Hey all,<P>There are two things that my stbx did that has really affected me mentally. First of course the day he attacked me. I am still getting through that one. This may sound strange but one thing that really relieved one of my fears was being afraid that if I kissed another man his breath would make me feel sick to my stomach like stbx's did after the attack. Well while I still have other problems with the attack, this one fear has been relieved, I only feel sick when he kisses me. I think very few people will ever know or understand the great sense of relief I felt to know I'm not so screwed up enough that every guy I kiss will make me feel sick.<P>Anyway, the second thing is the affect my stbx's spying on me had. Since I went into depression and my personality to him seemed to change, he automatically thought I was having an affair and spied on me in every way. Actually I wasn't having an affair and there wasn't anyone in my life, the depression and my feelings stemmed from wanting so badly to be out of my marriage, but my religious values of no divorce was tearing me up inside. Although, I do think if things would have continued as they were, added to my state of mind at the time, looking back, I think if I would have stayed in my marriage it would have been just a matter of time before I had an affair. Although I'm not for sure if I really would have gone through with it because I am so against adultery. I really don't know if I could have ever actually committed adultery. I do have to wonder if I was just lucky our marriage ended before I got to that point, because in the long run I think I would have really screwed myself up mentally to have an affair before we divorced.<P>So anyway, now getting back to the spying. I can't begin to describe the feeling of my privacy being so violated. He read my emails, looked through my things, called my friends from the list of numbers on my cel phone and through my imagination I thought of things that he may or may not have done, such as tapping the phone lines(he had friends capable of helping him with that one). I also learned he spent money on his spying, but I never learned exactly what items he bought. He did all these things for months. I felt I had no control, no say, he bullied his way into anything and everything he wanted to look at.<P>Anyway, I felt here he is spying on me and trying to come up with some imaginary guy so he can put the blame on this imaginary person for our marriage falling apart, for me not loving him or wanting to have sex with him anymore, because that's how is is, he could never and will never take responsibility for his own actions.<P>The day he attacked me, it felt like a rape to me. Even though it wasn't sexual. I had no control over what he was doing to me. Through the days he spied on me, whether I should feel this way or not, I felt this was a sort of rape also. A rape of my privacy. I felt very violated.<P>So now, I have noticed when someone comes into my home, a repairman, carpet cleaners or a friend, whomever, I feel I have to be right there, knowing their moves or they may snoop in my stuff. I am so overly paranoid about this. I know this is not normal feelings and I want my security back. <P>During the day, I don't think about this much at all, unless someone is here, but at night, I can't sleep. It's getting better, I used to wake up all night long, lay in bed not being able to sleep, just having this eerie feeling that there's a camera on me or he's walking through the house snooping. As soon as my attorney told me I could change the locks on all the doors, I did this, and it did help alot. While it's better at night, I am still waking up. Last night I had a bad night. I woke up several times, I had to go through every room, check to make sure the doors are stilled locked just to know he's not there going through the house. One time last night, I jumped up from dreaming and I must of still been in a state of dreaming because I looked up at the ceiling and saw the smoke alarm and thought "There's the camera he installed!" Then realized it was a smoke alarm. I just thought "How ridiculous."<P>Will I ever feel secure again? Will these feelings of someone spying on me ever go away? If another man comes into my life, I worry that I will never trust him to not spy on me. Is there anyone else that has ever felt this way? Dang!!!<BR>ANNA<p>[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

Thank you so much for your post Anna2000. My H attacked me in May and I dont think I will ever get over it. I dont even know for sure I was being spied on, but I have become very paranoid. It is better now but not completely gone. I do know he started checking the mail & my email, going thru my checkbook and coming home during the day at unexpected times, he had never done any of that before. For a while I thought he probably had the house bugged and heard my telephone conversations!!! I lay awake at night listening for him sneaking into the house while we were seperated. I had almost gotten over that when I woke up at 1am with him rubbing my leg. He moved back in so I have started going by our house at lunch to get the mail and keep it at my desk at work. I have changed my email passwords and keep my check register on the computer with a password instead of in the actual checkbook register. I am not doing anything wrong but he is convinced I am. If anything he is going to drive me to somebody else!!! Anna I am so glad to know I am not the only one feeling this way.

