Nellie1,<P>A biological cause of depression is not what I am talking of here, and to be honest, you can't make an assumption of such based on the book written by a woman who was a housewife:<P>"She never claimed that she had conducted a scientific study. I agree the author was struggling to find an explanation - but not one that necessarily left her "blameless" - just an explanation of how a man who loved her for so many years could turn against her so suddenly and completely."<P>You brought up the depression thing in one of your posts here, but it doesn't say clinical depression either, which must be properly diagnosed.<P>There is probably depression in ALL of our WS's cases. I KNOW mine was/is but he won't admit it, nor will he go for help...he did once and refused the doctor's advice. But this doesn't mean that it was 'clinical'. She never used that word to him or me.<P>I contend that the WS is depressed...we as BS's have to ask ourselves why. It is not always going to be a chemical imbalance, and from what I have read here about the author of that book, she is in no position to contend that it IS. <P>People who are depressed reject a LOT of things they previously enjoyed, it is true...but my interest is WHY they got depressed in the first place. I have been severely depressed in the past, so I too know what I am talking about with the experience of depression. It is NOT always a chemical imbalance, and so the BS is not blameless. That's all!

I read Madeline Bennett's book more than a year ago, a few weeks after my wife deserted me. Yes, the book is unbalanced and unscientific, and the author's "Wife Rejection Syndrome" formulation is a bit gimmicky for my taste. But I think it's a real shame that this book is out of print, since despite its flaws it is a <I>very</I> useful book - if only because of its uniqueness (a much better book on the same subject is easy to envision). After my wife left, I looked all over for some kind of an explanation, anything that could help me make sense out of what had happened to me and to my wife. I looked through dozens of books and articles, without gaining much insight until I found Bennett's book. That <I>started</I> me on the road to understanding. (And please note the emphasis on the word <I>started</I>.)<P>The fact is, despite the "large" numbers of relationships that pretty much follow the pattern laid out by Bennett (not, I believe, her real name), the vast majority of marital breakups do <I>not</I> match the pattern well at all. And unless you have watched your spouse proceed through Bennett's flowchart as if he - or she (despite Bennett's skepticism, women are not immune) - were running a computer program, Bennett's claims are likely to seem too bizarre to be believed. It is much easier to assume that the aggrieved party isn't telling the whole story. <P>Yeah, it would be nice to hear from both sides, but remember that those of us who have experienced this <I>have</I> heard both sides. We've lived one side, and we've heard the other side from our spouses. That may not be enough to persuade anybody else, but it's enough for us (and those who know us best).<P>For the "believers", though, I think it's important to remember that "Wife Rejection Syndrome" is <I>not</I> a computer program. People are non-deterministic and complex, and Bennett even gave an example of a husband who snapped back out of it. Finding resonance with Bennett's scenarios is a pretty poor reason to give up hope, in my opinion, and an equally poor reason to close the books on the case, as if "Wife Rejection Syndrome" explains everything.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited October 01, 2001).]

Nina,<P>When I doctor tells a patient he or she is depressed, he does normally mean clinical depression. There is such a thing as situational depression, brought on by a catastrophic life event such as the death of a loved one.<P>You seem to be using the word "depression" to mean unhappiness, and that is NOT the technical meaning of the term. A spouse can not cause the other to be depressed, anymore than one can cause the other to have liver cancer.

Nellie,<P>You said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> A spouse can not cause the other to be depressed, anymore than one can cause the other to have liver cancer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I surely hope you didn't mean this. If you did you haven't been doing much reading here lately. Most BS endup very very depressed and in need of anti-D's for a period of time. The reason??? The spouses behavior.<P>JL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>Most BS endup very very depressed and in need of anti-D's for a period of time. The reason??? The spouses behavior.<P>JL</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>JL, just a minute I need to put on my flame retardant suit. OK....<P>I have no professional backing but I respectfully disagree. Sure there is situational depression but in my opinion that is not caused by another individual, rather it is caused by our ability to cope with certain circumstances. <P>If I say that my "depression", after my BS abandoned me was caused by her, I would be saying that she had the ability to control me, and more than likely if I said that then I probably had some emotional problems that I needed to deal with before she left. <P>Sure a lot of BS go through a "depression" of some sort after the trauma of their marriage ending but I don't believe that the majority of them end up on anti-d's rather I would think that it is the minority. Again, I'm just speculating here and sharing my opinion.<P>Just my $.02, interesting topic.<P><P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

