I know you are all asleep right now, but I have to post anyway to get it out.<P>My kids don't like being away from their dad. Well, who'd do, but we are in another country, and dad has phoned them about 4 times in three weeks. This seems to be slowing down.<P>The girls has told me often that they miss him and want to see him or talk on the phone. They ask me to call him, but it costs so much money, and I have to save every penny right now because I will have to move from my parent's place asap. Girls have been clingy and teary a lot of the time.<P>My elsest (son) is not saying anything, but he sometimes gets angry at his dad, usually he just mopes around...<P>I don't think I can pay for counseling for them, but I think they needs something (I will see if the schools provide counseling in about two weeks) because as my mother just put it, these kids are suffering, they have changed so much, they never used to speak to me the way they do now, they are more destructive, etcetc, because of (Gritted teeth, grimace...she storms away). Poor love she is trying hard, but I know she wants to beat my H up verbally to me.<P>Anyway, we get to the crux of this...my has told me he doesn't want to hear how bad the kids are doing because he sees it as manipulation on my part, to try and make him feel guilty and come back. I am honest enough to admit there might have been some truth in it, but my primary concern is the kids and how they feel about living like this. <P>But I think he needs to know how this is affecting them, and I also think he needs to call them more often, or at least he could email them once a day so they know he thinks of them. Up until now, when he has asked I have said they're okay...that's all, just okay. And he seems to know I am trying to tell him they're not. <P>What do I do, should I tell him what's really going on or not?<P>I appreciate any help.<P>

Hello Ninatoo...<P>I am still awake. Can't sleep. Thinking about my W and 2 Yr old daughter. I miss them tons.<P>As for your situation and coming from a Father's standpoint, I would want nothing but the truth. It is my obligation and responsibility to be involved in all matters of my children. I think you are doing a disservice to yourself by not telling him the truth. I realize it is hard, but this will only help you as you move forward.<P>If he truly cares for his children, he would do what he could within his control.<P>Try not to think of it as you manipulating him and tell him up front that you don't mean to be manipulative. If he has a hard time understanding this, be patient and give it some time. You both owe it to your children to be truthful and honest.<P>I hope this helps.

Hi SDS,<P>I am sorry you are still awake...it's my afternoon here, approaching kids bathtime.<P>You forget, you are a totally rational human being...H is not. I have asked him in the past to increase his time/calls with the kids, and do you know what happened? He DECREASED it...so this is one reason for my hesitation...what if he cuts all contact with them?<P>He is so much in the fog, he has forgotten how much joy the kids can bring...I had a lovely walk with my girls today, and they were making me LAUGH...something I don't do a lot of.<P>

Who cares what he thinks is manipulation. The truth is the truth. I am so sorry for your kids-they are the true innocents, and the true victims, along with you. Regardless of what your H may think you are doing, he needs to know that he has taken certain steps, and these steps have consequesnces for others.<P>His selfish actions have begotten harsh reactions from his children. The only difference with you is that you are grown and mature enough to handle it differently. Nobody likes being rejected (as all of here know so well), and that is what he has done to you and your kids. YOu were strong, and did the right thing moving. Hee'll probably try to lay blame for that at your doorstep at some point. Don't take it.<P>He chose his course, and forced you to choose yours.<P>Only thing I can add is that some counseling for kids would be very worthwhile. i understand money is issue, but many therapists, at lease here in States, will work with you on this, and there are ad hoc support groups that cost nothing.<P>Jacky, I am so sorry this thing is extending to your kids. My prayers will be with you all tonight.<P>Peace.

Thank you so much ANB3, <P>The kids and I had a massive blow up at dinner time tonight...they were being really rude, I'm getting more and more angry, and then my son said something really disrespectful to my mum...well I blew a gasket...roared at the lot of them and we all were crying...didn't realise how much pressure has been building up! <P>Anyhow we all made amends after a big discussion on why we make rules for kids to follow. My mum wasn't helping...kept jumping in with "Your mum is under a lot of stress right now, you should not be so rude to her." Yes I admit the stress, and they have been awful, but now is not the time for a guilt trip for them. Anyway, I was feeling like the worst parent on earth, but this may have all happened to give me a message because....<P>This afternoon I wrote a letter to H about their not coping, but I didn't send it and now I am glad. I think it could have been used sometime in the future for evidence that I am a bad parent, it was detailed about how the kids mouth off, etc. So I think I will write, but I will just say something like, the kids are really missing you and they need more contact than five minutes talk a week. But phrased in oh so eloquent Plan A speak of course.<P>About the blaming me? He already did that. I was really low the second time he called (been here one week) telling him my folks were not used to kids and things were hard...he said "Well, you were the one who wanted to leave." <P>WHAT!!!! Excuse me!!! He left me 10 weeks before I left the country, which I reminded him of, and then I also reminded him that I would have HAD to go in January anyway, and then I also said in the most LB way I could manage, cos I was steaming that his exposing my kids to OW gave me the PUSH out the door. What did he say? Nothing! As if I am going to wait around to see if it works out with the divorced b**** from hell!!!<P>Sorry, but that conversation STILL gets me to see red!!! <P>So anyway, I will write, just not details, so thanks all. I had asked for guidance for this, and tonight I got it...don't put anything that may be construed against YOU in writing.<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nina too:<BR>...didn't realise how much pressure has been building up! <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You and your children need family counseling, either from a licensed professional, or from a local support group. Any cost should be (at least!) half paid by your husband. It is worth the cost of a phone call to tell this to your husband; at the very least, e-mail. You don't have to give him specifics in the e-mail like you do here- just say the kids are misbehaving, you believe it's the stress caused by his affair and your resulting (and reiterate <I>absolutely necessary</I>), and that he must foot half the bill.<P>I don't know what such services cost in OZ, and I don't know your budget. You've said you're saving up cash to prepare to move from your parent's house- maybe you want to delay that and invest some of the cash in counselling.<P>You're in my prayers, as ever.<p>[This message has been edited by dabigtrain (edited September 24, 2001).]

