gottruth?,<P>You wrote on another thread that you were formerly emotionally abusive to your daughter and that you have changed a lot. What started the changes? My MIL is like that. Every time W calls her mom, W becomes upset - asking "why can't she treat me like an adult". It has been a real problem - really the root of all our marriage problems. W says her Mom "made her" marry me. I keep telling W that until she confronts her Mom and tells her how she feels, her Mom will never change. She may not change even then, but there is no chance if W doesn't tell her how she feels.<P>What happened in your case?<P>-AD

A dad<BR>Have you read my replies to still reeling here on DD? The title is The right thing. This will tell you some more information about my situation. <P>I will reply to you in more depth tomorrow as I'm supposed to be watching "swiss family robinson" with my family right now. I just wanted you to know that I did see your Post and that I will be back.<BR> <BR>In the mean time please read "the right thing" by still reeling. <P>------------------<BR>Marry

OK, I'm back and I have been thinking about your post. <BR>By emotionally abusive I have to say that I did a lot of disrespectful judgements.<P> If a creditor called here, I would have called her up, even at work, and harshly talked to her. Then I would gather articals on credit and money and send them to her. I should have, Calmly called and with a conversational tone relayed the message.<P>If I caught her in a lie, I would shame her and lecture her on lying. I should have ignored it or lovingly told her how it made me feel.<BR> <BR>Much of this was in college and I felt taken advantage of. <BR>The truth is that we got in the way of lifes natural lessons and enabled her to be a spoiled brat and then "got all over her" when she would act the way we had trained her to be(allowed her too).<P>Her affair with a MM (she 23) was the last straw. I went ballistic. I shamed her, tried to educate her, thretened her. She then had us come to one of her counseling sessions and told us that her life was none of her business. She said that she knew the concequences and was ready to take them like an adult. At the time, I thought this was the worst thing that could have ever happened to me/us. After all, "look what we had done for her", sent her to University of Spoiled Daughters, bought her a car, and "not held her accountable". The truth is that, that session was the best thing that she could have done for us and for herself.<P>Now what i did, I Felt sorry for myself, took anti-depresants, made everyone around me misserable. I thought I could not be happy untill "my Daughter was OK", I put my own life on hold. I"m such a "good mother" aren't I?<P>Many things helped turn the corner and please know that this is still a process. I did know that we had to hold the line that was set up in that office at the counselors. She did come ask us for money when she had spent her rent. We said "please don't tell us about it, it is none of our business". But that simple sentence that could have been said in seconds took two hours of crying, yelling, "you could of's" , "you should ofs" etc. Holding the line was the right thing to do, shaming was the wrong thing to do. As with MB concepts, "the wrong cancels the right".<P>I then was sent a friend "by God". She gave me the book "The Dance Of Anger". Now you have to know that I would not have been ready for this friend or book before this time.<BR>Next, I accepted an invitation, from my friend, to go to Ala-non. I was so very ready to hear the message, I was like a sponge.<BR>I found MB and read and read and read.....................<P>Now please ask some questions. This is just an over view, as with any story of lifes journey there is so much more.<P>If your wife has major issues with her mother I could see where this could cause problems in all areas of her life. After all " If my mother thinks I'm a flunky then I must be". Right!<BR> <P>------------------<BR>Marry

gottruth?<P>Thanks for your posting. I'm off to evening church right now, but I'll post again later tonight. I'd like to discuss it further with you.<P>Thanks,<P>-AD

