Chris,<P>I agree with most of what you say, but I believe the timing is not right. I do not believe Confused will be able to start dealing with the problems in the relationship until both people in the relationship are committed to the relationship and to working it out. At this point Confused may be there but his STBX is not. Therefore I believe he needs to concentrate on things within himself that he can improve and things about his own behavior he can improve. Prying out information or starting a conflict at this point might work, it does for a lot of people, but it might not. I think reading Dr. Harley's letters on dealing with a cheating spouse would be very useful at this point.<P>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5033a_qa.html<BR>

thanks for your posts. I had a counseling session with Steve Harley and we came up with a game plan that I must stick to. I am goig to have to not confide in some of my family because all they say is throw her out, I don`t need to hear that. I will need to vent on this board more often now. Why did she decide to tell me this? I have so many questions on my mind right now. She went away, out of stste to visit her sister today for a few days to think. She said she may answer my questions after she gets back and has had time to think. All I wanted to know is is she still seeing this other man. She gets very angry and doesn`t want to talk about it. She went to a friends last night for a few hours. I can`t help but think she stopped and seen the OM. The passanger seat was pushed back farther than usual and the dome light was turned off when you open the door. I noticedwhen I helped take her luggage out this morning. I know I shouldn`t obsess about htis but I can`t help it. I really need to know if she is still seeing this person but I can`t push for answers any more. I am so filed with anger and frustration I need to let it out somehow.Chris , I have read divorcebusting and am going to get the book by Dr Harley.<p>[This message has been edited by confused58 (edited July 20, 1999).]

Do you have a close friend you can talk to? I did and it was enormously helpful.

yes but he doesn`t understand the marriagebuilders theory. I may be better off keeping most of my details to myself. I really don`t want to hear people pushing me to throw her out and things on that order.

I thought she was leaving on her own? Has she backed down on this? I wouldn't throw her out either. Maybe if you had evidence of an ongoing affair it might come to that, but I don't see any reason to add fuel to the fire at this point.

she still says she is leaving on her own. She still doesn`t have a plan or the finances to do anything yet. She says she needs to save her money to put on an apartment. I don`t have evidence of an on going affair only that she had one. She won`t answer the quistion of if it is still goung on. Only gets very angry and upset and says she doesn`t want to talk about it. She went out of town to her sisters for the next few days and says she needs time to think. (like I don`t) Says she may answer my questions when she gets back.

I think you should keep with your original plan and just treat her well and give her space. If you can avoid conflict, maybe over time she will start to open up or feel less threatened. Right now a lot of her actions and feelings are being driven by an overwhelming sense of guilt or self justification. Anything that will compound those feelings for her will drive her away. If she begins to feel comfortable and safe there, she may not be in such a rush to leave. That may by you the time you need. Don't pull her teeth for information. Let her talk at her own speed.<p>[This message has been edited by nonplused (edited July 22, 1999).]

Let me ask a question. On Sunday we had some of the best conversation that we have had in months for a few hours. Why did she hit me with the affair story? Matbe it was because she had a few drinks in her, but why tell me then. Also why tell me and not answer the question of is it still going on? Why clam up then and get upset and say she doesn`t want to talk about it? I didn`t even bring us up in any conversation. I did try to get the same answers the next day but after the same results I stopped.

Wife comes home from sisters today where she went to think. I wonder if she will even talk to me this weekend about what she thought about? I think it will be best if I don`t ask her any thing, to wait until she wants to bring it up. She will probabally work all weekend to avoid being with me. Have to wait and see.

I response to the first post, my guess as to why she stopped filling in details is fear. She may have told you about it on Sunday because you had a good conversation and she felt comfortable. Therefore the guilt may have overcome the fear. Once she told you, either because she saw how it hurt you or because that was just as far as she felt comfortable going, she stopped talking. I think that pattern is fairly typical and may continue. I know guys are prone once they start talking to just get the whole thing out in the open. Women tend I think more to need to feel safe and accepted before they will say something, especially if it is personally compromising. I think the best thing to do is be as accepting and supportive as possible.<P>Why won't she answer you about whether or not the affair is still going on? There are only two possibilities. Either it is ongoing and she doesn't want to say, or it's not ongoing but she doesn't want to say. The worst case scenario is that it is ongoing. If this is the case, trying to force her to stop or kicking her out is just going to make her angry or rebellious. I think fighting with love is the only thing that could work. Show her and tell her how much you care for her, and sooner or later she will make her own decision. According to Dr. Harley, if after 6 months or so she still won't make a decision, then that is the time to consider "Plan B". As far as I understand it, Plan "B" is to isolate yourself from her and give the other guy a chance to win her over without you backstopping his shortcomings. Better read Dr. Harley's info on this, I've never been that far.<P>I agree with not asking her anything she doesn't want to say when she gets home. Try to make her feel safe and accepted.<BR>

