Bad therapy session last night. Empty love bank is resulting in huge depression. Therapist is starting to say, "Live with H making you mommy all the time or get out."<P>Not much of a choice. I ended up stomping out and then having to go back with my tail between my legs.<P>Crying nonstop on the way home. H was cooking dinner when I got home, a love bank deposit.<P>Then H asks me how I'd feel if he invited [OW/"friend"] and another friend of his along with us on our Saturday day trip. <P>I was in no position to discuss this.<P>Tank is empty again.<P>Clearly it was important to him that she go, and I didn't get the sense that he really wanted to know how I felt. Besides, I was feeling too distraught to have the kind of rational discussion the subject requires. <P>So I said, "If you want. But I've told you a number of times how she treats me like something to be gotten rid of at the earliest possible opportunity, and I am concerned about being 'odd man out' in a [company they both used to work for] powwow."<P>He says, "Well, she speaks very highly of you."<P>SHE DOESN'T EVEN F***ING KNOW ME!! SHE HAS MADE ZERO, NO, NADA, ZILCH EFFORT TO KNOW ME!!!<P>So I look like the villian, right?<P>He thinks I'm concerned about THREE of them talking about work stuff, so he says, "X [male] probably won't be able to go anyway; his father's sick."<P>Oh.<P>So it's going to be me, H, and OW/"friend". Just freakin' lovely. Happy labor day weekend to me.<P>Why didn't I speak up then? you might ask. Two reasons: #1, I was having a hard time keeping my weepies under control anyway, and every time I've tried to discuss her with him and I've gotten weepy, he goes off into "YOu think I'm f***ing her, you don't trust me, blah blah", gets mad, and storms out, and nothing gets accomplished. Reason #2 is that the only issues I can discuss about her presence in his life are two months old already.<P>So I figured if I somehow manage to live through this on Saturday, and I have something fresh in my mind that I can enumerate, maybe we can have some discussion then.<P>The whole thing just threw me for a loop and I wasn't quite able to think on my feet.<P>As I told the therapist, I want her out of my life. Completely. I want her gone. I can deal with the neediness, the frantic "OMIGOD I'm going to get fired E-mails, the calming him down all the time, the insecurity about our financial situation -- as long as I don't have to compete with HER for my H's attention. That's the major lovebuster.<P>Yes, I'm having a pity party. I couldn't stop the water coming from my eyes all night. I've hardly slept. I'm so tired I can't think straight. H either doesn't have a clue or doesn't want to see. I'm trying to hide it from him the best I can.<P>I know I've handled it badly, that I should have spoken up last night, but I just didn't feel up to it.<P>Go ahead, shoot me down in flames.<P>

It's not too late to talk to your H and tell him that you would rather she not join you. You have to start looking out for yourself, don't let him walk all over you. You can do this, you are alot stronger than you think. Keep your chin up.<P>------------------<BR>You are in my thoughts and prayers.<BR>* Viki

The one compelling reason to just grit my teeth and get through it is that it'll give me REAL, CURRENT things I can bring up to him as to why this "friendship" is not acceptable to me.<P>I fully expect the day to be full of in-jokes, conversation about employers both past and present (she knows his current company; she got him the interview there) and I will be odd man out. But I figure, when this volcano explodes, isn't it better to have more recent ammo than something that happened in June?

Dazed, the one thing I see that you have going for you in this situation is that he is not being secretive about wanting a relationship of some kind with this woman. But the fact that he wants to, when he knows how you feel is at the very least, disrespectful to you. My H resumed his affair this summer and I saw that same disrespect in him. The things he told me he was doing didn't make sense if he was trying to make our marriage work--which is what he said he was doing. Your H wants both you & this woman. That isn't possible. Unfortunately, your options in making him give her up are limited.<P>Going out with the 2 of them sounds hideous. I can't imagine doing that. My H wouldn't even let me to the county fair the same day the OW was likely to be there, so my H & situation is much different.

