Well, I didn't think he could do it. Poor eastern European student OM - who never had a job in his life - borrowed money from his brother, got a student visa to some tech school here in town - and showed up. I went to NYC for the weekend. W asked me not to go - but wouldn't say why. I didn't know he was in town. So, on only the 3rd time she has physically seen him in her life - W bedded him. I feel numb. She feels crazy and numb. I don't think he (OM) expected that either.<P>We both were virgins when we married - and apparently OM also had no expereience. She said "He didn't know how". Maybe I can get a little [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] out of that, at least.<P>I'm thinking of getting a job far from here and asking her to move with me. See if poor student can come up with the bucks to follow - and if he does follow and doesn't go to class - ByeBye student visa (I hope).<P>She confessed, I had prayed a lot - and God made me incredibly calm. I promised her that I would not kill him - or anybody else. I bought her a gift - just so that she would know that I still love her. That really hurt her. She knows that lots of women would give anything for a H as faithful as me - as committed to her as I am, who doesn't drink, stays home all the time, has, until recently be very nicely employed. She's afraid to live the rest of her life in poverty. She hasn't finished college, never worked. OM is the same.<P>I think that is a really key thing "OM is the same.". How can my relationship with my W become more equal? This is a vital question. I'm 20 years older, working (not now, but for 20 years), responsible. They are irresponsible (She said it), pessimistic, "crazy". W is intellegent, capable - if she wasn't crippled by her emotions. She doesn't have to live that way - failing over and over again in whatever she half-heartedly tries. I was just one of those half-hearted attempts. Just like all the classes she signed up for and dropped or just stopped going to.<P>Pray for us. We have a fantastic little baby girl. We CAN be a great family.<P>-AD<p>[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: AbandonedDad ]

AD-<P>I'm soory to hear that the EA has turned into a PA. Your W sounds a lot like my H. Totally confused and insecure, right down to the young lover. If only they could see how things can work if they'd deal with them I will keep you and your family in my prayers. Cherish your daughter. I have four beautiful children who continue to pray for Daddy to come home. I too know we can make it if given the chance. Keep us in your prayers as well.<P>K

(((((((((((((((((((AD)))))))))))))))))))<P>I am so sorry. I don't know what to say. This is so sad, and I know it is so painful for you right now.<P>Know that we are here for you and we care.<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky

K, Jacky,<P>Thanks for your support.<P>I think I'm still in shock. I'm trying to find a job in Hawaii - so I can talk my W into going with me - far away from this guy. I don't think he can come up with the money to follow.<P>The ideal job would be on Guam - or maybe Diego Garcia. Far away and expensive to fly there - but still USA. <P>I'm going into the REAL PLAN A now. Look out!<P>I NEED HELP - to discipline myself to do what needs to be done - to figure out the right approach to so many questions. Should I contact OM? Should I call his parents? (I know their number - but can't speak the langauge very well). They know about my W - that he came here to chase her. I mean, she was calling there all the time - and probably had pleasant chit-chat with his Mom and Dad. Yuck!<P>I know I've got to focus on making ME 100% the guy she wants. Focusing on OM is mostly a waste of time.<P>Q: Her lease runs out in just over a month. It is in my name. If I tell them in the next 4 days that we are moving out - I can force her to move back home. I can spend the next month getting the house in some kind of better shape. What do you think about that? It's not that I'd be forcing her - but that she has no other place to go - unless he comes up with an appartment - OMG! He's got no money except what his brother gives him and his brother has a British wife and lives in Shanghai China. I don't know why that matters. I'm just rambling on here.<P>-AD