WDID,<P>You are right, it helps to know others are out there with these fears and I'm not alone on this.<P>He kept telling me, if you don't have anything to hide then why are you worried about me seeing these things. The more he snooped the more I hid the most ridiculous innocent things. By him reading my thoughts and feelings, the things I sent to my sisters and friends, the things that didn't belong to him, I felt that he was stealing my feelings from me. I just wanted my privacy, dignity and respect back so badly.<P>Take care,<P>ANNA

Hi All,<P>Just thinking more about the whole spying thing. I'm just wondering this. Person's who think there spouse is cheating and don't believe their spouse is being faithful should have the right to find this out. They do have a right to know. However, the other person has the right to privacy. How and where should a line be drawn?<P>I was thinking also, him reading my emails and going into my purse and my belongings, and especially the possibility of having cameras on me, crossed my line, but if he would have hired a private detective to follow me or if he would have followed me, I don't think my line would have been crossed there. Or would it? I just don't know, because I don't think he ever followed me, so it wasn't an issue.<P>Well, just some more thoughts.<P>ANNA<BR>

Hi all,<P>I posted this on E/N and just wanted to share with you the conclusions I have come up with.<P>Thank you so much 4 given, Suzie Q, Happy Hus, rttrc, Daisy, trust and truth, Dana, blue bird, Zoreb and Abandoned Dad.<P>You guys all gave me such great insight. I took all the varying opinions, Dr. Harley's opinions and came to some really good conclusions.<P>Here's my thoughts now.<P>The spouse has a right to know and to prove their feelings if they feel there may be cheating. BUT, the other spouse has a right to not feel violated and to also not have things done behind their back too.<P>Stated by happy husband <B>"I think it is normal to feel violated when people spy."</B><P>Stated by SuzieQ <B>"To be honest I would not like the cameras!! Not because I have something to hide, but that to me is an invasion of personal space."</B><P>These statements, as well as others, led me to this. When a person looks through another persons things, both parties should have knowledge of this, they should come up with a contract with their spouses on where the line would be drawn on the spying. The key is to be open. By snooping without guidelines it causes stress, and while the snooper has fears of an affair, the other spouse has fears of there privacy being violated. A persons marriage must have open communication, even in spying. Neither spouse should hide their actions.<P>From the comments of Zorweb who said this <B>"I <I>asked</I> my husband to install a keystroke tracking software on his computer and I would do the same."</B><P>This was so good. This is the main statement that led me to understand there should be open communication even in spying. Most importantly, she didn't sneak behind his back to snoop. I never knew what my stbx was doing. Whether it was installing cameras or tapping the phone, or only going through my purse. It made me nervous and it was creepy. It made me paranoid. Because zorweb and spouse both have equal agreements and because there is an equal agreement, neither spouse feels violated.<P>In my case, not only did STBX never communicate what lengths is was going to in order to spy, which lead to stress of never knowing whether I was being taped or a camera was on me. There were also double standards. While he could get on my computer at work(because we worked together) and at home. I was not allowed to even put my finger on his computer. Once when I pointed this out to the counselor, the counselor asked him why. Here's his answer "Because I have private things I don't want her to see." Counselor "Then if she did get on your computer and looked through your files would you be mad?" STBX response "H*ll yes, I'd be furious!" <P>So I feel my stbx should have approached me and said "I have so many worries you are cheating on me and I need to have these fears taken away. I want to be able to go through your computer, your purse, your night stand,your cel phone bill, etc., and these are the things and in return I expect you to be able to go through any of these things of mine also. He should communicate to me if he wanted a camera or tapping on the phone and we should have been able to negotiate and agree on how much privacy I am willing to give up to prove there is no affair. To me there should have been, as Dr. Harley would recommend, a mutual agreement on both parts. If for instance husband says "I'll be calling your cel phone numbers" or if spouse says "I'm putting a camera in the bedroom", then the other spouse should be able to say, "That going to far and would embarrass me." Then they be able to arrange some kind of an agreement between them to resolve this. <P>Abandoned dad stated this "For the most part, W can look at anything of mine. She would be hurt, however, to see these posts. That would be a LB. By POJA, I should not post here.<P>I think he should be able to post here. Everyone needs a place to go to. This is a fairly reputatable site. There's no private chat on here. It's like free counseling for all of us. I think abandoned dad should be able to say to wife, "I have a marriage counseling site I go on and I share my thoughts and fears about our marriage with others. I do say personal things anoymously. I would like to keep my thoughts private. If you would feel comfortable with me going there in the future, in return I will make a contract with you to never email, privately chat with or call on the phone anyone on there." Negotiating these points of course.<P>Suzie Q wrote <B>"I have no secrets from him. BUT if he were treating me poorly and degrading me, or putting me down, or blaming me for things I did not do, I can see how a person could have an adverse reaction to having their things gone thru."</B><P>Another contract should be if either spouse finds something one spouse wrote or said there can be no disrespectful or degrading responses for writing it or saying it.<P>I do think, because our marriage had too many other issues involved and I lost all respect and stopped being in love with him on the day he attacked me, this would not have saved my marriage. I did not want my marriage saved. It was too far gone by the time the spying started. However, I do think it would have saved a lot of pain and anguish and the feelings of being so violated. <P>I don't know if this is going to help me with the feelings of paranoia of what my stbx is still doing but I do feel so much better and I do also feel that with the knowledge I now have regarding this, in my next marriage it will help me tremendously.<P>THANKS ALL.<P>ANNA<P>