Thanks dabigtrain,<P>I had told him that the kids need counseling in that letter I hadn't sent, but I didn't think of asking him for half the costs...worth a try! Well after all, he did choose this lifestyle for all of us!<P>I will definetly add that to the email.<P>You know, it IS cost of a call, really is, but also I can't stand to hear his voice right now. I don't know if what I am hearing is his pain or his indifference, hard to tell without the face to go with it.<P>Your input is always helpful dabigtrain, and lots of people here are benefitting. Thank you!<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky

Jacky, Jacky, Jacky<P>Remember, the kids are going through the same grieving process as we are, they have their angry moments also, yet they don't know how to handle it very well.<P>This situation is where you have to be the family psychiatrist. . . yes, another role.<P>You have to let everyone have about 2 minutes of bad behavior, then leave and tell them that you will return when everyone stops yelling. . . . once they realize that yelling and anger actually PUSHES people away, they will begin to calm down and follow your lead. <P>The escalation or temptation to fight fire with fire does not break their cycle, only reinforces it. I had to learn that the wrong way, because I got sucked into their mom's style of communication. So now, i just leave, and the realization of a second parent leaving is the realization that their bad behavior does push people away. Now you haven't gone very far, but they will understand through actions, not through words right now.<P>Then once the actions have brought a halt to acting out anger, you ask them to find their feelings and expound upon them. Get the list of feelings, and have it posted so that they can reference it if they don't know which ones there are, and often discuss YOUR feelings so they can engage in a discussion about them.<P>Take this time to show CALM above all else, if you can't be calm, YOU leave until you can be. and with your mum, you be very direct and tell her that you appreciate her support, but you sould like her support with this solution.<P>My kids live with a yeller, and they have slowly learned not to yell around me, because I don't, but occassionally I raise my voice, and they raise it back at me. . . which is not a good sign for the future.<P>But we keep working on it. Its the manipulative tendencies of an ESFJ that you must combat. Figure out a good answer for your kids, and let them know why you moved back to OZ, and make sure they realize its just ahead of schedule, and that there was no choice for you. . . . and that you understand their hole in their life, and you wish you could fill it, but it is your dad's responsibility to be a dad.<P>Prepare for some family discussions, then have them.<P>sWIFTTy

This is the thing sWIFTTy, <P>How do you let the kids know those things without putting the WS down...which everyone says is the number one wrong thing to do? I wanted to tell them tonight, "Hey I didn't get us into this mess, your father did" but of course I didn't. <P>I am so SICK of telling them their father loves them when clearly, from a child's point of view, he doesn't...I know how kids think, I am a junior school teacher (they call it primary school here 6-11 year olds)...and I know that they know when you are feeding them crap. They know by experience, and experience is telling them that all of a sudden daddy doesn't think they're worth his time.<P>Clearly they need counseling, and I will make sure they get it...but in the meantime, I am their rock, until like today it just GOT to me. I LB'd on my kids, and goddam him for making me do that!!! <P>Jacky

Hey Nina, I'm back in town. I don't know how they do it where you're at but here counseling costs can be done a sliding scale based on income. Don't worry about keeping him informed about the kids. He doesn't sound like he cares all that much, but do it. Phone calls are costly. Kids react many different ways. I've found over the years you can't force someone to be good dad. The kids can always email him. My guess is they know what he has done, but you are right not to go into details with them. I think answering questions asked is good and this can be hard when you are trying not to put him down. I always tell people the court doesn't care how you feel about each other but want you to behave properly when it comes to the children. The reality is kids pick up on verbal and nonverbal cues anyway so they probably know how you feel. Let them communicate with him or him with them. As the calls become less frequent and shorter in duration, without your influence, they will draw their own conclusions. I forget how old they are. Hany tough! Lee