Reposting this from another thread on EN.<P>OOOOOOOOOOOOO<BR>Man was I lonely. W's EA became PA just Saturday night - and I wanted so much to talk to somebody on here - anybody. Maybe I just wanted to say - "now I'm really one of you". I feel so weird. I'm willing to do ANYTHING to fix this (well, no killing, no ...) well, not anything - but a lot of things that otherwise might not make sence. If I could get a job on Guam and W would go with me, I would walk away from everything here (house and such) without even looking back - just go - that day - just to separate them.<P>It was a bad time for MB to be down, or was it a good time for it to be down. Maybe I need to get off of here and go be the best me that I can be - and if that's not good enough for her - then I'll at least know that I did my best - it wasn't my fault. <P>I keep thinking about the laundry. She hasn't brought over the laundry since I've been back. Maybe she did it on Sunday - the day after. Where are the sheets? It's the strangest things we think of. Where are the D*mned sheets - that I bought for her - for her apt - the nicest ones I could find - so that she would know that I love her - and now...<P>I bought the bed too - and carried it up the stairs by myself - the mattresses on my head - just so this hopeless loser could sleep with my W on them. Stinks.<P>And I signed the lease on her apt....<P>And ... everything - he rode in her car - that I bought her - carried my daughter - who was in the same room with them - sleeping sweetly - innocently in her crib.<P>AAAAAARGGGGGHHHHHH!<P>-AD

AD, if ever you need a friend to talk to, email me and I will set you up with IM.<P>jackinoz16@hotmail.com<P>Please feel free to do this...it does help!

Thanks Jackie,<P>What or who is "IM"?<P>Update:<BR>I figured out where OM is living - with some staff member of the tech college that he is attending. Probably they think they are doing a good thing - helping a poor student from the former Soviet Union have a chance to learn about computer networking.<P>I think I'll have a talk with them.<BR>What do you think?<BR>Maybe he can't afford a place to stay and these people volunteered to let him stay with them - kinda like a cultural exchange. My W didn't tell me who or where they are - just told me he was staying with a family. Wouldn't tell me where the man (of that family) worked. But I had already snooped, you see. Little scrap of paper in W's purse with directions to a house and two phone numbers. I called the one that said (W) and it was the college. I drove past the house. It's not very big and the houses on that street are close together with alot of cars parked on the street. It's in a subdivision - so people would notice if I was sitting in my car there to watch. I don't have to see him come out to know that he's there. I'm pretty sure now.<P>I don't want to do anything to him personally - just get these folks to revoke his I-20 (the paper a school issues to a foreign student) - or at least kick him out of the house. Didn't they wonder why a guy from Moldova would come to USA to attend a little tech college in a small city? Just out of the blue?<P>I asked W "if he's staying with a family. What did they think when you came and picked him up? Did you meet them?" "Yes", she replied "he just said I was a friend". Of course, she had the baby with her. Then, the next day they asked him why he didn't come home til way early (W says they left her apartment at about 1am and just drove around for awhile before dropping him off). I don't know what he told them. Probably they are already wondering what's going on. I mean, this guy shows up pleading how poor he is, but has enough money (it costs about $17,000 / year) for tuition - and then a young woman with a baby shows up "just a friend" and he doesn't get home until 2 or 3 or 4 or whenever AM. What are they going to think? He used to say he wanted to be a missionary - probably he's appealed to their christian charity.<P>By the way, classes started Monday. W says he is going to class.<P>Any advice?<P>-AD<p>[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: AbandonedDad ]

Hi AD,<P>IM is Instant Messenger...kind of private chat, although a whole bunch of us here had a chat party while the site was down. Do you have MSN Messenger service...if not, I can send it to you. But you have to write me your email addy first.<P>Sweetie, take a step back from yourself for a moment and know that a lot of what you want to do is out of anger, hurt, and a desire for revenge. And know, too, that nothing will change her mind on this, nothing at all. Be aware of that if you decide to go ahead with your plan.<P>I would suggest that if you do it, take along as much evidence as you can...phone bills would be a good start, so that you can prove it was all going on beforehand, and his move was a ploy to come here for your W, not study. Who knows whether they will listen?<P>Anyway, you didn't get a lot of sleep, and you really need to take care of yourself right now...strong bodies make good decisions. Please look after yourself.<P>love and light,<P>Jacky<P>(PS Did I sound like your mum, telling you what's good for you? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img])

Jackie,<P>Thanks for writing. Nephew uses IM constantly - annoying beep all the time. I just never got into that.<P>AbandonedDad@yahoo.com<P>But, I can find it myself anyway.<P>No, I didn't sleep. The night before, I got 6 hours, so I'm ok. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<P>My IM screen name will be AbandonedDad.<P>How do I get you in my buddy list?<P>-AD<p>[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: AbandonedDad ]

