nonplused- do you have to wait until your divorce is final before you split things up like debt, or do they do that at separation? I really started thinking about it today. She never figured what it will take to live alone. Lately, since all of this started and she really got into herself, she likes to live big. Tanning, nails, hair, clothes , going out with her friend. With all of this and she having to pay supportand debt, she won`t have much to live on. I know she hasn`t looked at all of these things. I have been as nice as I can the past weeks, still doing small things for her, trying to keep quiet as much as I can. Do I eventually try to explain this to he or let her make her own mistake and let the lawyer contact her after she leaves. I know what I have to do, but hte bottom line is I still love her very much, even as she treats my family like this. I guess to most people that sounds stupid.<BR>Wonder.I want her to look and feel good. When this all first started i told her that she needs to do things that make her happy and feel good. If that means it will cost, I would help her because her happiness means a lot to me. She let me pay for a lot of the things, like clothes and others. Then she turned around and still treated me like crap when all I wanted to do was take her and the kids out to dinner for her birthday or mothers day. All I got was I don`t want to go anywhere with you. after a while of hearing that you almost start to loose your pride and begin to thing there is something wrong with you. No matter what she does, I still love her very much, but I know I need to do what I have to to protect my family. I only hpoe and pray that this doesn`t get ugly when she does leave. I know ther is a part of me hoping that she will change her mind, but I really know that won`t be true.

Confused.......<P> Hon we can always hope. I do think you still love her very much like you say. Its just to bad it takes some really bad situations to see that huh? Like here I think hubby would love for me to open up and let him in again. But I just can't. Its not there. At least I still do things with him. But its still hard for me to be me and enjoy when we do. In fact most of the time I put on that pretend face but thats my life right now is pretending. I feel like just screaming at him again PLEASE go find somebody else that you have more in common with. I know about hope or wishing cause someday I wish or hope I fall in love again. Right now I trust no man. Don't know if I ever can again. Yes it has come to that. In my late 30s and saying that. It hurts really bad inside yet. Sometimes I wish I could just pack my bags and run away and never look back. Most of us feel that way now and again I am sure. But could never forgive myself for leaving or thinking of leaving the kids. Confused I to spend money on clothes for me etc I always have. When I have extra might do a little more for myself. But I have thought about if seperate I will have to change some spending habits also. Ya know for me I think there are times I don't do enough for myself. I need to try and get out during the week nights a little more I think since am here with the kids all day long. But I don't and haven't. :-( :-( But should try I think. Well keep me informed on how your doing please. Ya know sometimes I think letting the ones go to be happy again is the most unselfish thing there ever is. Although it might hurt it might have to happen that way.

wonder, I don`t know if I already told you this, but there is a big difference in our situatuins. If I remember right your husband and you had a lot of bad times in your marriage, with his drinking. We didn`t have many bad times at all. A lot more good than bad. I can`t even remember us ever having a really bad fight. We`ve had arguments and disagreements, like every married couple. The bad times she brings up are things I might have said during an argument and those were over 10 years ago. That is her way of justifing her wanting to leave. We spent all, of our spare time together as a family or together if the kids were in school.She has undergone a major personality change over the past 3 or 4 months. Even her own family notices it. Our kids and her friends, so I know now it isn`t me. I just have to deal with it.Easch day that goes by she sometimes looks at me like she doesn`t even want to communicate with me and I didn`t do anything to get her upset. As a matter of fact I do more things for her now than I did before.That is part of my change. Even though she wouldn`t do a thing for me. Never even got me anything for father`s day from the kids like she usually does. All I can hope for is for someday for her to realize that there is a lot of love for her in this house, and a lot of helpfullness and caring. Maybe she does have to leave and loose this to understand what she has.