I have a phone session with Steve Harley this afternoon, I may ask him the same question

It was a really terrible weekend. Sat. my w told us dhe had to work 12 noon to about 10. She came home well after midnight. Went to sleep on the couch. I checked in her pants pocket and found a reciept where she went to a motel in a nearby town around 12:30 and checked out at *. She spent the whole day in a room with OM and then must of went out with him. She wouldn`t have done that with me for years. The place was a dunp, If I would have taken her ther it would have been the end of the world. She told me she had an affair last weekend and I had thought had ment past tense. The hurt and pain was inncredible. I sleept maybe 2 hours that night. got up early, went to church, by myself and went for a drive to think. When i got home I talked to her about the motel and she wouldn`t answer any questions, told me I knew everything I needed to know. Said that had nothing to do with us.I tld her that she was right and I agreed it would be best if she left and lived elsewere. She left for the beach all day to think. When returning that evening, I asked if ther was anything we needed to talk about and she started on the finances again. That I needed to take care of them because as soon as she had enough money she was finding a place to live. That she needed to save all of her money and I would have to pay for everything. My problem is I am having a hard time her having an affair while we live in the same house and her knowing I know about it. It makes me sick to think about it.

I don't know what to say. This is a terrible situation and I can't imagine what to do. Except that clearly you need legal advice on the financial side. Her appraisal of the financial situation is as delusional as the rest of her ideas right now. Please hang in there and try to keep your head. The pain goes away. This I know because I have been through this sort of thing myself. It seems to take forever, but as you start to rebuild you feel it less and less. The important thing is to decide what is best to do, and start moving forward in that direction. As you rebuild your life, you will begin to feel better and better. It's way better than living with the sort of limbo you have been in until now.<P>You don't know how lucky you are in this case to have the kids and her moving out. If she agrees to that, you are much better off than most men end up. The worst thing might be if you decide the house is too much for your budget and you need to sell it and move in to something else. But in some ways that might be better, it could give you more of a fresh start.<P>Remember to try to be a gentleman. It's up to you whether you want to try Plan "A" or Plan "B", you will know best. Trust me it does get better. Today is probably as bad as it gets, in 3 to 6 months you will look around and see that it is getting better.<P>Make sure and stick with the counseling. It sure helped me get through things. Dr. Harley is a "marriage counselor", so he may be able to help you with doing things right in terms of relations with your STBX. But you might also think about some "personal" counseling. I don't know if Dr. Harley does that sort of thing or not. It helped me maintain my self esteem (or salvage some of it anyway), and also helped me sort myself out. In my situation SuperX was not interested in any sort of discussion about the relationship or anything, so I needed to work on my own just to keep my head. SuperX and I never talked anything out. It just got left at my being the worst person in the world (she was judge, jury, and executioner all in one, no second opinions allowed). That was the last we talked about it. Strangely, I have gotten to the point where I don't want to talk about it with her anymore. I actually dread the day she might try to. Anyway, that's my story.<P>Here is some humor; I hope you don't find it too inappropriate: "The best revenge you can take upon a man who steals you wife is to let him keep her." Ok, I'm sick, but I think it's funny. I can't remember who that quote belongs to.<BR>

That is pretty funny when you think about. I need any kind of humor right now. She refuses to talk about her affair. I won`t ask anymore questions. The day I confronted her about the motel, I asked her if she loved this person, she told me it had nothing to do with us and that she will not talk about anything about it.

I kind of got the same thing: "This is my personal business, it has nothing to do with you and I don't have to tell you anything! Our relationship is over because you were so awful! Yada yada yada." I suggest you don't ask if she doesn't want to talk. I decided to ask, and boy did I regret it afterwards. It turned in to a big blowout complete with all the personal attacks and character assassinations I couldn't handle.<P>People who are in the middle of an affair do not have the ability to recognize the fact that it is their own cognitive dissidence (over guilt, moral issues, the relationship ending, etc.) that causes the feeling they have towards their spouse. None of it is justified or accurate. So, rather than dragging it out of her and getting beat up (believe me, it feels like a beating), if I were to do it over I would ask no questions at all and just be a gentleman. Talk when she wants to talk about what she wants to talk about and that's it. It hard, I would say impossible, but do the best you can. I tried to talk and it caused my ex to say so many things, I don't think she could ever unsay them if she wanted to. Now the road back for her is impossible. Not only does she have to deal with what was going on, but she would have to eat all those words. That just isn't going to happen.<BR>

