Just some food for thought that stemmed from another posting re: opinions regarding dating divorced women. Some of these questions come from me and some from elliott 45 (thanks!). <P><B>Dating After Divorce</B><BR>In an effort to be the best person we can be, as well as, find a good partner (should that be our objective), the following list of questions has been started.<P>There are two ways this can be used:<BR>1) Work thru these questions yourself prior to getting involved in a serious relationship.<P>2) Use these questions as a guideline if you are dating a divorced person and prior to getting seriously involved.<P><B>Questions<BR>1) Why did you get divorced? <P>2) What do you think went wrong?<P>3) What do you fault yourself for?<P>4) What do you fault your X for?<P>5) What have you learned from it?<P>6) What would you do in another relationship to avoid the same mistakes again?<P>7) Do you feel you are a better person as far as self esteem for yourself and respect for others?</B><BR> <P>Others are more than welcome to add questions on. I think the more we can learn from past experiences, the better we can approach new experiences. And when the divorce rate for second marriages is higher than for first, this to me is essential to figure out.<P>Like I said, just food for thought.....<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited September 26, 2001).]

Mrs.O,<BR>When I was going through my divorce, my aunt told me to write down 10 things I wanted in a man. I said why. She said because if you are not careful, you will end up dating the same type person again. She was so right!!!!! It has helped me tremendously.<P>Either I'm not going to the right places or I'm too busy because my selection is very limited and I hate clubs. Right now, I just take one day at a time. Yes it gets lonely, but I have lots of friends and I just bought a house, so there is always something to do around there.<P>Hawaii, very beautiful, I once visited there in 1986 when my X was in the Air Force stationed in the Philippines (that is where my girls were born). Would love to go back but costs lots of $$$$$. I love all the tropical plants, the colors, shapes and smells of flowers are such a smoothing feeling.....<P>

Do you remember what the ten things were?

To me this would just be an exercise in frustration. As in most cases, my H's affair was not due to "mistakes" that either of us made, but to the horrible damage that his depression wrought. There is no way to predict whether another person would not also be hit by depression - it would be wise to avoid those with a history of depression, or alcoholism, or drug abuse, or infidelity, etc., etc, but there would still be an excellent chance that they would be hit with depression. <P>I understand why bs's would want to think that a repeat of the situation would somehow be preventable, if they just did so-and-so differently. We want to believe that we have some control, that somehow we "learned" something that will prevent this from happening again - but it doesn't matter - even if we could somehow become absolutely perfect, there is still a high probability that it will happen again. The incidence of depression increases as we approach old age; in subsequent marriages couples will have more "baggage" to contend with even under the best of circumstances, and for those of us already in middle age, there will be no chance to build the history we had with our first spouses, not to mention that having more children with a future spouse will not be an option. All these factors combine to make the likelihood of any future relationship lasting slim - the main reason that the incidence of divorce in second marriages among the middle age and elderly is not even higher is that one or both members are more likely to die before they have been together a long time.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>To me this would just be an exercise in frustration. As in most cases, my H's affair was not due to "mistakes" that either of us made, but to the horrible damage that his depression wrought. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Whoa, Nellie!! Your post is a depressing thought in an of itself! Every partner in the breakup of a marriage, tho due to some major forces (depression, affair, mid-life crises, etc.) has to bare some responsibility for "mistakes" they may have made. No, it wasn't necessarily your fault, but that doesn't mean you had no liability in marital problems somewhere along the line.<P><B>I understand why bs's would want to think that a repeat of the situation would somehow be preventable, if they just did so-and-so differently.</B><P>Even tho my H is the one who went thru a mid-life crises, had the affair and was depressed (as he was), I do see things I could have done differently in the marriage. First of all, I would have strongly encouraged him to get treatment of his depression and to talk to a counselor (as he is now doing)...with or without me. Had he done that, there is a STRONG probability that he wouldn't have picked up a bottle again (after 15 years); had he not done that, there is a STRONG probability that he wouldn't have started shutting me out; had he not done that, there is a STRONG probability that he wouldn't have started an affair; had he not done that, there is a STRONG probability that we would have been able to work thru our marital problems...or whatever. <P><B>We want to believe that we have some control, that somehow we "learned" something that will prevent this from happening again... </B><P>So you're saying we can't learn from things we have no control over? I don't get that. I've learned PLENTY from this and it WAS NOT my fault, idea or intention. While I may not have been able to control the outcome (or future outcomes), I still have things to learn that can, yes, improve my future relationships. Or are well all doomed? It's just too frustrating to even try...is that what you're saying?<P><B>...but it doesn't matter - even if we could somehow become absolutely perfect, there is still a high probability that it will happen again.</B><P>That MIGHT be true, at least from statistics I read. But I can still learn and put into practice things that I learned from this circumstance. And if more people did this, the statistics would come down.<P><B>The incidence of depression increases as we approach old age; in subsequent marriages couples will have more "baggage"...</B><P>I guess THIS is EXACTLY what these questions are meant to address.....the baggage....I DON'T want to carry any more baggage into a new relationship that I need to. Most people never stop and think about their "baggage"...that's what these questions are meant to help them do. If more people would do just that, then maybe the incidence of divorce in second / middle age / elderly marriages would go down some. Most people I know who have been re-married have said to me, and I quote "Make sure you deal with the issues of your first marriage before you get married again. I sure wish we would have..."<P>Anyway, I feel for you. It sounds like your future is very bleak. Hey, I've been hurt, had my heart ripped out, don't know if I could trust a man again, wonder at 45 if I'll ever find anyone ever again.....but I'm not ready to give up and write every man my age off a depressed, middle-age, baggage handler. I'm gonna do my homework and if I get so blessed as to meet a good man who did his too....then I still believe in love, hope and happily ever after.<P>From my point of view, I would be very leary of getting involved with someone who thought the end of their marriage was TOTALLY the fault of their ex-spouses. Sorry......that's just my opinion.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P>