Marry,<P>Thank you for taking the time to write.<BR>I'm sorry if my reply seems disjointed, but I wanted to ask a few questions before I forget them.<P>You mentioned Al-anon. Does your D drink?<P>Do you think you would have changed your relationship if she had not asked you to come to her counseling session?<P>How did you treat her when she was a teenager and younger?<P>Do you have other children and if so, what is the condition of your relationships with them - and have those relationships changed as you changed your relationship with this daughter?<P>Is your daughter adopted?<BR>Are you still married to her father?<P>In my W's case, she was the youngest child by 10 years. She was adopted when her parents' two oldest sons had already married and their third sone was in high school.<P>Her Dad was distant.<P>How involved was your husband (or your daughters father) in her upbringing?<P>My mother-in-law was verbally abusive to my wife when she was growing up - often calling her names, telling her she was stupid, dirty, clumsy, proud, lazy etc. etc. My W worked as hard as she could to please her Mom. She never asked for anything. Her parents would often leave her at home when they went places. They would promise her "you can go with us next summer", but they never took her. She did have a relative to look after her while they were gone, but she just didn't get to go anywhere. Sometimes, for example, her nieces, who lived nearby would have a birthday and everybody would go but my W - who would be asked to stay home to "look after things". They might bring her a piece of cake when they came home.<P>Just when she was 14, her Mom broke one of her front teeth by hitting her in the face with a metal bucket. Something to do with not milking the goats on time or something like that. Throughout highschool, she kept her mouth closed - or would cover her mouth when she spoke - because she was ashamed of the broken tooth. So, there was some physical abuse as well as emotional.<P>An example of the emotional abuse... In high school, my W, on her own initiative, started studying French on the side - not as a class, and showed her work to her Mom. Her Mom didn't say "that's nice" - but ripped out the pages of her notebook - telling her that her handwriting was sloppy. She would often do that to her schoolwork - or come in her room and pull everything out of the closet and throw it on the floor because the blouses and skirts weren't in the "correct order".<P>I knew about a lot of this - and I knew that her parents liked me and wanted her to marry me - but I didn't know that she was unable to resist her Mom. My W's parents live in europe - 7000 miles away - so I didn't think it mattered. But, when we were engaged and W decided she wanted to delay the marriage, she called her Mom to talk about it - and her Mom told her that if she didn't marry me on the scheduled date she would never speak to her again. It took me 6 months after the marriage to find this out. All I knew was that almost immediately after the marriage - within a few weeks, W became extremely hostile. I kept asking "Why are you doing these things?!" - and she wouldn't tell me - but finally, I got the answer.<P>Anyway, your case is probably quite different from my W's Mom - but I wonder if you have any suggestions on how to somehow get MIL to see the light. We only talk to her by phone - but every time W calls her - she ends up hurt, angry - sometimes crying.<P>Thanks for your interest.<P>-AD

A.D. WOW! I'm blown away with the abuse. This is severe! Please get your wife into counseling as soon as possible.<P>I will ansewer every question you asked but I had to say this first.<P>Ala-non is for any addiction but usually chemical, as you said. Yes, she does drink but I have no reason to think that this is a problem. I'm going because it is a program that deals with co-dependancy and they also do the 12 step program.<BR>I believe that "her taking us to the counselors" was a turning point and made it all happen sooner.<BR>Our daughter is adopted. I felt that she was a gift from God. I would correct people who would referr to her as my "adopted" D. I do not believe that this is a factor and if anything, my husband favored her because she was the only girl. She is charming and beautiful and frequently "gets her own way". Many times beautiful and charming people are not held accountable and get away with things that hurt their character.<BR>She was not treated differently from the boys. We sent her to a college that was 4 times the cost of our older son. She demanded more and got it. The abuse is that "We allowed her to be more demanding". I acutally now believe that self esteme comes from solving your own problems. I believe we robed her of the hardships that create character and gave in to her demands. We did not want her to be "unhappy". We were so wrong in this approach. when we finally let go and said "you need to be on your own", she fell. BUT, the good news is that she got herself up and finished college, got a great job and is dealing with life. Her success is her own and is making her proud of herself. I don't know where the Affair is right now.<BR>We have been married for 31yrs<BR>She WAS the light of her dads life. He was so crushed about her A that he is now more distant.<BR>There was NEVER name calling. I did get angry and sometimes mean. I love her so much that it truly is hard for me to admitt these things. <BR>There was a tringle set up between her dad and Her and I. this dynamic is addressed in the book "The Dance of Anger". It became them against me. We went to two counselors who said to my husband "get with the program". My husband is not a mean man, just not aware. We have since broken the tringle. <P>From what you have written about your wife, I feel so very sorry for both of you. She has not been taught how to love and mostly she has NOT been taught how to love herself or how love another. This is a serious problem and may not have anything to do with you at all. She may not have wanted to marry you BECAUSE her "mother" wanted her too. I know this sound strange but I believe that alot of what my daughter does has to do with what she precives I want or don't want. This is why I need to be out of that part of her life so she can formulate her own thoughts (without my judgement). <BR>You have so many more variables involved in your situation than most. <BR>What are you doing about all of this?<P>------------------<BR>Marry