UPDATE : WOW!<P>Remember, OM just got into town to attend tech school. He's living with the family of one of the school's staff - Robert.<P>I just spent 5 hours with Robert - solid Christian man - been divorced himself - due to unfaithful wife. He knows what I'm feeling. It was great. Now OM lives in the house of the mole! I'll get a report as things proceed from that side.....<P>Robert will sit down with OM and say - "what's going on with this young lady you are seeing - who's married and has a baby?" He thinks OM will confess etc.<P>I feel so much better having done something - and having found a new friend in the most unlikely place. I would have been pleased to talk to him even if OM wasn't living in his home. He doesn't think he'll kick OM out [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] but something will happen - and OM will not know that his "host" is now my friend.<P>Also one thing. I actually enjoyed the evening - I haven't gone out with a friend in about 3 years! I've got to get reconnected with what few of my friends remain.<P>-AD

AM Update :<P>W called this morning. She had called several times last night while I was out. She said she was worried about me - that I might have gone away somewhere. I said, no, I just met a friend. Unfortunately, I let her get some info out of me. That was stupid, because I'm afraid she'll put it together when she talks to her OM. Probably she already talked to him. I told her, for example, what time I got home. OM might tell her that his host (Robert) came home about that time too - and was mysteriously gone about the same amount of time that I was. I told her I was talking to a friend who has gone through a divorce. She kept asking questions, but I didn't give much. I'm afraid that I gave too much already. She knows Robert's story - because OM told her about this guy Robert that OM is staying with - and about Robert's first marriage to a Japanese woman. Anyway, I feel stupid to let so much out. How can she do that - ask me all these questions - when just yesterday she was refusing to answer my questions - saying it was none of my business where she spent her time.<P>ARRRGGGHH!<P>Anyway, I'm going over to her place to watch "The Story of US". Have any of you seen that. It was recommended on another marriage site. W watched it when I brounght it to her on Tuesday and cried and cried. We'll watch it again (for her) together this afternoon - then go to a party together and pretend to be happily married.<P>-AD

AD, <P>First she would have to be super sleuth and OM too, to work it out, and anyway, you can deny it...ring Robert and tell him to hold off on that talk for a few days.<P>You are too nice...she can twist you too much...don't let her know anything about what you are doing...it is safer.<P>That she asked all about it means she is worried that you aren't solely thinking of her...well good! She needs a kick in the butt...be vague. If you go out to dinner with friends (and BTW get some more social stuff going) then just tell her you went out for dinner with a friend...if she asks who, say she wouldn't know them. Get her thinking!!!<P>Now as for super sleuthing yourself, go easy on that, cos you can be in trouble for that...just do what you have to do to show her how much of a good person you are.<P>I'm going to bed now.<P>Take care AD, thinking of you and sending lots of light and love,<P>Jacky

AD,<P>I think she was worried about you alright. She was worried you finally met someone other than her. She doesn't want you dating. She couldn't get a hold of you and it was driving her nuts thinking you may be with another woman. I think it's quite funny. I think she was asking you so many questions because she wanted to see if it were male or female.<P>Take care AD and good luck with your day with her,<P>ANNA

Thanks ladies for the comments. I had forgotten the power of unavailability. Yes, I need to be gone more often - out of reach sometimes.<P>Well, we watched the movie, ate lunch - but my appetite was gone - very strange for me. She's a good cook and I couldn't eat it. Anyway, she decided not to go to her friends (to celebrate one guy's PhD) tonight - so she started to say goodby - I got the hint.<P>About the sluething... I doubt if she talks to OM about me - so she wouldn't tell him that she tried to call me over and over again and couldn't reach me - and I was talking to a friend. I don't think she would tell him that. We'll see. Maybe it doesn't matter anyway.<P>-AD