I certainly made mistakes during my marriage. But I do not believe that "mistakes" - mine or my H's - have anything to do with his depression-induced affair. The end of my marriage can not really be blamed on either me or my H - the end of my marriage is TOTALLY the fault of my H's depression (with the assistance of the OW - who may or may not suffer from depression). <P>Mistakes may lead to misunderstandings, or disagreements, or a relationship that is not perfectly smooth, but that has NOTHING to do with affairs. Many, many people have absolutely miserable marriages, and many of them never have affairs. Many people have wonderful marriages but do have affairs. People have affairs because of issues within themselves - pretty much limited to depression/self-esteem issues or a belief in "entitlement" - and I don't think the latter is relevant in my H's case. <P>I WILL NOT accept blame for not forcing my H to get treatment for depression. I tried to get him to talk to a a doctor, but I couldn't force him to. For that matter, I had no way of knowing that the depression was not purely situational, due to outside events that had recently occurred. Even had he recognized that he was depressed, and perhaps he did, I am not surprised that he did not seek chemical treatment - not after someone in our town murdered his wife and kids while on Prozac. Even medicine for wheezing caused my H to feel a "sense of impending doom," in his words - I don't even want to think about what Prozac would do. <P>Yes, I do believe that virtually all men our age (I am a couple years older than you) are carrying around too much baggage to have any reasonable chance of being a marriage partner one could depend on, and many of them will be hit with depression as they age. No, I do not believe in happily ever after. Yes, my future is pretty bleak - but I would not want to make it even worse by risking this happening all over again - not to mention the fact that I love my H.