Anna,<P>Hummmm,<P>I think it terrible that you are waking up in the middle of the night with these feelings. How long ago did this happen and do you think it has gotten better for you over time?<P>Perhaps some counseling for you may be helpful for you to get over this. <P>As for the spying issue in general.... I dont know...<P>I'd like to be in a relationship where I felt safe, secure, and happy enough that we (the couple) would not have 1 thing worth hiding from each other. If fact we would want to share everything...(even dumb stuff) because we would feel secure and safe enough that nothing said or done would be ridiculed or used later as a defense weapon of some sort.<P>In short we would joyfully share the good things and the bad without fear of judgement just acceptance and maybe some humor...no lots of humor <P>Ok, now on to another topic.......Anna, minus two points to you because reading between the lines of your post I understand that you are kissing on those Texas guys and if Im gonna ask you to marry me then I'll have none of that. Besides....dont those guys all smell a little like wet cows? Mooooooooooooooooooo!<P>You take care now.<P>Randy<P>

bump^<P>I will not be ignored.

Randy,<P>SAWWW-RY!! I will never ever ignore you again as long as I live and breath. hehehe After all, how can I ignore the man that is going to ask me to marry him some day! <P>1st question. How long did the spying last?<P>The spying lasted about 7 months. At first it wasn't as bad but it gradually worsened. I don't know if he's totally ended all the spying. I'm not totally secure in thinking he has yet.<P>2nd question. Is it getting better as time goes by?<P>Yes it is. Time does seem to heal. Also, this weekend, due to all the posts and the conclusions I've come to I was able to sleep better than I have in months.<P>In response to your feelings regarding marriage in this statement, you said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I'd like to be in a relationship where I felt safe, secure, and happy enough that we (the couple) would not have 1 thing worth hiding from each other. If fact we would want to share everythinging...(even dumb stuff) because we would feel secure and safe enough that nothing said or done would be ridiculed or used later as a defense weapon of some sort.<P>In short we would joyfully share the good things and the bad without fear of judgement just acceptance and maybe some humor...no lots of humor.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I would say I totally agreed. But in my marriage to my stbx we never had this agreement. He was always very secretive. He kept things hidden from me. My feelings when all of a sudden he was going through my personal belongings was I felt like I was a child and he was the parent and I could not go into his things but he could go into mine. I felt bullied. I felt I had no say. There was no compromise. There were no rules. It was very degrading. Also, he went too far. He did things that embarrassed me. <P>In my next marriage, I plan to have an agreement before we get married that basically everything I have is open to him to look at and everything he has is open for me to look at. If my next husband disagrees with this or if I disagree with some of the things he wants to do, then hopefully we will be able to negotiate and make compromise, if we can't compromise, then I won't get married. Which in this case the not doing anything would be me. I'm sure this sounds way to simple and won't solve all the problems me and my new spouse has but I am going to try to prevent this from happening again.<P>Just to give you an example of some of the things I would want to agree on is this. Absolutely no hidden cameras under any circumstances. All devises used on the computer if there's a need for spying, such as the keystroke device and other devices like it, must be known by both spouses that it is on there. If he feels a need to look through my purse, don't sneak behind my back to look, ask me, let me give it to him and then look while I'm in the room. Absolutely no double standards. One party can't say "Well, I'm not the one that is being questioned on cheating, so you are not allowed to go through my wallet, but I think you may be cheating so I'm going into your purse." That just won't do in my book.<P>Well anyway I hope you feel less ignored now. <P>Take care,<P>ANNA <p>[This message has been edited by Anna2000 (edited October 01, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anna2000:<BR>[B]Randy,<P>"SAWWW-RY!! I will never ever ignore you again as long as I live and breath. hehehe After all, how can I ignore the man that is going to ask me to marry him some day! "<P><BR>That is so much better and for being so sweet in the way you answered my "kind of" demanding post, you get two points.<P><BR>"2nd question. Is it getting better as time goes by?<P>Yes it is. Time does seem to heal. Also, this weekend, due to all the posts and the conclusions I've come to I was able to sleep better than I have in months."<P><BR>That is a good thing Anna, your babies need you to be rested and happy. I know I can get a little crabby if I dont get the proper rest. And nobody needs that.<P>"In response to your feelings regarding marriage in this statement, you said I would say I totally agreed. But in my marriage to my stbx we never had this agreement. He was always very secretive. He kept things hidden from me. My feelings when all of a sudden he was going through my personal belongings was I felt like I was a child and he was the parent and I could not go into his things but he could go into mine. I felt bullied. I felt I had no say. There was no compromise. There were no rules. It was very degrading. Also, he went too far. He did things that embarrassed me."<P>He really hurt you didnt he?<P>There is a word for this....its [censored]. Excuse the french please. <P><BR>"In my next marriage, I plan to have an agreement before we get married that basically everything I have is open to him to look at and everything he has is open for me to look at. If my next husband disagrees with this or if I disagree with some of the things he wants to do, then hopefully we will be able to negotiate and make compromise, if we can't compromise, then I won't get married. Which in this case the not doing anything would be me. I'm sure this sounds way to simple and won't solve all the problems me and my new spouse has but I am going to try to prevent this from happening again."<P>This is a very good description of POJA and isnt it nice to know that your future husband (me) already knows and agrees (in fact) demands this! Well unless you dont agree ofcourse. <P>"Just to give you an example of some of the things I would want to agree on is this. Absolutely no hidden cameras under any circumstances. All devises used on the computer if there's a need for spying, such as the keystroke device and other devices like it, must be known by both spouses that it is on there. If he feels a need to look through my purse, don't sneak behind my back to look, ask me, let me give it to him and then look while I'm in the room. Absolutely no double standards. One party can't say "Well, I'm not the one that is being questioned on cheating, so you are not allowed to go through my wallet, but I think you may be cheating so I'm going into your purse." That just won't do in my book."<P><BR>Whats good for the goose is always good for the gander. Yep, I agree.<P><BR>"Well anyway I hope you feel less ignored now. "<P>Yes I do. And I told you it was sweet and I awarded you two...not one but two points. Are you keeping track?<P><BR>You take good care of yourself Windy.<P>YFH Randy<P><p>[This message has been edited by Randy0220 (edited October 01, 2001).]