Marry,<P>Thanks for the posting.<P>It is very interesting that both your D and my W are adopted. You know, an adopted child begins with a horrible tragedy in life. To lose your parents - especially your mother - by whatever means - is a tragedy - and I think it affects all adoptees - especially those who were old enough to remember it.<P>My W was adopted at age 6 (tho nobody really knows her birthdate or true age - it was estimated by the orphanage). She remembers what happened a little bit. She was always afraid that her parents would "send her back". That made her very eager to please them. She was an excellent student up to about the 9th grade, then had one bad year but finished well - almost straight A's throughout. In college, however, she just lost her way - just couldn't make herself study (she is still a student - taking 2 classes this semester). She doesn't handle stress well at all - so exams and deadlines for papers just tear her up. She just freezes.<P>You suggested counselling. My W has been to some counseling the year before we married. The counselor thought she was anorexic. I read up on it, but concluded that she wasn't. She also was treated for depression during that time - but didn't like the meds - said they made her feel sluggish. She sometimes doesn't eat, but she always will eat if she is hungry and food is around. Her weight is OK and she went through a pregnancy with reasonable - though low - weight gain.<P>As she raises our baby she is beginning to face the abuse that she suffered as a child. She always just thought that that was the way it was. Now, as she thinks about her own daughter, she realizes that she was badly treated - and is resolved to raise our daughter completely differently.<P>Because of the abuse, I think, she has very low self-esteem, low self-confidence, doesn't trust the future - wants to know what will happen in advance. She is very indecisive.<P>I like the what you said about correcting people. My W and I have talked about adopting ourselves sometime. Well, we talked about it when we were together. Now we're separated and seem to be headed for divorce. She always refers to her Mom, brothers, family as just that - not "my adoptive brother" or any of that. We agree that if we have more than one child - some born to us and some adopted, we would not in any way distinguish between them. Neither would we have secrets from them. Her family kept the adoption like a taboo subject. She looks quite different from her parents - being from central asia and they being european - so everyone could see that she was adopted. She always wanted to look different - to have light hair and blue eyes like her classmates. I have worked hard to pursuade her that she is beautiful.<P>I have the book "Dance of Anger", but have not read it. My W is the one with the anger problem. She has been much calmer since she moved out, however. Still sometimes, I see in her eyes a reflection of her Mom. For example, I was standing up eating in the kitchen the other day - and dropped my knife - and she gave me a look - probably her Mom would have called her names - "clumsy", "stupid" etc. if she dropped something - and she has the same reflexes and often calls me names like that in such situations.<P>Well W just called - got to go.<P>-AD

