Long story here. W and i are separated, 2 kids 8 and 10. She announced at counseling session couple of weeks ago it is over, no way we are getting back together, we will divorce.<P>Well, saw her at one kids soccer game Saturday a.m. Even took her cup of coffee. Sat together. She brought up she had gotten letter from her dad-they are estranged, on bad terms. She wanted me to engage in conversation on letter, support her. i felt i could not let myself get dragged into her drama there, so i listened but no more. She finally dropped it.<P>Saw her again at second game late that afternoon. Brought up letter again, again i did not bite. the she brought up the holidays, what did i ant to do. She offered for me to take kids C'mas Eve and Day. Asked what she was going to do (her family not an option), she said 'oh, something i guess'. Very woe is me. I replied honestly i had not thought about it, would need to do that and get back to her. It was generous offer, but again i think attempt to draw me in.<P>Think she is feeling lonely now, pressures of school starting for the kids, time crunches etc.<P>Had run in Sunday night dropping kids off. She asked about counseling session we have scheduled for Wednesday. Acted like she was not sure we had one-she knows good and well we do. I just looked at her while she talked. Made her mad. 'Why are you looking at me?' Then, 'it's about me being late to one session, forgetting another, isn't it?'<P>Now, I had not said a word. Her conscience was talking. She got mad, I told her I would leave message with time and date for session, and left. Before, it would have become a fight.<P>I'm sure she thinks 'see, he's a jerk, i am so right to get out of M' yada yada yada. What i did was not very Plan A, but i do think i did the right thing. I cannot get sucked into her drama. i want to help, but in a healthy way. i don't want her to be alone on Christmas, but my main concern there is the kids.<P>I am realy getting to like my life now-i am making new friends, doing things, having some fun. Now when i see her, it is bringing me down. A few months ago, I lived for this contact.<P>Have i made a breakthrough, or caused a train wreck?

ANB,<BR>I think you did the right thing. Good Job. I am taking heart from your post. I know my wife is down and not doing well emotionally. I have offered support, offered to pay for her individual counseling. My plan a is working to an extent, but I have been love busting. Lots of emails. She hates that. I have resolved to quit that. You give me hope. I have just moved into a new apartment complex. Alot of men and women my age (34) so I am excited. I am going to leave my wife alone for a while. Just going to help when I can and not get sucked into her stuff. She is very stand-off-ish. I am starting to enjoy myself as well.<P>Keep up the good work! How long have you been separated? What kind of mistakes did you make in your Plan A? Just wondering to see if I have overlooked possible mistakes.

Hmmmmm....<P>Okay guys, you just know from that I am going to say something you mightn't like to hear.<P>Plan A is all about getting involved in their 'stuff'. Clearly for both of you, your W's need to air stuff, just talk to you and get some sort of response. You won't like this, but both of you LB'd by not responding to whatever drivel they were talking about, because they were REACHING OUT. That is not a shout, but an emphasis. <P>My H is an electrical engineer, okay I know all the jokes are true!!! But as if I want to listen to him go on about all that work stuff, but I try to let him know he can tell me, can air any grievances, because he may not get that anywhere else...and the amount he tells me about work, I don't think OW is providing for THAT particular need of his. Ut may in fact be the ONLY need he has from me right now, and since it is better than nothing, I play along.<P>ANB3 your wife tried TWICE, didn't that clue you in?<P>Yes I know when they put on the woe is me stuff it can get to you....you want to say "Oh yeah? Well look at me for a sad sack model" etc etc. BUT they were reaching out, and you didn't pick up on it.<P>Don't blame yourselves, you just didn't realise. It could have been a good love bank time for both of you, it passed...well you'll know better next time, huh .<P>Don't mean to be disrespectful, and I don't know at what stage each of you are on the scale of p*ssed-offness, but I thought I would like to let you know my thoughts, so you can do something about it in the future if you want to.<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky

Jacky, thanks for being straight-up, and please keep on doing just the same thing. Tricky knowing where to draw the line, eh?<P>It was hard on the heels of hearing from her such a definitive 'It's Over, we ARE getting divorced' to turn around and be there for her. I have lots to learn about unconditional love and detaching.<P>It is also hard because I know i need to look out for my own needs also, and getting wound around her axle can't be good for that.<P>Jacky, you hit hard, but you sure fight fair. Thanks!