AD, <BR>You mentioned on my thread that your W has some trauma from her background and ptsd. I couldn't help but notice that you do a lot of things for her the same way that I do for my H. So, you got her a lease, a bed, sheets, and helped her move in? PTSD severely compromises a person's ability to handle stress, and helpful people like us want to be accommodating. Have you considered being NOT helpful? I can tell you, it's a hard thing to do, but in all honesty I can see some results. <P>Before I realized the impact that ptsd would have on my life, I shouldered a lot of things that a normal person would take care of themselves. I'll take his fingernails as an example. I would file his nails every couple of weeks while we watch tv. After I returned from a one-month separation, I no longer offered to do his nails. They kept getting longer and longer. Four weeks went by. They got longer. Six weeks went by. They were longer than mine! It was killing me not to do his nails, they looked so terrible. I'm thinking OMG he can't even do his own nails. How did I ever get married to this man? Finally, he clipped them. Then another 4 weeks went by. Six weeks. I could hardly stand it. In counselling he complained about how controlling I am. I really don't think I am, and I was going to prove it by not doing his nails. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Ten months later, he's keeping his nails trimmed. Plus he's fixing dinners, cleaning up, going to the bank, AND grocery shopping (these were all things that I shouldered before). <P>You asked how can you make your relationship with your W more equal? The answer in my house has been for me to do less. In response, he is doing more. Going the bank stresses him out. Driving stresses him out. Shopping stresses him out. Deciding what to have for dinner stresses him out. In retrospect, I can see that it was a mistake for me to do things "for" him. It created an imbalanced relationship where most of the burdens fell on me. As it turned out, I wasn't doing either one of us any favors by "doing more." As I've been contemplating separation and divorce, I've been refusing to do so many things for him as a covert independence training. He was in a really good mood today. He was downright cheerful about making dinner. And dessert. My advice.... less gets more.<p>[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: lonesome heart ]

lonesome heart,<P>I agree that I need to often do less for W - but I don't know how to deal with that in the current situation. She is doing more for herself than even - since we have been separated for 5 months. She is not a confident driver - has a hard time driving somewhere she has never been before. But... she found the house where OM is staying when he showed up in town. It is a matter of incentive, I suppose. I noticed that she bought a map. She still doesn't know how to use it. I found a note in her purse with the directions that somebody gave her to house where OM is staying.<P>OM's "host", Robert, told me that one day W came there - and parked the car in the middle of an intersection - took the baby out and walked toward their house. She seemed a little shaken up - said she was driving behind a garbage truck and a bag fell off and she ran over it - and she was so shaken that when she got near that house - she just left the car in the middle of the street. Robert had to turn it around for her. Oridinarly, she would have called me to help her - but given that she was going to meet her boyfriend - she couldn't do that.<P>-AD

I find it interesting that both our spouses have the same aversion to driving. My H didn't drive at all for more than a decade. When he resumed, well, let's just say the world was a safer place when he didn't drive. LOL <P>Do you think your W is "reachable?" Has she received treatment for her ptsd? If you've answered this before, my apologies. I used to spend most of my forum time in e/n.

Lonesome Heart,<P>Yes, I think my wife is "reachable". She actually does pretty well - just has problems being a student. Exams and anything that has to be turned in on a schedule just drive her bezerk, but she is getting better. One day in her first semester after we married, she refused to get out of bed on a day when she had 3 exams - and flunked 3 courses as a result. But she's getting better - though she's been in college for 5 years and is about half way through.<P>Driving ... she has only been driving since we married - and has had a license for only a year and some months. She drove without a license for a year - because she flunked the test 3 times in a row. I think she will get better at it. She is only 22. I don't worry about her driving with the baby.<P>My W has been a psychology student - and I've read a little anyway. She falls about 1 symptom short of being PTSD (from my limited understanding of DSM-IV, and limited understanding of my W). A specific diagnosis is not that important, since there is really no effective treatment (as far as I know) - just some things you can do to try to cope.<P>I think it is different when you are born in a war vs. went to fight in one. They say that memories of committing attrocities cause more emotional trauma than being the victim. But on the other hand, at 5 years old, it is simply beyond comprehension that everybody you know has been shot. It shapes your whole world-view.<P>-AD

My marriage counsellor told me about a relatively new treatment called EMDR (eye movement something something) that is proving to be (more) successful than previous attempts at treating ptsd. Maybe your W will learn about it her studies. <P>Are you still thinking about finding employment in a distant place? How optimistic are you that it would solve your problems? I would be concerned that some of your problems would follow you (and I'm not referring to the OM!). I could be off base, but it kinda strikes me as a strongarm tactic, with a bit of parent/child role mixed in. <P>In the long run, would it not be better for her to have options and for her to exercise her own free will while making her choice? My understanding of Plan A is to become the best person you can be. The hopeful outcome is becoming more attractive on all levels than the OM. Ultimately, her choices are her own. I can't see how the removal of the OM from her life will remedy the hurt and betrayal that her affair has caused, nor do I see that it will reduce the risk of another affair with someone else in the new location. <P>I hope it all works out AD. I hope your W succeeds in her studies. After 9/11, I imagine mental health care will be in high demand for years to come.