AD,<P>Becoming a parent can bring up things in our past, issues with our own parents, for one.<P>Gosh I was SO angry with my mum, when I had my first child...I could not see how she was so distant to us, when obviously children are a gift, and you should show them all the love you can.<P>And with all my pregnancies, I got more and more resentful of her, and the way I was treated.<P>One day I had it out with her but it didn't make any long-term difference to her behaviour, just to mine. I can't change her, or anyone else, can I?<P>I HOPE it made me a better parent, but I am not sure...sometimes I say things to my kids and I think I sound just like she did.<P>It can leave you with a lot of scars...maybe this contributed to your w's situation.<P>BTW, my mum had a lot of issues I didn't fully appreciate at the time...she was a BS, so now I know what she was dealing with a lot of the time, cos dad was a serial WS.<P>Don't know if this helps a lot...I know you said SOMETHING that got me started on this!!!<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky

Jacky<BR>You are such a gift. You are steady, positive and have such wisdom and insight. I'm glad you joined in on this discussion and I hope others do as well. This subject effects so many and we aren't always aware that what we do is abuse. Many feel that if you weren't hit then it isn't abuse. <BR>I have read that the only way to stop the cycle is to learn how to parent all over again. My parents were not abusive but I believe the dynamic between my H - D- and myself created a situation of vast confussion for my D. The tringle is an abusive tool that we didn't know we were in. <P>AH<BR>Your wife needs help by someone who knows and specializes in this relationship of abuse. She my parent just like her mother even though she clearly does not want to. It's like growing up in a French speeking country and then expecting that person to go to China and know the language, culture and custons.<BR> I have a dear friend who grew up in an alcohlic family. When she became a parent, she enroled in a parenting class at the junior college. She said that she continued that relationship with the class through out her girls younger years. These kids are awasome!!!!!!!!!<P>Please keep writting and remember that "you did not create the abuse in your wifes life and you may not be able to change it, only she can do that". What you can do is not to add to it. You have the book, read it. It will give you more insight.<P>------------------<BR>Marry

Hi everyone-<P>I have been reading this thread and it makes me feel even closer to you. When I saw that AD's W and GT's D were both adopted it just reminded me of yet anothr similarity. My husband had such an abusive childhood. His father died trajically when he was five. From that time on his mother had a string of live in boyfriends and husbands. She was an active alcholic. <P>My WH and his sisters were subjected to physical, sexual, and verbal abuse at the hands of these people. When my husband was either 11 or 12 his mother's fiancee gave her an ultimatum - My husband or him. She chose the fiancee. At this time my husband was bounced around a bit before being placed with a single man who eventually adopted him. This man who appeared to be a God send eventually started drugging and sexually abusing my husband. My husband finally moved out as a teen and moved in with his best friend. His friends mother was a God send and eventually adopted him, but his wounds run deep. <P>Both his family and I have urged him to get counseling, he has gone, but never stays. The result? He can't cope with his issues and drinks to get away. As a result our marriage floundered and I made so many disrespectful judgements which I am not proud of. I too tried shaming him, giving him things to read, tried forcing counseling, everything you can think of. <P>The result? He quit us. He began his affair with a 21 year old 13 months ago. He is 32. Why does he go to her? She accepts him and is non-judgemental plus she lives three hours away and this enables him time for his destructive habits without having to answer to anyone. I know he has many problems which need help, but I still love him dearly. If I only knew now what I knew then, but I am trying. Any suggestions?<P>By the way Marry-<P>He was supposed to pick up the three year old today while the older two were at school. He overslept again. He said he had to work until 3 am instead of 11, but I think he really went out. Anyway, I remained calm and he not only apologized, but said thanks for being so understanding. I think this is progress. He went and bought a new alarm clock too, but I don't think this is the problem.<P>Take care everyone,<BR>K