Confused......<P> I know our situations are different. Have you ever heard someone say you can be alone and still be married. Maybe that is how she feels right now. Even though you say you did things together always had a good marriage something must have snapped in her to turn. No I am not saying it was you. There must be something there that she did not get needs meet somewhere. I'm sorry she did not get you a fathers day gift. I did mine but I always have. It was the other way around for a very long time. He did not get me one or was like a damn chore for him to do it. Instead of doing it from the heart. Sorry to get off the subject. If she is going through her change maybe he hormones are whacked out also. Or she feels like she has missed something out there if she got married young. No I am not excusing it either. I know I feel empty inside. I don't ever feel like a woman. Just a mother and house keeper. Seems the woman part of me got lost. Maybe thats her too I don't know. It might just take her leaving to really know how much she was loved at home. I am glad you still do things for her thats sweet. But if you don't get a thank you or anything from it why keep doing it? Yes I know because you love her. Thats great but I hope you get some satisfaction from doing things for her too. I know one thing if it were not for my exercise I would probably be 6 ft under. That has saved me so much. Maybe you should try that too. Won't beleive how much stress and tension it relieves. Huggs again. Sorry if I upset you from last post.

Confused,<P>Responding to your question, in most states that have "modern" divorce laws, the assets, debt, property, childcare issues, support payments, visitation, etc. is all specified in the original separation agreement. I live in Canada and all that stuff was taken care of for sure. The only thing left to the divorce judge is normally to stamp a document that says "You are officially divorced" after at least one year of separation.<P>Here is a handy tip: The separation date is the day that she told you she was leaving. Make a note of it. Any wild credit card bills that she runs/ran up after that date are her personal responsibility. Also, better get a separate bank account, if you haven't already.<P>I also agree with Wonder that perhaps there are some serious differences between her situation and yours. From what I have read I would assume she is dealing with a classic Alcoholic-Codependent relationship. That's quite a different thing probably than what you are dealing with, which sounds more like a rebellion/delusion crisis on your wife's part only. Many people go through something like that in their teenage years. Usually you just let them dye their hair red and join the drama club. However, in cases where that phase is delayed until later in life the results can be much more tragic. I think the best and only thing you can do is let her go. As with anyone in that sort of a state, she will come out of it eventually. But you don't want to make yourself the focus of her rebellion or make it any harder for her than necessary. She will just become stubborn and it will take that much longer for her to come out of it. Just rebuild your own life and move on. And be fair to both her and yourself. There is precedent regarding what is considered fair in terms of financial settlements, child care, etc. Stick to it. Time will be the ultimate judge of whether or not her actions were reasonable.<BR>

I think once she leaves the chances that we get back together are going to be slimmer. I was hoping things would eventually get better but they are not. One lawyer told me that if you are still sleeping in the same bed you are not separated until you sleep separately.The last few days I haven`t had much contact with her except at night before bed we may talk about the kids. I don`t call her anymore and she stopped calling me a while ago. I start counceling on Friday and I hope it helps. It will be the first time I`ve ever had to do that.

Confused.........<P> Well if anything the counceling will help you. Even if she still leaves you will feel better about yourself. I know first hand how you get so down. I still get that way because seems like nothing is changing for the better for me yet. I am trying to find a part time job and the 2 have applied for well one really wanted and the second one could not guarantee me enough hours. I keep thinking to myself will anything ever change for me. Seems my hopes just keep gettitng lower and lower. I know a person can only take so much disappointment. Well again if she leaves at least you know you did the best you could do. But that you stayed for the kids and that to me would mean the world for your kids. Like I said before they will be bitter towards her for awhile especially if she leaves and is not being the mother she once was. But then thats her own fault. Keep in touch let me know how the counceling app. goes.

It was the first time I had to go to counseling too. There is no humiliation in it. Instead, I think it indicates a mature, self confident person who can say that they need some help. I wanted to act in the best and most reasonable fashion possible towards my ex and towards my children through my separation. Most of all I wanted to be a gentleman. And I wanted to be able to put my kids first and not resort to the selfish behavior that often comes with divorce. Because of the emotional turmoil, I needed a little help. The weak person is the one who is too proud to get help and ends up screwing up because they won't admit that the situation is more than they know how to deal with.