Sorry Bill,<P>But even Harley recommends that the BS consider the use of anti-D's. Further Nellie didn't specify the type of depression. Situational or otherwise, the treatment is the same because the brain response is the same; a chemical embalance. <P>And yes, I do disagree on one further point, sorry. Your W did have considerable control over your life and your feelings. Didn't her affair change your life? Didn't it change your feelings? Didn't it change your approach to life? It usually does.<P>Why? Well, my feeling is that when we marry we do become one in many ways. Therefore the spouse is capable of controlling and hurting us as few other people on this planet can.<P>However, having said all of this, I do agree that depression can play a factor in how we see our spouses and how we interpret their behavior. I think that is an important point to include, but as someone pointed out, how our spouses treat us may have led to our level of depression.<P>Finally, this book that BB brought up fails to point out, that women do this to men also and it isn't about careers, shame disappointment, so forth because many are SAHM. Just another theory supported by preselected data. Often done, rarely very useful, unless of course you will buy anything.<P>Bill, I know you read alot here, but go over to the General Questions, or Recovery section and ask how many are on or have been on anti-d's since discovery. You will be surprised I think.<P>Finally, I must say if my W didn't have the ability to control me and affect my feelings and emotions, I would really be worried about my marriage. She is supposed to be such a part of my life that she has that power.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: I am sure that Nellie and billbaily will also enlighten me as to the errors of my thinking.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>A spouse can not cause the other to be depressed, anymore than one can cause the other to have liver cancer.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>I surely hope you didn't mean this. If you did you haven't been doing much reading here lately. Most BS endup very very depressed and in need of anti-D's for a period of time. The reason??? The spouses behavior.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Strange as it may seem, I think you're both right.<P>I struggled with depression for a number of years. I do not believe that I would have succumbed to depression if it were not for the way my wife treated me, and yet I do not believe that her behavior <I>caused</I> my depression. I believe that my depression was a response - in involuntary response - to her behavior, but it was not an inevitable response. That is, I could have responded in some other way.<P>I suspect that some hereditary component was involved in the selection of my response. Depression seems to run in my mother's side of the family. But more importantly, I believe that my depression was not a <I>direct</I> response to my wife's behavior. Rather, it was a response to how her behavior conflicted with my expectations. Depression is a protective mechanism of sorts. In my case, I used it to hide from certain hurts and fears that I did not want to face. If I had faced those hurts and fears from the beginning, I don't think my potential for depression would have been triggered. But, I guess I wasn't ready.<P>In other words, my depression had more to do with my lack of maturity than with my wife's behavior. Or so I believe.<P>Interestingly enough, when my wife eventually deserted me, suddenly and without discussion or warning or explanation, I did <I>not</I> fall back into depression. I experienced shock and grief, yes, but none of those black empty episodes with which I had become so familiar. I believe that's because I had already learned that I could face hurt and fear without being destroyed, and even though the pain I was experiencing was greater than anything I had ever imagined, I no longer <I>needed</I> my depression.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by billbailey:<BR><B>MB will NOT work for my situation, regardless of what anyone else thinks - so adios.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Billbailey, I hope you're out there lurking because I'd like the opportunity to talk to you a little. <P>Sure your situation may be HOPELESS, but that doesn't mean that MB's won't help you. The principles help you through the greiving process and provide you with a healthier foundation for your relationship with your X, if there is to be one. Not to mention learning about what a healthy relationship is all about, provided you're going to have one in the future. But more importantly, the people, help you through the rough spots as well as share in the good times. Believe it or not there is somebody here who is in pretty much the exact same boat you are in and for that one person there are 5 who went through it before.<P>MB did not help me with saving my marriage but it did help me in saving myself from making some real stupid decisions through my divorce. It gave me tons of friends who loved me when I felt unloveable......<P>Say "Adios" if you like, but we'd love for you to stay..<P>If you ever need to vent to some one who cares<P>bill@salinaplaningmill.com<P>Good Luck my friend and God speed!!!!<P><P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

