I have posted this on the GQ board and will also post on the other boards.<P>As a mom to single OW, I want to know if there any similarities going on here. There must be a profile that can be put together about them.<P>I'll start:<P>1.age---23 when started<P>2. education--one college class left when started, now finished.<P>3.birth order--2nd child<P>4.parents--married 30yrs<P>5.how met---on line, chat room I think<P>6.did they know this was a married person--yes [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] this says mare than I can stand<P>7.anything about the time in ones life--this was a really bad time in her life, hadn't finished school, boyfriend broke up with her.<P>8 work--retail at the time, now a great carrer.<P>9.abuse, of any kind, in background<P><BR>10. have you had contact with OP---she said that she talked to wife on line and in E-mail<P>Thanks<BR>11 anything else that may give somelight on this person

Hi Marry -<P>Although you already know most of this I'll get this started for you<P>1. age 20 when started, 21 now<P>2. education - college junior<P>3. oldest child<P>4. parents married, I'm not sure how long, but at least 21 years<P>5. met at work, she was home from college for summer and was luck would have it ended up on his shift<P>6. yes she knew he was married and had 3 kids at the time, now he has 4<P>7. had just broken up with her first serious boyfriend<P>8. works somewhere part time while in school<P>9. no known abuse<P>10. I have talked to her on the phone<P>11. She is very plain (almost homely), inexperienced in love, and although most who knew her in high school said she was very quiet and nerdy, they now say she is very outspoken and overly sure of herself (I wonder if having a man leave his wife and 4 children has anything to do about this!) My kids have met her. They all say she is nice, but doesn't talk very much. My oldest added that she is skinny but ugly with bumps all over her face! Great, I've been left for a toad!

Just to get this straight, I am answering these Qs about the OW right? If so, here goes.....<P>1.age--- 23 (now 24)<P>2. education--one semester of community college, plus computer certification courses to get her MCSC (or whatever it is called)<P>3.birth order--only child<P>4.parents--marriage 15 years, mother left her father when she was 12 and never looked back...he tried to make amends and work things out, she ignored him (just like my H is doing now)<P>5.how met---She was my oldest childhood friend and matron of honor in my wedding. We were close families (her father and my parents) so all holidays and birthdays were spent together)<P>6.did they know this was a married person--YES, both were married and both knew it very very well.<P>7.anything about the time in ones life--she hadn't concluded her divorce, but was basically a single mom (her choice on the custody), with a new house and was feeling quite lonely. hadn't dated in about 3 or 4 months (long time for her)<P>8 work--help desk at an international organization in DC<P>9.abuse, of any kind, in background-- she would say her dad was emotionally abusive. He does have anger issues, but more so because she was the teenager from Hell!!!<P>10. have you had contact with OP---Yes, even while the EA had started and I wasn't aware yet. And afterward I asked her multiple times to step away as a friend and for my family who had done sooo much to her. She didn't care....just thought about herself.<P>11 anything else that may give somelight on this person -- she likes to be needed. Had her first child at 18 and told us that she was happy to have a baby because then someone would always need her and love her. My H is very depnedent, and instead of going off on his own like he had said he wanted to, he has gone directly to her, and is dependent on her now...she likes that. PLUS, my family has disowned her and her father is very upset with her (it appears -- I don't see him much) so if my H leaves, she basically has no one now. She knows that draws him to stay with her because he feels guilty about the whole situation, blames himself 100% (regardless of the fact that she was one of my closest frinends, he tells me it was none of her fault).

Thanks for the replies so far. I thought I'd check in to see how this was going.<P>K, so she is a first child, boy does that shoot THAT theory. She had just broken up with her first serious boyfriend--rebound!<BR>I won't be here tomorrow so could you bump this up if it gets too far down? Thanks<P>Bjoanne, About the same age as my daughter. Wow, what a mess with the families etc. so much for loyality. Don't you think that this generation isn't that shocked about all this affair stuff. If it weren't accepted---?<P>Thanks, I do hope to have some kind of report on all of this.