There has to be a point in your life where you have to let go of the past and move on in order to heal; otherwise, you will become depressed and disguisted with life in general. And I believe it is O.K. to still love your X, but have a special place in your heart for him. What I don't believe is that there is only one person put on this earth for us to love and be happy with the rest of our lives. There are many types of love. As individuals, we have to distinguish lust from love, learn from our mistakes and be able to decipher the difference between the two.<P>The list that Mr.O and I were putting together was merely a list for compatibility and to help us know what to stay away from and what we like. I believe every woman and men, married or single, will always carry around a certain amount of baggage, whether it be kids, emotional, monetary, physical, etc. I don't believe you will ever find someone so perfect that they do not have some type of fault.<P>For me to ever be serious with someone again, there have to be certain traits that are present. There are certain traits that are so important to me, if they are not present, I'm not even going to pursue that person. The good has to be outweighed with the bad, but the traits that are most important have to be met or I am doomed for a failure. I have learned from my divorce I know I wasn't getting the emotional support or the respect I deserved in my marriage and because of that it pushed me away from my X and probably caused me to be depressed. I tried to laugh it off and ignore it, but it hurt very deeply inside. I TOO DON'T TAKE the blame for him not going to counseling, but what I do blame him for is his insecurities and obnoxious, controlling behavior, plus not appreciating what he had.<P>I have learned a great deal throught the 15 years I was married. I've learned to speak up and stand up for what I believe in, I've learned that's its O.K. to say no and not let someone talk me into doing something I didn't want to do in the first place. I've learned that I am a fighter and survivor and I can make it on my own. I've learned that live has many tribulations, challenges and obsticles and if we don't learn something from each of these, there is a good probability of making the same mistakes again!!!!<BR>

Nellie - Your husband had no choice in whether or not to have an affair? Are most affairs not the sign that something is seriously wrong?<P>Could you not have sought professional help on the topic of dealing with a depressed man? Trust me, dealing with a depressed person is depressing.<P>You sound so blasted righteous - as if you are perfect - that it makes me nauseated. I don't think you've begun to acknowledge the fact that you are angry and need some help to deal with your life. The past and the present.<P>I really try not to flame people but sometimes someone needs to step up and say something. And I know you will flame me back. And you can just flame away. I know this is harshly worded but sometimes the blind will not be made to see anything less startling.

I'm not gonna flame you, Nellie, but you cannot blame the end of the marriage on an inanimate psychological and/or biological disease. I have depression. I got treatment. Treatment is available. Your H (and mine) had the choice to get treatment. Affairs (like alcoholism) don't happen to you.....you have to DO SOMETHING to make it happen. That is a choice that your H made, depression or not.<P>I too DO NO take blame for my H wanting to end the marriage. I do, however, realized (now) that there are things I could have done differently....ways I could have handled things differently in our marriage. Would that have made a difference? Who knows....but there is always that chance it might have. And, God knows, there are things he could have (and wishes he'd) done differently. And even if it wouldn't have made a speck of difference, I KNOW I wasn't perfect and could have acted differently....so I want to change that for me.<P>I agree with elliott45....ya gotta move on. Learn from the past, accept that it happened, and let it go. I still love my H too...but that chapter of my life is over. <P>I now want to live again. That to me means love, hope, believing, yes and even risk....all those things. (Okay....maybe I'm a little tainted on "happily ever after.") But it sounds to me like you might have an issue with depression too. A majority of family members who live with a depressed person also suffer from depression.<P>There is a verse in the Bible which says "Without hope, the people perish." That's not only true of people groups, but of individuals. You can choose to bide your time here on earth, or you can choose to hope again, however hard that might be. And I'm not saying this lightly....it was a h*ll of a two-years for me. But with God's help, I've begun to see a Light at the end of a tunnel.<P>I wish for you the best. Meanwhile, does anyone else have any "worksheet" questions/comments they want to add to the lsit?<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited September 27, 2001).]