Dazed<BR>If you have to do this then use it to your advantage. Make yourself absolutely irresistable. Take control of the evening and have the most fun of your life. Be extremely affectionate to H and make sure the "friend" knows that she isn't worth worrying about. Show it off.<BR>A friend of mine had a similar situation with H's secretary. Occasionally she had to go to functions with both of them. She dresses to kill. And FAWNS all over her H. He loves it and it really ticks off the "friendly" secretary. It's pretty much over now since her H got the secretary transferred when my friend got enough proof that she was after the H.<p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited September 02, 1999).]

DAC,<P>Shoot you down in flames? I think not. <P>What in the heck is wrong with your H? This reminds me of a T-shirt I saw. It had a woman thinking "If they can send a man to the moon, why can't they send them all of them there?" No wonder that shirt is popular. <P>He wants to go out with you and OW? I'm sure!! <P>If you have to do this, try and control the conversation. Interview this OW if you have to. Make your H feel like the odd man out. <P>I simply can not understand men who do not appreciate their wives. I guess I used to be like that and I can clearly see how much it hurt my wife. <P>Do your best. You are a very witty and intelligent lady. Make sure the OW knows that she can't compete with you.<P>SHA

I have decided that I simply cannot deal with this without becoming emotional. I am fighting off weepies all day. He already knows there's something wrong, but doesn't want to ask. I have written this letter that I want to give him. Please comment quickly, as I want to delete it today.<P>Keep in mind that he does not know, nor does he want to know, about MB principles. Keep in mind also that he is a conflict avoider, as am I.<P>Thanks.<P>------------------------<BR>[Letter deleted for privacy]<p>[This message has been edited by Dazed and Confused (edited September 02, 1999).]

D&C,<BR> Your H knows how you feel about this woman and still insists on having her in his life.<P> Well, I finally told my H that he can either continue his friendship or he can have me as his wife, but he can't have both.<BR>My H also swears that there has been nothing between them other than a casual friendship. I told him the other day that whether or not he f***ed her was not the point of my being so upset at his going to her business without me. The point was that I was/am uncomfortable about the interaction between them and he showed a tremendous lack of respect for me by going there. He then said, "Well, I wasn't even thinking about my not wanting him around her. I just went to have some lunch before I went back to work." I told him that the fact that he wasn't even thinking about my feelings showed showed how little importance he gave to my feelings.<P> Anyway, he has agreed to never go there again, to never see her and to never talk to her again. I hope he can honor his agreement.<P> And, of COURSE she speaks highly of you!! That makes YOU look like the wicked witch of the East if you say anything derogatory about her!<P> I don't know what to advise you. It took me a year before I was able to basically tell my H to either s*** or get off the pot.<P> So, if you go on this trip with your H and his "friend" (I sure as heck wouldn't let 'em go alone!), why not address the situation head-on. If you feel that any behavior is inappropriate, don't give your H a hard time about it later and don't hold it in and let it build up steam. Address it right then with HER. <P> And, I don't think I would like being my H's "mommy," either. Your H really does need to grow up!<P> Another thing that I suspect about my own H. While my H did start acting a little more loving and affectionate toward me over the past year, the hateful behavior and withdrawing from me was continued to some extent. I think the reason was this: I changed and tried to become more loving and meet my H's needs as much as I could because I believed that I had lost much of my H's love for me. I think that my H unconsciously figured that this was great, but that if he ever turned totally into an affectionate, loving and considerate H, I would then stop my efforts. In other words, he would withhold his love from me so that I would continue doing wonderful things for him.<P> Make sense?<P>Your H really needs some therapy of his own instead of having his wife be his "mommy."<BR>

Excellent letter Dazed. Seize the moment. No regrets. <P>If your H is half the man he should be, he will honor your request to get this OW out of your lives. After my W's affair, one of her comments to me was "if you feel uncomfortable with any friendship that I have, tell me and I will end it." That was one of the sweetest things she has ever said to me. I hope you hear those same words too.<P>SHA

Here's my 2 cents....I told my H that the OW/"friend" was out of our life. NO contact, PERIOD. He thought eventually we could resume where we left off before discovery (minus the affair). That being spending time fishing, playing cards, going to movies, etc. I stated in no uncertain terms, that ain't gonna happen! I want absolutely no contact with her and the same goes for him or I am outta here.