First off, this is one of the best topics I’ve seen, there are no wrong answers, only opinions. Plus it’s a great starter for some self-discovery.<P>JL – <P>I would never discourage the use of anti’d’s. I’m quite sure that they could of helped me through some rough times, I simply chose not to seek or use them.<P>I see your point about the ability to control but I submit to you that no matter how close you are to your spouse, you still control your reactions to a situation. If my wife told me she was having an affair it’s a given that I’m going to feel a certain amount of hurt, so yes they have the ability to hurt, but I still choose my next reaction. I can become angry, violent, sad, happy, or any other emotion/action that I choose. Therefore, she cannot control my reaction even if some reactions are stereotypical.<P>Finally, I totally agree that your wife should have the ability to affect your feelings/emotions but I don’t believe that it should be to the point of control. I believe that if you lose your ability to control your actions in any situation then it’s an unhealthy situation to be in.<P>Man, this is a great topic, I’m smiling from ear to ear… I love it…..<P>Thank you,<BR><P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

After spending over 2 weeks in a Psychiatric Hospital upon learning of my H's numerous A's the most valuable thing I learned (and this was from daily on the hour therapy)was:<P><BR> "DEPRESSION IS ANGER TURNED INWARD"<P><BR>And yes, other people do make us angry & we hurt & we surpress & we get so angry that it turns into depression<P>I believe it's all situational. I was in the hospital with 14 year olds & 75 year olds....SAME STORY...someone, somewhere, somehow in their life "hurt" them. Some were physical, some mental...not one of us in there just woke up one day feeling depressed.<P>I also believe that the chemical imbalance is first triggered by the "situation". Our minds control our bodies & when someone messes with our head quess what? We produce chemicals & react.<P>Plan Aing to me is simple holding that "anger" in. It needs to be "let out" to move on & grow.<P>Just my 2 cents.<P><BR>My H is the Louser. I'm Lisa.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by louser:<BR><B>Plan Aing to me is simple holding that "anger" in. It needs to be "let out" to move on & grow.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>(((((((((((((((Lisa)))))))))))))))))<P>That's exacly what I'm talking about. For what ever reason either concious or sub-concious you chose to react the way you did. Your husband did not MAKE you react, you did.<P>Yes we do have to let that anger out and we have to have a HEATHY way of letting it out. I'm not saying that you did anything wrong, you only did what you knew how to do, but for me, I knew how I could deal with it.<P>I'm just saying that all emotions are a choice. You can choose to love or to hate, it's up to you.<P><BR>Hope all works out well for you.<P>Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers from Kansas.......<P>

I am sorry if I did not make it clear that I was talking about clinical depression.<P>There is some research that I have read that indicates that anti-depressants do not work well in cases of situational depression. If I remember correctly, I read one study where the researchers gave placebos to half the group of people who had been diagnosed with situational depression and anti-depressants to the other - and after some period of time "measured" their depression - and there was little or no difference. One of the characteristics of situational depression is that it is self-limiting. Just to confuse the situation, for those who are bi-polar, the episodes of depression rarely last more than two years in succession - and some cycle quickly between depression and mania, even several times a day.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by louser:<BR><B>"DEPRESSION IS ANGER TURNED INWARD"<P>And yes, other people do make us angry & we hurt & we surpress & we get so angry that it turns into depression<P>I believe it's all situational. I was in the hospital with 14 year olds & 75 year olds....SAME STORY...someone, somewhere, somehow in their life "hurt" them. Some were physical, some mental...not one of us in there just woke up one day feeling depressed.<P>I also believe that the chemical imbalance is first triggered by the "situation". Our minds control our bodies & when someone messes with our head quess what? We produce chemicals & react.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am no expert on depression, but I think this characterization of it is too simplistic.<P>First, I don't believe that depression is necessarily <I>anger</I> turned inward. For example, anger itself is often (though not always) a secondary response to <I>fear</I>.<P>Second, although so-called "major depression" generally <I>is</I> first triggered by a specific situation, subsequent episodes often do not have a discernable cause. It is as if the response to the initial trigger situation establishes a pattern, or carves out a depression (if you will pardon the pun) in the psychological landscape that becomes a natural trap for the spirit. (Please don't read too much into my choice of words here. I am trying to avoid technical terms that might make it look as if I knew what I was talking about.) However, there are many forms of depression, and not all involve a situational trigger.<P>Third, a situational trigger for depression does not always involve "someone" causing hurt. Sometimes it is life itself that is experienced as the source of hurt, because the world turns out not to be what it was "supposed" or expected or wanted to be. When you've built your life on cherished illusions, it can be hard to give them up.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Plan Aing to me is simple holding that "anger" in. It needs to be "let out" to move on & grow.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That strikes me as a...peculiar...interpretation of Plan A. I don't think that's what it is at all.<P>I agree that anger needs to be addressed rather than suppressed (although I'm not sure what "let out" means in this context), but I don't believe Plan A is in any way incompatible with that.<P>Not that Plan A is suitable for everyone; it is no panacea. As I see it, Plan A is about finding resolution without delusion. And it is about learning to be the best person you can be. It is not about getting revenge, or about escaping from a dangerous or intolerable situation.<BR>