I think what really bothered me at first was that she is still living in our house and having an affair that I know about and not even feeling remorseful about it. I think when I agreed with her that it is time for her to leave thet was my way, inmy mind of letting go. I really don`t want her to leave but I know ther is nothing I can do to stop her. I did get my self respect back at that point. Now I don`t care who it is. I know one think, If she had to pay for the room and write a check for spending money for them that she didn`t have the funds to cover, he must be a real prize. I would never do that to a women. That shows how much he thinks of her. She`s going to have to realize that for herself. I did agree to help her out with her accopunt so she wouldn`t bounce any checks, but told her she need to make better financial decisions if she was going to save any money. I know I`m the better man, I`ll just continue working on my changes and she have to make up her own mind.

That sounds like a good plan to me. Looking after your own personality will lead to better things down the road for you and your kids no matter what path your wife follows. Hopefully one day she will see your example and start that process for herself. I wouldn't hold your breath though. From what I understand, that isn't going to happen until her relationship with OM ends on it's own. My counselor told me the best thing I could do is get on with my life. First off it's the only way to heal, and secondly it shows (and incidentally also builds) strength and independence. Once she comes back to reality, she will see you and think to herself "what on earth was I thinking?" Just try to sort yourself out and be the man you are, strong, caring, generous, forgiving, supportive, and a great father. If she is so screwed up that that doesn't appeal to her, someone else will take notice. Not saying that's what you want to happen, just trying to point out that a lot of things can happen, and not all of them are bad. Besides, even if you decide to stay single (which doesn't sound like a bad option at this point, does it?), your kids will notice. Your relationship with them will become stronger, and they will be better off because of it. In the end that's all that really matters, I think. <P>We can't take responsibility for the moral and intellectual development of our (ex) spouses. They have to do that on their own. But if we work on our own development, our kids will see that and that's what's really important.<P>Dr. Harley has some stuff on this site, and I've seen references to other work in the forum, that indicates at least 95% of adulterous relationships end and probably more like 100% but it's hard to track people accurately over long periods of time.<P>Don't expect any remorse in the short to medium term. Affairs make people crazy. Your wife, unfortunately, is a certified nut right now and it will be some time before she sorts herself out.<P>I think it's wise to be somewhat generous with the money while you are sorting out the separation agreement. But I suggest you move ahead with that. It's the only mechanism you will have to settle things fairly and wean her from your support.<P>If you ever meet the new guy, expect to be disappointed. My ex left me for a short order cook who makes $9/ hour working from 4pm until midnight. Considering she has a Master's degree, I don't see him able to meet her needs either emotionally or intellectually, certainly not financially, for very long. Also, since she is a teacher (works in the day), even if they were living together they would hardly ever see each other. It was a simple exit relationship, and he will end up on the street with me in no time at all.<BR>

Haven`t posted in a while, computer problems. Situation is still about the same. W affair has been exposed to me, but don`t know who with. She is still living in the house, but I think she is still having contact with him. We have been at a standstill and I don`t know what my next move will be. She still says she is leaving but I see no signs of it. We are going to have to have a talk about all of this shortly, but i need to have a game plan before I do. Meanwhile I`m trying to show hwe I care without pushing on her.

My suggestions:<P>- Be a gentleman at all times.<BR>- Give her space to make up her own mind.<BR>- Work on yourself and your own personal development.<BR>- See a lawyer and get to work. Do not serve her at this point. It's for backup only.<BR>- Go in to "Plan A"<P>"Plan A" as I understand it is:<BR>- Be really nice.<BR>- Tell her you love her.<BR>- Try to listen.<BR>- Try to talk about the things she wants to. (Not the affair).<BR>- Show her what a great husband you can be.<P>Hold this for as long as you can, but probably not more than 6 months. Then go to "Plan B":<BR>- Kick her out. ("I'm sorry, I love you, but I just can't take the pain anymore. If you decide you might want to give this another chance, let me know. But we have to live apart now.")<BR>- Get a separation agreement.<BR>- Don't speak to her anymore. (This gives the OM time to show his stuff without your support.)<P>This is mostly Dr. Harley's strategy as I understand it. It didn't work for me. I got to the middle of plan "A" when she asked me to move out. I was crowding her space and she was under the delusion I didn't know what was going on. I tried to move in to plan "B", but circumstances for me turned out differently than one would hope. I'm happily separated now and probably wouldn't even consider being friends with my ex. Turns out she is not my kind of person. But that's me.<BR>