Dazed,<P>First, I like the letter.<P>There are so many great points made here. If you feel you should go & she should be there.... then go. But, do "Dress to Kill", and do address the behavior right then & there.... with both of them. <P>Good luck! <BR>B<BR>PS ~ The only way I would have shot you down in flames is if you WERE the D&C from TOW <P>------------------<BR>My favorite quote....<BR>"Hello, this is God. I will be handeling your problems today. I will not need your help, so sit back and have a good day."<BR>

He has to work late tonight and won't be home till about 7:30 or 8. I thought I might leave this note on his chair (maybe with a flower?) and take in a movie that lets out around 8:45. That would give him time to read the letter and chew on it before I get home.<P>What do y'all think? Good idea? Bad idea?

I think it's a good idea, but thats just me, my advice stinks right now.<BR>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{dazed}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

Good idea with a flower.

Dazed,<P>One of the things I had to learn was that it was ok to not endure unpleasant things if I didn't want to. I could opt out if I wanted to. I was loyal to the maximum and would endure things that I really didn't want to endure. So my advice, is opt out and do something you might enjoy. Have a really good day and let him miss your presence instead of him expecting you to condone what he is doing.<P>Love yourself Dazed... love yourself enough to say no to the abuse...<P>Blessings!<BR>Ramy

Wow, I just had a selfish thought. I just thought - gee, if her husband didn't have this bimbo predator hanging around, she wouldn't be on this board. Then what.... I would absolutely miss her spicy comments.<P>Sorry, had to admit my selfishness. <P>I have an idea!<P>Okay, tell hubby that if he doesn't mind, you would like to bring a friend with you. And then I could come, get away from my husband for the day. And, I could put the moves on hubby IN FRONT OF THE PREDATOR and really give her something to be angry about. <P>Dumb idea? yup.<P>Do not get angry and not go. That is # 1 big time huge MONDO mistake. Make sure you go, and take notes and a video camera. <BR>

Clueless. Utterly clueless.<P>Well, I did it...I left the note, some tiny roses, and went to the movies.<P>When I got home, he hugged me but said nothing, except "Do you want me to quit my job?"<P>Of course I don't. But he says that's the only way he can NOT have contact with this person. <P>I told him it's not about what HE'S doing, it's about what SHE'S doing. He says she's like that with everyone; that she has a boyfriend and was away with him last weekend. My answer: "How the hell am I supposed to know that?" All I know is what I see, and what I said in that letter was what I see.<P>He said AGAIN, "I thought we were done with this. I thought we were done with this months ago. I am not sleeping with OW, I have never slept with OW, I am not going to sleep with OW.<P>Turns out he also had a call that his dad was very sick, so he was freaked about that. He told me he was very angry at me (he wasn't when I walked in the door) and left the room to have a cigarette. I went downstairs to try to calm down. Then he comes down and fusses at me for stomping out. I can't possibly win.<P>He tells me the reason he invited her to go with us on Saturday was so we could get to know each other so I wouldn't see her as a threat anymore.<P>I told you he was clueless.<P>I mentioned the flirting, and he says she's like that with everyone: "Didn't you see him flirting with BB at ZZ's party?" Uh...yeah...but BB is SINGLE. He doesn't seem to think there's a difference.<P>We ended up not going, because we went to where his dad lives and spent the weekend there. But the bottom line is that I am married to a narcissist who utterly refuses to see my POV on anything. Or if he does see my POV, he has no intentions of doing anything about it.<P>We have been fine over the weekend, but I still see this as hanging over my head. I guess I just have to learn to live with it, because he's clearly unwilling to make any changes to put my mind at rest. He just doesn't get it.