just wanted to comment on antidepressants. Dont let any stigmas of society get in the way of considering them. <P>I have been thru HELL the last 6 months. H & I still are under the same roof & so I have a microscopic hope (still) that we could somehow figure out a way to make things work & renew our marriage. Right now its still in limbo & he still rejects me. <P>I commented so many times to friends that I was living with Jekyll & Hyde. He went from the most docile kind person to a mean vicious spiteful hateful persom blaming me for EVERYTHING in the world!! Screaming, yelling, throwing things etc. We both seperately attended therapy (individually- still not for marriage). He secretly began taking an anti-anxiety med. Then I think he tried a sample of anti-depressants for at least 1 month. All our friends have noticed a difference in him. Much quieter & more relaxed & way less paranoid. Still rejects me though.<P>As for me, a HUGE difference by taking anti-depressants. I am not clinically or manic depressed. It is situational from having the only man who I have ever been with, known for 14yrs married for 9 1/2, treat me such: abandoning me emotionally & physically. He is the only "family" I have. Prior to 'meds' I was crying constantly. I couldnt breathe almost. I wanted to crawl into a hole & never wake up. Though I could never harm myself, I wished I would not wake up from sleep. I cried driving to work in am, cried throughout the whole day at work running to the bathroom to hide my tears when they flowed too much, cried in pm driving home, cried on the phone & at friends houses. I obsessed over what HE must be doing every second of every day. Tried to second guess every though/action of his. Would focus on one thought over & over again, never benefitting from it.<P>I have been taking Effexor for about 2 months now. It has made the world of difference to me. My thoughts are not racing constantly & I feel more in control of what I think about. I am much better able to rationalize situations (though sometimes I feel I might be making excuses). But when I can stop & think of some reasons a situation might be happening I am much less upset. I have cried once or twice with sadness since, but its been WAY LESS overwhelming. And I had ran out between refills at the time. <P>I think no one should have to go thru what many of us have been put thru. It is like a death, except our current or ex spouse & reminders of them are still around. I would recommend anti-depressants (along with more than 5 appts of therapy) for many! Willpower is NOT enough under these circumstances. Yes, prayer may be for the faithful, but for the rest of us, give it a try if you think you need it!<P>I wish the wayword spouses would stop & think that their family lives & marriages are not so bad at all & the problems really are trivial, when you look at the pain of what the people who lost their loved ones in the NY tragedy are going thru.

This is an interesting thread. I definitely agree that depression and life disappointments play roles in many affairs. However, there are scores of depressed people who do not have affairs. Using "depression" alone as they "why" is inadequate. Look at how many depressed BS's are here and they are not/did not have an affair.<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Not all clinically depressed people commit suicide - thank goodness. Yet depression is the why behind most cases of suicide. <P>Depression affects different people differently - some commit suicide, some have affairs, some drink or use drugs, some do none of the above. But in all cases, depression affects one's ability to make rational decisions. To some extent the method of "self-treatment" is a function of opportunity. Women in general are more likely to seek medical treatment for depression than are men, probably because there is a cultural stigma associated with male depression.