That was my point about coming up with family discussion and topic. Maybe you need a family question and answer session. But if you contain your comments to yourself, then you don't put down the other parent. sounds pretty easy to me, and that's how i do it.<P>Yes, dad still loves you, but not in the same way any more, from a distance, when he has the time. You have to be honest, but have a spin on it so as to not hurt the other person.<P>Also, explain to them that you were planning to move back anyway, you just came earlier, because you couldn't live in a foreign country alone, with a husband, yes, as a single mum, no.<P>that's why i say, think about a speech, carefully, give a family speech, and then open for questions. I just told my kids that this is what happens when adults can't negotiate, or get too selfish, or can't respect other people's opinions. You can say that you didn't choose this life style, it was forced upon you. You can say that we can get through this rough period together if we talk about how are feelings are hurt, and how we all miss dad, I miss dad also, but since i can't <I> make him appear when I want him to, </I> i have to figure out my solutions myself.<P>you are smart enough, you just have to figure out what values you want the kids to understand from this, and then promote those values. you can do it, it just takes lots of thought, and some creative time to think up the answers.<P>keep posting with some thoughts.<P>sWIFTTy<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited September 24, 2001).]

Jacky -<P>I'm sorry your kids are hurting. If only the WH's of ours would venture out of their fog to see it. I agree that you have to tell your husband the truth. Of course he will probably say you are trying to manipulate him, but who cares, you are an excellent mother who is very concerned. <P>I know whenever I mention problems our kids are having to my WH he throws the old don't try to guilt me into anything or use the kids to manipulate me lines at me. I guess like you said there probably is some truth in it, but there should be. The kids are their Dads too and the Dads should feel guilty for the pain that their poor choices have caused.<P>Here's an overseas hug for you. Keep us posted.<P>K

A further thought- I remember somehting from a "what to tell the kids" article my counselor gave me (sorry can't find the exact source right now) that may help. <P>When a spouse leaves unexpectedly, and you're in shock yourself, the kids probably are too. Share the confusion- validate it for them. "I don't understand why s/he did this; I'm trying to figure it out, too." <P>You don't have to have all the answers for your kids; you don't have to tell them their father loves them. That's his job. I think you can say "Your father's actions are confusing to me, too" without it being "turning the kids against their Dad.

I am so sorry your kids are suffering Nina too. I don't know what to say sometimes so I tend to not say anything. <BR>I am sorry you are going through this.

Thanks everyone, <P>I will probably do the family conference stuff...should be interesting and helpful.<P>I have not real clue about counseling in Australia, I have to check that out. I have an appointment with the child support agency tomorrow, so I will ask them about it.<P>Going to write to H today.<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky

<BR>Nina,<P>Goodmorning. Well I think it's still morning there.<P>My friend recommended a book for me to read to help my children through the divorce. Although I haven't purchased it yet, because she so highly recommended, I will, and I would like to also recommend it to you. It's called The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce by Judith Wallerstein. It's a 25 year study where a whole neighborhood was involved. They follows the children of this neighborhood through adulthood. They compared the children who's parents divorced to the children who's parents didn't divorce and how these children are coping now as adults. As adults these children give great advice on the mistakes their parents made. She said this was great insight on things to do and not to do to get your family through this tough time.<P>Hope you get it and it helps.<P>Take care.<P>ANNA<P><p>[This message has been edited by Anna2000 (edited September 25, 2001).]

Well thank you Anna, I have made a note of it.<P>I wrote to him, but it will be at least another 7 hours before he replies...it's night there. Any yes, it is morning here.<P>I simply told him the kids are missing him and they would appreciate more contact with him, even emails. I mentioned that I was looking into counseling for the kids as well.<P>I don't think he'll like that bit, since he caused them to NEED counseling.<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky

Nina,<P>Unfortunately, I think the reason why he is not calling much is because he time he calls he has guilt and sadness. If he pushes it under the rug and doesn't think about it, it makes it easier for him to deal with. Maybe it doesn't make it easier for the kids but I think he's thinking of himself.<P>ANNA

Well that's obvious!!!<P>He sounded really sad last time we spoke, he said it is always how he is after speaking to the kids...well it never HAD to be this way.<P>I don't feel sorry for him. It is his duty to put his own selfishness aside for his children...and if he doesn't put in more effort to contact them, I guess ultimately it is his loss.

Nina,<P>Yep, he's being selfish. Which is so indictative of his entire behavior. It sounds like he puts his needs above everything and everyone.<P>Oh geeez, I am probably not helping here.<P>Ok, I'll be quiet on how I feel about how selfish, undeserving of you husband. <P>ANNA<P>