bluebelle,<P>In almost every case where a middle aged man in a long term marriage has an affair and leaves his family, he is suffering from depression. Of course it is a sign that something is seriously wrong - depression is a serious illness. And you can not expect someone who is depressed to act in a rational way. <P>Are you saying it is my fault because I didn't recognize his depression quickly enough and find out how to "deal with it" immediately? I was supposed to somehow tell that the depression, which began immediately after the murder of a relative, was NOT situational? It is NOT my fault that my H didn't seek treatment, it is not Mrs. O's fault that her husband didn't seek treatment. <P>I went back and reread my posts and I found nothing that sounded like I was saying I was perfect, nor did I find anything that sounded angry. Did you even read my posts?<P>Mrs. O,<P>I am sure there are things I could have done better. Would it have made any difference, would it have prevented the affair? - I don't think so. <P>I am glad for you that you were able to recognize that you were depressed, and perhaps you realized that it was not situational. Unfortunately, it is fairly uncommon for depressed people, particularly men, to realize that they are depressed. It is, as I am sure you know, very common for people to, perhaps unconsciously, attempt to self-treat depression with alcohol, or risky behavior. Fortunately my H doesn't drink. Even if he had realized that his depression was not situational, I doubt very much that he would have been willing to risk all the side effects (see Chris' post from a few weeks ago). I am sure he would rather be depressed than homicidal. I do not think that there is a good solution to depression - oftentimes the treatment is worse than the disease. I realize other people swear by mood-altering drugs, but I disagree, and I am quite sure my H would also. <P>Yes, I absolutely do blame the end of my marriage on a disease. <P>elliott,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know I wasn't getting the emotional support or the respect I deserved in my marriage and because of that it pushed me away from my X and probably caused me to be depressed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Clinical depression is a chemical imbalance - it is NOT caused by someone treating you badly. Being treated badly may make you unhappy, but it doesn't make you clinically depressed.

I've come back to this at least six times... and I mean to write and then figure, who wants to hear from me, the one who dated (if you can call it that, considering the circumstances) someone as my divorce finalized and then married the guy. But I decided to weigh in anyhow.<P>TheStudent had mentioned many of the same things on her dating resume, and I thought that was a good idea, although I didn't agree with the *whole* thing. I like the idea of letting a perspective suiter know ahead of time what the rules are, how you'll react given certain situations, and CERTAINLY finding out if there is a relationship-breaker BEFORE you get too deep.<P>I like this idea, Mrs. O, and I think it's not only a dandy way to find out some truths, but let's a man know that you're serious about this. It won't be a roll in the hay and then goodbye. You mean business.<P>I'd throw in some health questions (HIV, Hep C, in particular) and make sure those tests are done first -- before the first kiss.<P>Other than that, I like it.<P>**Quick note to <B>Nellie</B>. You don't need my support or permission, but listen, very few will understand you. Most folks haven't been here for two years to see what you've been through. I remember one time I asked you how long you'd be wallowing, and you did a nice job of explaining that this is YOUR LIFE and you didn't expect me to understand, nor did you need my acceptance. I will say that I worry, Nellie, because I like you, you're **such** a smart woman, and I know you have so much to offer the world - and again, I know you don't need me patting you on the head, and you're not a kid... I know you'll be fine alone, but I'd hate to see you waiting your entire life for a man who may never return.

Nellie,<P>My depression IS due to a chemical imbalance. I am taking a chemical - Celexa (not a "mood-altering" drug) to treat it. I cannot even tell that it affects me at all, except that I am not depressed. I never have been, nor will I ever be, homicidal. I have absolutely NO side affects whatsoever. There are many of the newer anti-depressants that are very similar that have had tremendous success in treating depression, without lasting side affects. I would MUCH rather take Celexa every day for the rest of my life, than have depression.<P>Nyneve,<P>This worksheet IS NOT MEANT to be used like the "dating resume." These are not "rules" that I'm setting forth. These are not necessarily my "deal breakers." I would never dream of approaching a person with this "list" per se and grilling them or asking them to complete it. I don't deal face to face with people like that. However, these are subjects which I would want to bring up in many, many conversations as part of my gettng to know the other person. I believe discussing these subjects to be more than "filling out a form" or "reviewing a resume"...there is so much you can gather communicatively from HOW a person answers the question, than from just the question itself. (That's why I DO NO like the dating resume approach, myself.)<P>But more importantly in some ways, these are questions I want to answer for myself PRIOR to getting seriously involved again.<P>The health "questions" are things that could be included, and should be known prior to getting serious, but I view the questions as more of an avenue for discussion, an tool for internal reflection for yourself and for the other person. Not some strict "background check."<P>Anyway, that's my intent of the "worksheet"....<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Mrs. O,<P>Hi again. <P>Hey, I LIKE the idea... <P>...however, and obviously, I didn't USE anything like it, at least not formally. I met my H here (if you recall) so our lives were an open book, per se. I had nearly all my questions answered by his ex's postings, his postings, and by him personally. Before I met him, we discussed the health issues and both were tested (I had been three months before, due to my previous-marriage circumstances). He went and got tested himself, even though we didn't think he had a thing to worry about, just to be safe.<P>I also have depression issues, and take Zoloft during the dark winter months (I have SAD). My ex takes it too, and my son takes Celexa. None of us has had severe side-effect problems (altho ex had some because he wasn't eating for a year, but that's another story). <P>Depression is real, chemical, and serious. But I know ya'll know that already. I would say that my ex's undiagnosed depression played a PART in our divorce, but not entirely.

