because I am not BUT this is the part of Plan A that makes absolutely no sense to me, how we are supposed to put a big smile on our faces while we are very blatantly getting sh*t on in a very big way...what do our actions say to the WS's? I think they say that it is just fine for them to treat us this way, and it is not! We need to let them know that behavior such as your wife's is hurtful and very disrespectful, not to mention the EA guy in the presence of your children would send me into a pure fit of absolute rage! How dare she pollute your children's minds and morals by subjecting them to her EA guy....AAAGGGGHHHHH!! I would be a tad bit uptight right now if I were you!<P>That is the part of Plan A that I never tolerated...in situations such as yours now I asked many questions and when I felt I was being treated in less than a respectable manner, I threw a complete hissy fit. I admit it was not good for my Plan A, but H. knew he was not going to get away with him treating me like sh*t without getting a giant dose of guilt and shame. <P>If I were you I would be totally infuriated, I am infuriated for you!! <P>Try really hard to get a good night's sleep, I know I am always more emotional when I am tired!<P>Any thoughts about what you are going to do about this?? My thoughts are with you!! Take care of yourself!<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anna2000:<BR>There are many reasons why she did that popped in my head, but they all involved either wife telling friend "oh yea EA is going to be there" or EA calling or stopping by and saying I will be there and daughter overhearing. Very strange! Out of all the people in the world who would be there, it makes no sense for your daughter to single out one person. BTW, how old is your daugher?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Our daughter is six- will turn seven in about a month-and-a-half. Our three-year-old son is at the wedding now, too. Both of them are talkers- I wonder what they'll say about it all.<P>Yeah, I was so shocked hearing his name out of her mouth that it took me a while to realize what you just said- why his name? Your guesses are good, but I won't really know until I hear it from my wife, I guess. I've never really caught her in an outright lie, as far as I know. Even this would be a sin of omission- she never said she was going with just the kids, and I never thought to ask if she had a date, for God's sake.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wifeofcop:<BR>Please don't think I am singling you out to pick on you alone because I am not BUT this is the part of Plan A that makes absolutely no sense to me, how we are supposed to put a big smile on our faces while we are very blatantly getting sh*t on in a very big way...what do our actions say to the WS's? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The perfect plan A, if I recall correctly from <I>Surviving An Affair</I>, is put into action after discovery but when the SA says the affair is not continuing- then plan B comes if further contact is discovered. For the rest of us, it's not so clean cut, I guess.<P>If you're online, can you e-mail me? dabigtrain@yahoo.com. I have an offline question for you.<P>

DBT,<P>I am a believer in Plan A success, however, I do know firsthand that there are those spouses who are intelligent enough to figure out what our Plan A is all about, and then they manipulate our Plan A actions to better suit their needs and wants. My husband did that, and he had it down to a perfect science in the midst of his affair (unbeknownst to me at the time). Not only is it frustrating to the Plan A'er, it makes them feel like a doormat. I am not saying your wife is doing this, because I don't know, but I would look for any signs of it, that's for sure!<P>If you decide to stay in Plan A after today's incident, I would suggest setting up some boundaries for yourself and discuss them with your wife. It is obvious that you are strong enough to take whatever cr*ap she decides to throw your way, but when it involves your children, I'd be setting up some boundaries pretty fast. It is obvious from the tub talk last night that they are clearly confused and affected by today's events, and that should be intolerable for you as their father. <P>I was lucky enough that I never had to deal with OW being in contact with my children...if the day ever comes that I find out otherwise, you'll want to check out the Pioneer Press headlines, I'm sure there would be a very ugly story with some sort of foul play mixed in!<P>My heart goes out to you!

Bumping so the "marriage builders at work" crowd sees it...

dabigtrain,<P>Have the children returned to you yet? How was your weekend? Okay, probably NOT great, but did you try to do something for yourself?<P>How's the music stuff coming along...what are you doing now?<P>Of course I am doing nothing, but I hope to join a group when I have a car...<P>Take care,<P>Jacky

Train, you've gotten lots of good advice here, so i have not much to add. Except, her having your kids around OM, even if just an EA, is flat out WRONG. It is clear they are already confused about why you won't be ther, now to introduce another person into the pic. It is not right.<P>My instince would be to confront her on it, in as positive a way as possible. There's a jopke, eh. Of course, the two times i have tried this have not gone well, but at least the air is clear.<P>Does not sound to me like you are at Plan B yet, especially given how strong your Plan A has been going. It's already harder with kids, isn't it?<P>Good luck with whatever you decide. I think the thoughtful, measured approach you are taking speaks volumes of you as a person. Whatever happens, you'll come out OK.<P>Peace.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nina too:<BR>Have the children returned to you yet? How was your weekend? Okay, probably NOT great, but did you try to do something for yourself?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Kids were back by bedtime Saturday night; wife helped get them dressed for bed, and kissed them good night and headed out for reception. The kids said nothing more about EA guy-so maybe he and the wife played it cool. They were more impressed with the fire-eater who was on the festival grounds. All in all, they had a good time. <P>While they were gone, I called a friend to bounce the story off her- she, like everyone else, says it's time to ask her, the question is how. She also asked "does the bride know who she's bringing to her wedding?" implying the backlash that you and I have talked about. Of course, this friend is very prep-school proper, so she would expect that. <P>Anyway, as usual, just talking about it lightens the load. I also called for an appointment with Steve.<P>The kids wanted to call her fairly early Sunday morning- 10 am. Well, maybe that's not early, but if she was out til 3, it would be. I apologized if it was too early ("in case you had a late night at the reception"), but she said she was home and abed by 1 am- would have been early, but she had to put away some extra food she brought home from the reception. A lie? A half-truth? EA guy didn't show? Who knows?<P>4 pm, she called about coming over. We all went to diner; as we walked from the car to the restaurant, the kids were estatic for us all to be together, singing "Mommy! Daddy! Mommy! Daddy!" After, I took kids to a park to let them run off some pent-up energy, and she went back to her house, and came to my house for bedtime ritual.<P>Plan B would just about kill her, but will kill me too and drive the kids to distraction if I have to do it. The Soviets and the US used to refer to it as "mutually assured destruction." I think I'll need serious anti-Ds. <P>After they were in bed, we talked about an upcoming counselling session- she said she'd go if there was something I wanted to discuss with her, but if there wasn't, she'd prefer to skip it because she's so busy right now. Fine with me, because I want to talk with the counsellor about EA guy. She also poked around some papers left on what used to be her desk- looking for the divorce paperwork examples that her friend/lawyer had sent last summer. So, that's on her mind again.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>How's the music stuff coming along...what are you doing now?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have the start of a play that I want to write for an upcoming contest, but I don't really have the concentration for it right now. I have been going to readings at a local playwrights' workshop, which is fun- kind of like graduate seminars again.<P>Thanks for checking in.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ANB3:<BR>Good luck with whatever you decide. I think the thoughtful, measured approach you are taking speaks volumes of you as a person. Whatever happens, you'll come out OK.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks for your support and advice. I do believe I'll come out of this with my character intact, which is more than I can say for her at this moment.<P>