Comment from self absorbed TNT... Clueless, utterly clueless.... Geez, I thought you were talking about me <P>Does your hubby need to take communication classes? Seems like it could be a solution to his problems at home and with difficult bosses....<P>???

You're a funny lady. My H, admit he has communication problems and that some classes or therapy might help? Will never happen. I wouldn't dare even bring it up.<P>Friday we rushed down to see his father in the hospital. We were told by H's brother that he'd been rushed to the hospital in an ambulance with a massive infection that might require amputation. (This short-circuited the discussion about the letter, BTW.) When we got there, he's ok, on IV antibiotics, friend drove him to the hopsital, expected to be there 5-7 days. That's it. <P>He didn't even ask the nurses what the "straight poop" about the old man's condition is. Now...if you'd gotten conflicting reports like that, wouldn't you want to know?<P>That's the kind of guy I deal with.<P>Yesterday I was freaking out a bit -- I was ripping up old bills and found a bunch of phone bills from 1995 (!) with many, many calls to her town. She hadn't even started working with him in 1995. My mind started racing about parenthood of her kid, etc., etc. Then I got smart, looked up her phone number, and realized that while the 1998-99 calls ARE to her, the 1995 calls are to another number (probably our online service at the time). =Whew!=<P>Bottom line, though, is that he still refuses to acknowledge any legitimacy to my concerns. No "I love you and don't want anyone else", none of the things I'd like to hear (even though I know such words can be crap too).<P>I wonder if one reason I'm so fixated on her (and my therapist seems to think so) is that I'm the one who's unhappy with him and so I'm projecting my unhappiness onto him and inventing something that isn't there.<P>My problem is not that he's changed, but that I'm creating all these wonderful, sensitive, loving men in my fiction writing -- men that no real man can live up to, and wishing he was like the guys I create. He's so much better than the guys I work with in terms of affection and that sort of thing. They ignore anniversaries and Valentine's Day, my H always gets me roses (except last year when we both forgot -- a major wake-up call). He doesn't treat me like "the old ball and chain" or anything like that.<P>But it's his complete inability to put himself in my shoes, to empathize, to admit that any conduct of his could cause a problem and need to be changed that makes me nuts. I'm probably just being unrealistic, but I can't seem to get past this.<P>Now he tells me that he likes my hair as it is now -- when all the perm is out of it...and I have an appointment for a new perm on Thursday. I perm my hair because left to its own devices, it's frizzy in the humidity and limp when the air is dry. A perm equalizes it and makes it "wash and go" -- very important to me. <P>This is where that darned "attractive spouse" thing is making me nuts. My H isn't hung up on looks -- he never has been. His favorite outfit of mine is a heather grey T-shirt I got at a computer show. He said explicitly that I shouldn't change my hair for him. But under that d*mned "Harley Rule", I should do whatever's necessary, including plastic surgery, to be an "attractive spouse" according to some arbitrary societal standard.<P>Ease of care is important to me; I don't want to be a slave to a blow dryer and curling iron again...and yet, I've never once found a hairstyle that works for me until this one. I think I'm going to ask my hairdresser if there's anything we can do that's a little "softer" but holds up well and is easy care, but I can't just leave it straight, because I'm pretty much a slave to the weather at that point. <P>I've tried to have a reasonable discussion about the "attractive spouse" thing on the emotional needs board, but all I've gotten over there is that women have an obligation to try to look as close to models as possible, that this is just how men are.<P>I know I'm obsessing about this, and he's not doing anything differently, but I'm just not sure how to proceed. I still feel as if she's a sword of Damocles over my head, and I know I'm the one who's putting her there.

No escape. Looks like we're invited to a party Saturday and I'm sure she'll be there. A pool party. That means bathing suits. Wonderful. Just what I need, to be around that skinny-a**ed b*tch in a bikini, with me in my one-piece. Wonder if I can still get an underwire swimsuit this late in the year, which at least would show off my good points (both of them, har har)?