K<BR>I having been thinking about this since my last post. I just got home and decided to see if you would join us on this thread, YOU were already here! Thanks so much!<P>You are right, this is a process, both for you AND your husband. The same is true for my D and I and for AD and his wife. There are no quick fixes. But, what we CAN do is to be educated and enlightened on the subject. I keep reminding myself that "I can ONLY change ME". <P>Please know that writing helps me to formulate my own thoughts so if I sound like I'm trying to tell you all what to do, that is not my intent.<P>K, when we show compassion and understanding I do think that it frees them up to think about what they are doing. He may not get that alarm, but he is thinking about it. If we blast them, then they feel free to direct their anger towards us (or the dog or door....). I've heard this called projection? right? I think anyway.<P>AD,<BR>My D was adopted as an infant. From the begining we would say to her, "we love you, we are so happy we adopted you". When she was old enough to ask "what is adopted?" We told her the "how we got you--story". On her birthday we would say a prayer for her berth parents. We would ask God to comfort them and reasure them that by providing adoption, they had done the loving thing. When she graduated from HS, we helped her find her birth parents. We had always told her that if she wanted to do this, we would be there with her, holding her hand along the way. She wrote a letter to them thanking them for providing adoption for her and she wanted to reasure them that she had had a good life with loving parents.<BR>I know this paints a rosey picture, but as with all aspects of life things weren't always like this. The truth is that she DID spend a better part of a year of her therpy dealing with her HATE for me. I had not been kind about the A with MM. I had shamed her. While this wasn't the first time that I had shamed her, it was the straw. She now had someone who would tell her how wonderful she is and she could tell him what a witch her mother is. I just GAVE them a REASON to be together, free of charge.<BR>I didn't understand that I had shamed her and what that meant untill Ala-non. At a meeting, a girl talked about shame and what it did to her life. she painted a picture that made me realize that I had done this to my D. <BR>As I have said before, I want to "not" be a part of the problem. I have had several chances to tell her how sorry I am, with NO excuses. One of these times was at a counselors office here (not her's). We are making progess, it's slow.<P>I hope that both of you will continue to write.<P>K, I love to hear how you are handling this with your husband. It makes me more confident that my efforts will pay off too. I know that his is the "right approach" and that it DOES get the desired result, little by little, step by step.<BR>He knows you love him, he just doesn't love himself.<BR>A thought, next time he DOES pick his child up ON TIME, Thank him profussly and sinserely. Tell him how much that meant to you and how good it makes you feel when you can depend on him. I gonig to try this with my D. I'll tell you how it goes. I might see her this week.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Marry

Marry,<P>Thanks again for posting. Since your D was adopted as an infant, she would have no memories of her birth family - and probably less problems from that. Still, she might have felt some insecurity in the family. Growing up can be tough for anyone.<P>I think for my wife, I was maybe the first person who listened to her and took her seriously and believed in here. She did have a boyfriend before me, but when she was quite young - 15 to 17 - and it was not serious for her. I don't really know how he related to her, but she had few friends - was kind of a loner and had these huge problems with her parents. Also, she is an immegrant - was here going to college and spending the summer with some folks in a rather oppressive atmosphere - since the lady she was staying with had a serious, degenerative chronic illness and was a very depressing person to be around. So, W met me and had occation to spend 6-8 hours a week with me - and was lonely, far from home, never had many friends, nobody took her seriously - and I listened to her, affirmed her, believed in her. So, she fell in love with me - even though I am much older than she is. Maybe something similar happened to your D. Unfortunately, W found another guy who would listen to her, say she is wonderful etc. etc - though over email and telephone - and well... I lost out.<P>Does your D have any close friends?<BR>Did she have other boyfriends?<P>Oh - and a "Big Hello" to "Nina too" and "still reeling". Thanks for your comments as well. BTW. Jacky (N2) how many kids do you have? Sorry for forgetting - but the way you said "all my pregnancies", made it sound like more than 3.<P>-AD