Marry,<P>Boy, you don't know what you're in for! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <P>My ex's girlfriend is unlike the others...COMPLETELY!! LOL<P>1. 40 (But this wasn't her first time with a married man)<P>2. High school grad.<BR> <BR>3. Not sure<P>4. Not sure<P>5. In a bar. He was a regular customer and she was the bartender.<P>6. Yes, she knew he was married.<P>7. Not sure<P>8. Bartender and janitor!<P>9. I have heard that her 1st husband abused her and cheated on her.<P>10. Yes, she called and said some not so nice things about me and my children a week or so after my ex moved out.<P>11. Hmmmm...has a history of dating married men or more than one man at a time. Is a heavy drinker and drug user. A man she was dating before my ex, shot a man that she was cheating with. (He didn't die). Is about 10 yrs older than my ex. <P>Not many similarities!<P>Mitzi [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Well, you all seem to know so much more about the OW than I do.<P>1. I think she's around 34-35 now.<BR>2. Must have a college education.<BR>3. No idea of her family.<BR>4. No idea of her parent status, other than her X told me they would be incredibly angry at her, so maybe they've been married a long time.<BR>5. They were co-workers when my XH moved to another state a couple months ahead of us.<BR>6. YES! She knew he was married and "felt so bad about it" - puke. I'm sure.<BR>7. She divorced her own H for mine. Her XH told me the reason she gave him was because "he wouldn't talk to her". Lame. Well, she doesn't know it, but now she's got the king of not talking.<BR>8. Career girl making big bucks - which is the big attraction to my XH since he now has turned into this guy where the most important thing in his life is fun and his money.<BR>9. Have no idea about abuse - I don't think so in her family. Her X told me she has a really close family.<BR>10. I have not talked to her, I've never seen her and neither have my children, thank God. I believe she has dark medium thick hair because that's what I keep finding in my closet (this is a new house and nobody else's hair should be other than mine).<BR>11. This person is a mystery and no one has met her even from his side of the family. I believe they are now married and expecting. He keeps her a secret tho, maybe he's ashamed of himself, maybe he's protecting her, I don't know. My son said she's fat because he saw her bathing suit in dad's closet (hence, I think they are expecting but don't know for sure).<P>I can't wait for the day she gets back what she dished out - and it'll come because what she doesn't know is that my H is a habitual cheater. Oh well.

I'm bumping this up for Marry. Not a whole lot of similarities yet. I guess you find needy, selfish people in all walks of life. Let's get some more posts so we can make this an actual research project.<P>Thanks,<BR>K

I can give two answers to each question since due to two emotional affairs I have been the WS and the BS, I was the OW and then found out about XH's OW when I left him. I'll put the answer that applies to me first in <B>bold</B> and the answer that applies to my XH's OW second in <I>italics</I>. (There were no physical affairs, in case you are only looking for those stats.)<P>1. age<BR><B>late 20's</B><BR><I>mid or late 30's I think</I><P>2. education<BR><B>HS grad, some college</B><BR><I>unknown</I><P>3. birth order<BR><B>5th of 5</B><BR><I>unknown</I><P>4. parents<BR><B>divorced when I was young, mother remarried (still married), father passed away but was in a good relationship and would have remarried</B><BR><I>unknown</I><P>5. how met<BR><B>dated before I met my XH, reconnected via email, led to daily chatting</B><BR><I>apparently a Yahoo chat room</I><P>6. did they know this was a married person<BR><B>yes</B><BR><I>yes</I><P>7. anything about the time in ones life<BR><B>in depression, marital problems, financial problems, stress, etc.</B><BR><I>from their emails, about the same</I><P>8. work<BR><B>work-at-home parent</B><BR><I>something factory related</I><P>9. abuse, of any kind, in background<BR><B>yes, physical & mental/emotional</B><BR><I>perhaps emotional abuse from H</I><P>10. have you had contact with OP<BR><B>no, his W does not know about the EA</B><BR><I>yes, I emailed her after the divorce</I>

mitzi
Not young, bartender, cereal cheater, ZEEEESSSSS!
Thanks for the post. I'm making the rounds to see what has been conpiled.<p>K, Thanks for the bump!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was gone all day so this really helps.<p>Kathy,
I understand what you mean about "what goes around comes around". Thanks for the info..