Thanks Nyneve,<P>Yes, my H's undiagnoses depression has played in BIG part in his life....I really feel sad for him in that he's had several "mid-life crises" all thru his life, which I'm sure have contributed. His drug of choice always was alcohol, which has WAAAAAAAY worse side-effects than Zoloft or Celexa! <P>But during the time I knew him and that we were married (15 years), he never drank. He was still somewhat depressed, but it was a blow-up with him Mom (in 1999) that directly led to the deeper depression, drinking again, etc., etc. I got all wrapped in (in his mind) in that dark force that is "always against him." <P>He is in counseling, but not on anti-depressants (makes me wonder about his counselor). I'm glad for him that he's at least getting some treatment. He's such a good person, talented, funny, smart, neat to be around, etc.....I hope that someday he can be happy.<P>Anymore questions to add to the "worksheet?"<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Sheryl,<P>Thanks for the support (and the compliments ). <P>I wouldn't say I am really waiting - I am just trying to raise my kids, and keep them fed and sheltered. In 17 years, when my youngest finishes college (assuming I can afford to send her), I will be almost 65 - older than my mother, my grandfathers, and one grandmother were when they died. It's not like I am likely to have to find a someone or something like a new career to occupy my time after my kids are grown - at the very least I will be of retirement age by then. <P>Mrs. O,<P>I know that some people suffer no side effects from medicine for depression - but unfortunately a fair percentage of people do. I think that the fact that my H suffers mood-altering side effects from other medication is not a good sign - I think that he would likely not be a great candidate for antidepressants.

I fell like I'm getting off topic from the way this went but going back to the original post I have some questions. Do you think if you can not yet answer those questions that you are not ready for a new relationship? Or if you answered # 7 that you have less self esteem and less respect for others now, then you are not ready?<P>And just to add my 2 cents worth on the depression thing, I am manic depressive or bipolar. I too have side effects to any and all medicines they have tried. But there are times when my emotions get out of control and the side effects are less than the trouble caused by the disease. My dr says I shld take medicine every day for the rest of my life but I get so tired of having no emotions what so ever. So I have learned to watch for the signs of an attack of either kind and get help before it gets too bad and then stop taking the meds after a couple months when I get under control again. i cant imagine anyone suffering from depression not benefiting from a little medicine and dont believe a side effect caused somebody to kill.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by what_do_i_do:<BR><B>Do you think if you can not yet answer those questions that you are not ready for a new relationship? Or if you answered # 7 that you have less self esteem and less respect for others now, then you are not ready?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's a good question. I would say, for myself, that yes...I need to figure out acceptable answers to those questions before I can get SERIOUSLY involved with someone else. I think that as you begin to date again, etc. that you may have to re-visit the questions again and re-fine your answers. You may be shown new information in dating that will affect how you originally answered the questions. <P>But as far as getting seriously involved in a new relationship...for me.....yes, I think I have to have answers to those questions.<P>As far as the self-esteem question goes, that I'm not sure of. I may THINK my self-esteem is okay right now or that I can trust and respect others now, but when I get in a dating situation, I might find out differently. Again, I think you might want to re-visit the questions as you begin dating. <P>Each new experience we have can shed light on past experiences. We may think we know EXACTLY what happened, how it happend, for what reason, etc. but as we get to know ourselves better day by day, and esp. in relationship to others, if we are open, we can learn new things.<P>Just my opinion...<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>