ANB the third<P>i agree with your actions. I tend not to want to get sucked into instant decisions, and personal crap with someone who wants to be dramatic, or always being so difficult that they are estranged.<P>Yes, its is always nice to Plan A, but getting sucked into conversations that can be used against you are always a red flag. You can sympathize, with "I'm sorry to hear you are having a tough time." or "This situation must be tough on you." meaning to recognize and empathize with what she is going through, but do not offer solutions. She has to figure out the answers herself.<P>Sounds like you are a T and she is an F personality type. If true, she needs her feelings validated first, and then she is ok to discuss solutions. But you must validate first, then listen, and you are on the first step to being an OK person.<P>do you know your personality types? that is always helpful to understand the differences between how the different types percieve and interpret the environment and stimuli.<P>good luck.<BR>sWIFTTy

sWIFTTy: Perceptive. I am INTJ (extreme T), she is INFP. Itried to empathize w/o jumping to fixing, but not easy. Probably came off as indifference. I have thought about offering to talk to her about it, but at this point i think it would be counter-productive.<P>Thanks for the input. Your thoughts on personality type would be very interesting to me.<P>Peace.

As an F person, she does not have any logical answers to satisfy your T, (I am an INTP, raised by ESFJ and an INTJ)<BR>Your structure may be too much for her P.<P>Remember, Ps take in information but have a very hard time making a decision, and FPs have tons of feelings influenced by the inputs, but can have a very hard time making a logical decision, or one that makes sense to a T.<P>Good luck, but keep the conversations light and never say anything negative to an FP person, they really don't like it, no criticism, only support for what she wants to do.<P>after than, what are her FOO values? family of origin values? similar to your upbringing or not? in other words, do you get along well with your in laws?<P>

Wow, the in-laws. Where to begin?<P>She is estranged from her birth family. Very controlling father, very distant mother, very aloof younger brother who is the 'fair haired child'. She has much anger from childhood and adolescence, and they badly mishandled some college mishaps of hers.<P>She carries much blame against them for her lot in life. mother bipolar. What a mess. They are, however, very nice people. I get along well with them-in fact, I am the only source of info they have. They do not support her in the separation, but are also unwilling to try too hard to say anything (which may not be a bad thing).<P>I know W got letter from her Dad, which always sends her off deep end. Oh, and one more thing, they are very serious about their religion, almost to the point of piety.

personally, get a good lawyer, and get a good agreement,<BR>give it up, you will be fighting the history forever,<BR>and unless she is happy, and content with accepting all that has happened to her life, she will forever harbor this anger towards the world, <P>and if she is looking for someone to make her whole, she will forever be looking.<P>Now the kids will receive a good portion of this, so you need to be as big an influence as you can be for the kids, to neutralize the possible estrangement that she will pass on to her kids. . . due to the tendency for history to repeat.<P>good luck, but she needs lots of counseling to overcome and accept the stuff that has happened.<P>WIFTTy<P><BR>

sWIFTTy, have you been living in my closet? I am right there with you on your last post. I wanted her back desperately, but marriage counseling really opened my eyes. She is just not capable of listening to me without relating back to her. You are right, she blames everyone and everything for her lot. She has been in therapy, and has made progress, but she has long way to go.<P>I am watching kids very closely. She has pushed her family away, pushed me away, and she'll get around to the kids sooner or later.<P>Did I mention the addicitve personality, the anorexia and alcoholism? Therein lies another long story.<P>She is just too wrapped up in her own self to handle anything else. I represent the past and her problems to her. I cannot fight that. I have learned there is life for me out there. There other women, NORMAL women, who are interested in me for me.<P>I am really getting Ok with all of this. The kids are the hard part.<P>Thanks for your insight-it is right on, and different from what I have seen here.<P>Peace.