Ok, I'll continue:<p>1.age---31 when started (we were both 41)<p>2. education-- college finished.<p>3.birth order--1st child (of 3)<p>4.parents--married 18 yrs, then divorced (no OP) then after 2 yrs started to live together again , made then their 3rd kid (in fact it's questionable if father is real father) and are planning to remarry this year<p>5.how met---he was company owner, she was his secretary<p>6.did they know this was a married person--yes, she well knew he was married, we were meeting ocasionally, she new my daughters, everythingand she "was so sad working with him and can't having him " so she quit after 10 monts and went to another state but returned after two months and "attacked" <p>7.anything about the time in ones life--nothing special<p>8 work--soon after she moved in with him she quit her temporary job and now is doing NOTHING (neither cooking, cleaning, gardening...)<p>9.abuse, of any kind, in background- I think NO<p>
10. have you had contact with OP---at the time when I was not aware of the A just few minutes and in the last two yrs only one phone call when she told me how my bed was "perfect" and how she could chose any rich man she wanted-not a word about being in love<p>11 anything else that may give somelight on this person- she sad to my OD (19-who lives with them) how bad she felt and how she never wanted to destroy someone's marriage (LOL). During the short time he was in dilema what to do she played very rough-blackmailing him she would leave. Everything she did was on purpose, she is selfcentered, very sure of herself, without any scrupules, going "over dead bodies" to make her aim, she broke some marriages, she had a lot of lovers, she had several abortions, she was always with men for money (she'd be never with him if he broke), she is completely like her mother.<p>12. she is not close educated as I am (MD,PhD, [censored] prof, ), she is not special good looking (even looks older than me), she is not so smart, but she is sooooo self-confident, she used to sing in a group (so probably has nice voice) popular in our town.
So these are all very known data about her, not an imagination.<p>So, if it helps!
I thik here is a "classic" story:
director + secretary + MLC(and no experience with women-we were first to each other)<p>Best wishes with your analyzes
D<p>[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: betrayed and desperate ]</p>

Thanks B&D
What a story. Do you have any contact with him now. Are you divorced? They are living together, right? I hate this, it's very hard for me to think my D is part of the distruction.

Hi Marry-<p>I've been thinking of you each time I check this. As everyone writes of their OP it must be hard to think of your D. Remember she is her own person and who knows what she was or is thinking. I still am impressed daily by everything you are doing to understand and help her. You are a great mother and have become a great friend to me too.<p>Nothing new on my homefront. H and I have had two nice and casual meetings this week. He is on 3 to 11 pm so he comes to see the youngest girls for a few hours on T and Th. I think after this weekend's panic I have really realized that it is out of my hands and that only God knows what will be for the best so I am leaving it to him. The result?, but at least things are going well. I feel at peace.<p>How are things with your D? Keep in touch!<p>K

K,
I always look forward to hearing from you.
I do suffer guilt from the way my husband and I created a tringle with our daughter. I always knew that the "them against me" wasn't healthy, but I didn't know that it had a name and that it causes the type of tringle in an affair. We have stoped this behaivor, now that we are better informed. We are a "united front", to little to late I'm afraid.<p>You are right that it is out of our hands. But what WE do is still under our control. What I mean is that how we interact with 'your husband' and me with my 'd'. I believe that I can stop myself from being "part of the problem". That's my goal and I think that it is your goal too. The out come, as you said, is not in our hands.<p>My hope is that some day she will see that I have changed. My hope is that "I really HAVE changed", not just with her but toward my husband, son still at home and anyone else I come in contact. I have learned that my love has come with strings attached. I'm learning to cut thoes strings,<p>I once read that healing comes with appology, with acknowledging the hurt and ones part in it. I have done this with D and may need to write her a letter. I'm thinking about this.<p>I also feel sick to my stomache about the MM's wife and the hell she must be going through. I know that OG's parents are horrified about what their daughter is doing to YOUR family. Like me, I would say that they wish they could do something, say something to ease YOUR pain. Well, I can't contact MM's wife and likely you will not hear from OG's parents SO I'm going to write to you. I will be adressing you as if you were MM's wife and you can recieve it "as if" I were OG's mom. I hope to do this next week and I hope you are OK with this exercise. You need to hear it and I need to write it.