My stbx husband recorded my telephone conversations for 2 years. 8 months before he took me as his wife, he rigged the PC and the telephone. Not sure how much money he spent on this, but it was pretty clever. Everytime the telephone was picked up, it turned on by it's self. Everytime someone called and left a message on the answering machine. It was recorded. 2 years of lies. He was paranoid and obsessed. When he finally admitted it, it was all a game to him. We are about 2 weeks away from our divorce being final. <BR>Never a reason to give him reasons to believe that I was lying to him. He just wanted to know everything, so he says. <P>He has gotten into therapy and was diagnosed with several different illnesses. <P>I am now paranoid about everyone and everything. I feel as though am being watched. As someone has a recording device in my head. I cannot have my own inner thoughts any longer. <P>I felt betrayed and lied to. He married me knowing that he was already recording me. He wasn't the man he portrayed himself to be. And now, here I am, 25 yrs old, soon to be divorced. The recording wasn't the reason why it fell apart. It was the final cut in the very thin thread that was holding us together. <P>The man that I trusted more than anyone, my life, my family, my future. He was everything to me. And now, I am alone. Starting over again. Just older, full of debt and heartache...<P>I completely understand how you feel. I don't sleep well. My relationships with everyone have suffered. I don't trust anyone. I feel as though am being watched and followed and spied on constantly. <P>The worst part of it all is....analyzing your entire relationship. Thinking about certain days and certain things that went on. Sadly, it all makes sense now. The picture fits so perfectly. <P>I found the recording device after he hid it on me again. he left the last cassette in it. Little does he know, he forgot to delete his own conversations. I should have never heard them. Made me sick to my stomach. He wanted to buy a gun, but couldn't tell his best friend who he wanted to use it on. That is how sick he got towards the end. He is now on meds and is finally leaving me alone, but he is also drinking now....I feel as though it's only a matter of time. <P>

Jenniffer,<P>Well, it sounds like your stbx is more nuttier than mine. Sorry, that may not be helping you.<P>He may leave you alone right now, but is there anyway you could move to another town. It sounds like your life may be in danger. You may not think you can afford leaving, but think of it this way. Can you afford it if he goes off the deep end and comes after you?<P>I hope I am not making you feel worse than better. It's just I am so shocked by the things he has done and the possibility of him wanting to shoot someone.<P>At least consider a security system if you don't already have one.<P>Take care and keep us posted.<P>ANNA<BR>