Lonesome Heart,<P>Thanks for posting. I remember something about this eye movement thing. I'll have to look it up again.<P>To clarify.<P>I can't MAKE W move anywhere - but she has previously expressed an interested in living in NYC and might agree to move there with me if the opportunity arises. Also, who wouldn't want to live in Hawaii? I was looking at a job on Maui. In short, she would go with me only if she wanted to. <P>One of W's complaints against me is that I am boring or lacking in enthusiasm for life or vigor or something like that. Not exactly any of these but something like that. Picking up and moving to an interesting new place is something fun to do. We don't have to live there for the rest of our lives - just for a year or two. Doing such things pleases her.<P>I agree that our relationship has major problems which won't go away even if OM is out of the picture. Worse, I DO think that OM will follow if at all possible. Moving to an EXPENSIVE place has the advantage of pricing him out of the market. He's looking for a $300/month apartment now. Such things do exist here ('tho you don't want to live there), but not in NYC. You can maybe get a parking spot for $300/month in NYC.<P>I don't think she is likely to go after another OM in the short term - although I recognize that as a long-term danger. This OM is a guy she knew (by internet and phone) before we were married - for more than 3 years. She's not the type who picks up a guy every month.<P>NOW for NEWS --- UPDATE<P>W has been real nice to me for the last couple of days - even allowed me to rub her back today. (Wow! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]) Most importantly, W agreed without hesitation to give notice on her appartment and move out of there one month from today. I drove by the office and put the notice in the slot just an hour ago. This is great news. It does not mean that she will move back home - just that if I show substantial progress on the house in the next 3 weeks, she MIGHT move back home - otherwise will want another appartment - a little bigger (2BR) so the baby can have her own room.<P>So, the ball is in my court. She has agreed to compromise rather completely on the house - just replace all the flooring and mostly redo the kitchen. That is feasible in 30 days if you are willing to dump money on it.<P>This morning, W called about 9am and asked if there was anything she could do for me to help me with the things I need to do. I was amazed! I can't remember her ever making such an offer. I told her that the simple fact that she had offered already helped me a great deal. She called again later and repeated the offer. She didn't seem annoyed that I didn't ask for anything - which is also good.<P>Tonight she was here - cooked for us. As she was leaving, I thanked her for "being nice to me the last couple of days", and she said "I have a lot to make up for."<P>Still, she says she does not love me - and will move home (if she does) in pure duty mode. I'm not sure if that is OK. I think I deserve better than that - but it puts us back together where we can work on it.<P>On other news....<BR>Robert, the guy who's family OM lives with called today with a report. He gave OM the "dear brother, I think you are wandering from the Christian path" talk and OM denied that anything had happened and agreed that maybe he should not spend so much time with a married woman. Robert says he'll give him maybe another 2 weeks to come clean - and then might confront him with it - and maybe kick him out. Robert's wife is upset about it too - but is letting Robert handle it. They have two teenaged girls, and although he didn't say so, maybe they would worry about OM living with them. In any case, they don't want to "enable" him. I appreciate that very much. I don't know how OM will react - and if it will get back to W if/when he is confronted by his host. It may get dicey. OM has spent the last 3 years persuing my W from afar. Now that he is near, he is unlikely to be easily dislodged. So, unless they get sick of each other - or at least one of them gets sick of the other, I suspect that only the most forceful means - such as revoking his I-20 (the immegration document a school issues as the basis for a student visa application), will get him out of town. Robert said that W called yesterday afternoon and talked to OM for about 15 minutes. OM looked embarrased and upset afterwards. That was immediately before W came over to the house.<P>THIS IS WHAT I GET FOR GIVING UP. As soon as W realized that I'm ready to call it quits - she turns the corner (maybe). I expect more reversals before all is said and done - but still, right now, this is progress.<P>-AD<p>[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: AbandonedDad ]