Okay here are the stats on the 2 A's I know about:<p>First A:<p>1. 26<p>2. Limited education.<p>3.Don't know.<p>4. Never married.<p>5. They met in a pool hall.<p>6. She knew he was married.<p>7. According to H, her brother had recently died.<p>8. Receptionist, then unemployed.<p>9. don't know.<p>10. She phoned my house a number of times to tell me to leave her boyfriend alone.<p>11. Other - she was Mozambican, saw the white guy as a ticket out of poverty. This is NOT a racist statement...it happens a lot there, that's why they hang around pool halls.<p>Second A:<p>1. 36<p>2. Well educated.<p>3. Don't know.<p>4. Don't know.<p>5. I introduced them [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>6.She knew he was married of course.<p>7. She had just had her third divorce, and also split with a guy.<p>8. She works in human relations and is an expert in NLP - oh good, H is being brainwashed now too.<p>9. According to a friend, one of her XH's beat her up.<p>10. I had contact with her regularly until separation. Nothing since, though she DID go out with H and kids one time.<p>11. Hmmm, extra stuff? Manipulative self serving b***h, she deliberately went out to catch my H when she found out our marriage was in a weak place...little tet-a-tet's with him right under my nose. I hate her.

nina,
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm so glad to get your information. I need to get enough to make a study worth while. I figure that if you post , others will follow. So thank you!!!!!!!!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Wow, what a compliment....<p>I just don't know what to say!<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

I have been living in this nightmare of betrayal for l9 months now and my divorce date is set for 11/29/01. I find that I have waves of anger to forgiveness back to anger. Now I am very angry and would love to give you this info as part of my venting. Looking forward to your survey results<p>First OW [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] that I know of forsure-could have been more)<p>1. 29 Husband was 40<p>2. Beauty School Education<p>3. Don't know.<p>4. Don't know.<p>5. She was in one of his classes. He is Police Academy instuctor<p>6.She knew he was married of course.<p>7. She has three kids with three different men.<p>8. She cuts hair, and also does sex for money!<p>9. Has an arrest record as long as your body!
Definitely has had problems, but don't know details.<p>10. She called our house once and I told her never to call again or I would have her arrested. Seen her pass in car and at her workplace and in pictures! (That's how I caught him-pictures in wallet!)<p>11. Very trashy, gave my Husband an STD, which he gave to me, has been arrested for assault and DWI twice, possibly involved in drugs as her best friend was arrested for that.
--------------------<p>* Together 20 years; married 19
* DDay September 19, 2000
* Separated March 4, 2001(third time)
* H not seeing this OW anymore but has dated several since separtation although still married to me!<p>*H claimed to be a Christian (Deacon in church)
* H still in Lala land
* I live in Missouri
* 2 Sons 18 - 15
[img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Dear Mary,<p>you are obviously nice person-completely different than my OW's mother (and father).
THEY were/are coming to visit their daughter (and her married younger sister with 3 kids) together with their youngest son (of 13, remember my YD is 12) at our house (BTW-3 floors+garden+...) completely "cold" (here we say "deadly cold) while he moved her in.
That was 2 months after he kicked me and my YD out to an apartment and we were still "very, very" married.
I usually think that was to see if the house is "appropriate" for all of them. They spent together Christmas eve (my H and me are atheists).
My MIL invited them on New Years lunch and on all these ocasions there were my H, OW and OD my YD was left with me!
I see you are realy concered about your daughter's relationship while they are obviously used to hers way of life. Neither her mother lived different.
Few days ago my friend met her mother's and after whole mess her daughter made she told to my friend (not knowing she knows me and my kids)that OW is "living with an old BF!!!!He is divorced and has 2 daughters who are too much with him almost all the time (if she didn't knew it was about me and my kids she would conclude both girls live with them) and he is TOO MUCH bonded to his kids and OW has no luck in love , she even quit singing cause of him and he doesn't marry her" - can you imagine that!!!!!!!
Like OW didn't know all the facts while braking his marriage.<p>I wish your D comes out of her fog, finds strength to brake this relationship It may look nice but here is often seen that "what goes arround comes arround" is truth some day.
You can help her cause you are aware that noone can/is allowed to build one's life on some other's misery.
Be with her, help her and continue to understand ununderstandable.
Best wishes<p>D

Hi Marry -<p>Just bumping this up. I like your thoughts on strings attached to love. I too was guilty of that and am really working on it. I can't wait to see your letter writing. I too feel the connection. It's like I can discuss the things with you that I wish I could discuss with the OW's parents. Thanks!<p>Nina - What flare you have. I love reading your posts, you have a knack for details and colorful writing. I too am hoping that now that you have posted that others will follow.<p>K

Princess buttercup,
Thanks for your double post. I believe the emotional connection is even more powerful that the phycial so, yes your contribution is right in there with the rest. Thanks. BTW are divorced now?