OK, I do agree that people react to their depression in different ways. That begs the question then, of what OTHER factor/factors lead depressed people to have affairs(or to other destructive behaviors) vs. those depressed people that do not??? Hence, I go back to my opinion that depression alone does not explain why some people who were in apparently happy marriages have affairs.<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Roll Me Away:<BR><B>That begs the question then, of what OTHER factor/factors lead depressed people to have affairs(or to other destructive behaviors) vs. those depressed people that do not??? Hence, I go back to my opinion that depression alone does not explain why some people who were in apparently happy marriages have affairs.<BR>Desiree</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Okay, so I'm still lurking. Just not posting much. <P>It's really hard to explain to others how one person can be so happy and content in their marriage and the other be so miserable BUT HIDE IT for years and years and have affairs and be dishonest - but continue to show the whole world how happy he is with his marriage and life - because the happy person can't explain it and the unhappy one doesn't give rational answers. The unhappy one refuses to accept responsibility for their actions and the affects of their actions on their families. They blame everyone else for their unhappiness. Most of us left behind wonder why, if they've been unhappy for so damned long, why didn't they get out before putting in 20+ years of marriage. Why didn't they ever mention that they weren't unhappy? Why does it drop like a bomb, shattering the lives it leaves behind? <P>I realize it's hard to understand if you've never been there, but for those of us who have experienced this, it is truly life-shattering to discover that your marriage has been a sham. WHY? WHY? The only answer I've been able to come up with is complacency. After 20+ years we probably start to take each other for granted and fall into routines. I guess those routines are comfortable and secure for some, and not for the others.<P>I have, of course, been doing a lot of soul-searching - but don't interpret that to mean I accept responsibility for what he did. What I have been able to correlate to is my parents marriage. My mother treated my father like a king, and taught us to do the same. And he did to her what mine did to me. Unfortunately, hindsight is always 20/20. I treated mine like a king, too. So does this mean I killed my marriage with kindness and love? What a scary thought.<BR>

Your thread is making me think, I've got to admit that. Because taken as you have described it, this syndrome thing could fit my H as well.<P>BUT, he got more successful before he dumped me, not less.<P>You are asking all the same questions we all have bb, and nothing will ever make sense to me about this...that's why I said we keep groping for answers. NOTHING will ever give us the answers to this.<P>I read somewhere tonight...a post by someone called proudofme, who is a couple of years down the track from all of this. She was looking for a reason...and sort of said that the whole thing was a product of both of them, and that in the end, no amount of analysing was going to give her the answers. But she had accepted it, and moved on.<P>I wish we could all get straight answers from our WS's, but we may have to accept that we never will. And why they did the things they did...it all boils down to this for me...no matter WHAT was wrong with them, it was STILL a personal choice to go and bonk someone else. End of story...and there IS no excuse for that. And never will be.<P>Sorry, I know that sounds like I am attacking you...it is really directed at WS's. Honest!<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nina too:<BR><B>BUT, he got more successful before he dumped me, not less.<P>Mine, too. He's as far up that ladder as he's ever been. Maybe it's a good thing 'cause this way he'll be able to afford both of us (me & the ow) and the kids!! I know. Meow.<P>..no matter WHAT was wrong with them, it was STILL a personal choice to go and bonk someone else. End of story...and there IS no excuse for that. And never will be.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't take that personally at all. I 100% totally agree with you - there is absolutely no reason. None. If you're not happy, fix it. If you can't fix it, get out.<P>I think one of the things that is so hard to handle is the level of rage he is now projecting at me. When you're used to seeing and feeling love from someone, it is terrifying to see it turn to rage. That's part of the confusion that we're trying to understand. I tend to be kind of black and white about things: If I know about it, I can deal with it. It's the unknown stuff that makes me crazy. Guess I'd better get used to a "gray" world for awhile.<P>teresa