AD<BR>You may have missed one of my posts to you as Still Reeling and I have been talking back and forth here. Just check. Anyway, my daughter is both beautiful and charming. This is both good and bad. Beautiful people get away with things that they should not get away with. It is not good for ones character to get away with so much. She has had many boyfriends. Actually, her college boyfriend broke-up with her right after coming home from college. So she not only did not graduate when she thought she had (she flunked one class so did not graduate) but her boyfriend broke up with her. She was at a low point in her life and vulnerable when she met MM. However, she met MM on line and knew he was married when she first had coffee with him. When I fond out that she knew he was married I said, "that says a lot about you, you knew and went anyway". I think that she had maybe flirted with the MM idea before. I have never put this thought to print or said it out loud before. It's hard for me to acknolage the fact that she doesnot have respect for marriage. This is where the tringle comes in. Because her dad and I created this in our lives at home, she now is recreating this in her personal life. There has to be someone to compete with.<P>Your wife has other problems. Hers are deep and I don't know how you can help her. How old are your kids? Is there any contact between you? Still reeling gave an example of a perfect Plan A, both in her post here and even more detailed at the end of a thread she started. I think the thread is called "the right thing" , read the second page. Where she talkes about how she would have responded and how she is now responding. It's a great example of how Plan a works and may give you some thought if you still have contact with your wife.<BR>Keep writing.<P>------------------<BR>Marry

Marry,<P>Thanks for your post - and more info on your daughter. I guess there is not much similarity between her and my W - only the adoption and age and some kind of judgemental (sorry, but you said it) relationship with parents.<P>In answer to your question, we have one daughter - 10 months old.<P>Full Plan A has been very difficult for me. I don't LB much, but I'm not doing the things that she has told me she wants. I tried so hard for so long to please her - then I suppose something snapped - and I quit trying. I don't find any motivation to do much of anything. I want to do these things - but just can't get up whatever it takes. I'm surprised at myself actually - because I thought I could do it. I try to "be there" for her as often as she will let me. We had a period of improved relations starting about a month after she moved out - but we have gone downhill in the last 6 weeks or so - since she started calling OM a lot and I found out that she opened a P.O. Box just to recieve mail from him.<P>She is waffling - only because she is afraid to be out on her own. She never really was on her own - since we married when she was 19, and she hasn't finished college and has never worked. She is afraid that she will be poor all her life - or be in the situation where she has to find somebody quickly and get married again for financial reasons - and end up in another marriage she doesn't want. She's afraid that she will be unable to finish her education. She doesn't want to have to put our daughter in day-care. She is an immegrant - and realizes that if she is divorced it will delay her attainment of citizenship by 2 years. Citizenship is an important goal of hers. She is lonely and sometimes afraid to be alone. She was born in Afghanistan (but a Ukrainian citizen), and although nobody has bothered her - or seemingly taken notice of her - since she dresses normally in jeans and stuff, she is understandably concerned about random idiots who might look at her with unfriendly eyes. Just the other day, a man was staring at her. She was holding the baby and I was with her - but she felt very uncomfortable about this man. She's afraid that she won't be able to see her parents again because she doesn't want to go there with our daughter - and can't afford to bring her parents over for a visit.<P>So, with all of that, staying married to me is safer for her - but she says that she wants a younger husband - and one whom her parents don't like. (She doesnt' say it that way - but the point is that she feels that her Mom "made her" marry me - because her Mom wanted an American son-in-law to brag about to her friends back home.) Lots of issues.<P>Thanks again for your input.<P>-AD

AD<BR>The story you tell of your wife is heart wrenching. I saw a biography of Steve McQueen tonight and thought of you. He was abandoned by both parents and spent many years in a boys home. The rest of his life he sought his mothers approval and trying to prove himself as a man. Of corse thats not what we saw on the movie screen but that was his reality. He was married three times. Wife #1 was a long marriage with many infidelitys. Substance abuse and a difunctional background made his marriages impossible.<BR> <BR>I know this is such a hard time for you and you are hurting<BR>terribly. Sometimes though, the competition isn't the OP but the background of abuse. <P><P>------------------<BR>Marry

Here's a BIG HELLO, to you, too AD !<P>I have three kids, but I also had a miscarriage (early one).<P>I'm a teacher, so I thought parenting would be easy - NOT!!!<P>It's entirely different having your own.<P><BR>