Confused, Your story sounds alot like mine. For the first six months she gave me the ILYBINILWY line and brought up real old issues as reasons for why she didn't want to be married to me. My wife eventually moved out for six months to be on her own. She swore there was no one else. There was. She didn't want me to do anything nice for her. Her guilt for what she was doing was killing her. She was cheating on me and left her kids to pursue her "relationship" with the OM. I also thought her phenomal personality change was due to something medical....... She's been home for two months now. I'm not really sure if it's going to work though. I'm not sure if I want it to. After all the S**T she put me and the kids through i'm not willing to settle for anything less than a real relationship with all the trimmings. I'm not sure she's capable or willing. After the initial "I'll do the MB thing" she's renigging on that and basically done nothing for the last month. I'm rambling.........follow your gut. If it smells like fish ,it probably is.<BR>I ignored my "instincts" for a long time, I knew my wife wouldn't do that!<BR>The thing that pulled me through this all was my kids. I became superdad. My kids were 8 and 10 at the time. I have always been involved with my kids, but now I focused all my energy on the kids activities and it really helped pull the three of us together. I have my W to thank for bringing me closer to my kids. (sic).<BR>Good Luck, Mike

nonplused and wonder, I`ll let you know how the counseling goes. I relly feel strange doing this.<BR>hopingforthebest-If there is another man, that is the question on my mind most of the time. I haven`t had any positive proof so far, only speculation. All of her excuses checked out. I haven`t had any proof there is. I know if ther is it will make tis whole situation all the more tougher that I think it is now.<BR>I have noticed something the past few days. Since i have finally come to terms with this whole situation, I have finally benn able to think at work and do things at home. I guess I`m finally moving on because I just go it through my head there is no way I can make her feel a certain way. I have watched her lately. now she is the one doing the thinking. I wake up and she is laying ther staring into space. i walk into a room and she is the one quiet and staring at nothing. It used to be me , maybe now she has had time to think about this whole situation. I`m not saying it will get any better, but the past few days she spent at work or home, no evenings out with her friend.I`m starting to fell a little better everyday and I thank you who have read and answered my post, for letting me vent my feelings that I feel have been forcing me to make matters worse.

Confused.......<P> Well let us know how your app. went today. You seem to be focusing more on yourself thats good. Wish I could do that more. Last night here got into it with spouse again. Seems he sticks up for the kids more then me. But then again he use to do that all the time. Now I know why I never felt like a wife. Still don't. We fought because I made a comment that seems I run my life around everybody elses schedules. He said thats what being a parent is. I should have said no thats what being a mother is. I am the one that does the running not him. Then I made the comment well you are not here all day long with them everyday. Well ya know thats not his fault. He said he hurrys at work to get home earlier to help me out. Yeh I see him cooking dinner,cleaning etc to help me out. Yeh right. What BS that was. He hurrys cause he does not like to get home late. So that was a lie right there. And who gets there baths ready everynight not him. I said to him seems like we cannot even discuss things anymore without getting into it. Thats the truth to thats why I hardly talk anymore. Or keep my mouth shut. What a way to live. How fun. Still looking for that part time job. Almost came close to saying to him well wait till I get a job I will be out of your hair. I think in the long run thats what this will come to. Sorry to vent but seems lately I am mad at the whole world. I know its not the worlds fault. If only one damn door with good news or feelings would open or change for me I would feel that something or hope was really out there for me. Really hard each day here. Take care all huggs.

wonder,sorry you had a bad day. The counceling session went pretty good yesterday. I was more relaxed once we got into it. I need to avoid any conflict for a while. The problem is the finances. She hasn`t been reasonable about them and I don`t want to start anything next week when she refuses to pay anything. I am going to try to quietly talk to her about it.I know this is not going to be easy, but as Steve Harley told me it will take a great deal of patience.<P>

Confused......<P> I am glad you session went well. Its hard I know going in not knowing what to expect. I felt the same way when I had my first session for thereapy. Patience well thats one thing I don't have and not good at. But I try. I am same here but hope maybe you are doing better. Please let me know. Oh yeh think time to start a Not in Love 5 LOL this one getting long again already.Huggs to all.