I am writing this here because I am at a lose for words. I have been married now for 13 years. we have 2 beautiful children. But I have a wife that just does not want to fulfill he part of this marriage. my wife I feel is very lucky she does not have to go out and work. I take the blunt of the work load by working 2 \jobs. This is so that she can be home with our children. I have ask her why she cannot keep a clean household, cook balanced meals, go out together alone. I live in a pigsty. She goes out daily and goes shopping spending money before I even make it. I have put up with this for 5 years. Now I am getting burnt out from working so much overtime that I just cannot do it anymore. I finally closed our checking account and opened a new one in my name only to get our money situation back in order. We have absolutely no love life. When my days off come around I ask her if she would like to go out just the two of us and she says I am too tired. When I am home she goes to bed at 8pm. leaving me by myself. She doesn't even want me to sleep in the same bedroom with her.she has put my pillows on the couch for the past 3 1/2 years. I have suggested we go to a marriage counselor and she refuses. I am not going to those stupid people she replies. I have been going now for about 5 months by myself. The children can see that there is something wrong. I just don't know what to do anymore. I just feel that I am being used. She will never just sit down and talk. and when we do talk and she hears something she doesn't like she sticks her fingers in her ears and starts saying " I am not listening to you LALALALALALALALALALALA.Even during the day when I come home from my school bus run she calls a friend and then leaves. "Sorry",I drive a school bus in the mornings and afternoons 7am to 9am,and 1pm to 3pm and work at the post office from 4pm to 1230am. CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT I AM DOING WRONG? I am confused! [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

BigK, <P>Have you asked her if she would like<BR>to go back to work, or maybe even to<BR>college? Maybe she doesn't want to just<BR>stay home with the kids..maybe she doesn't<BR>feel fulfilled inside just being a stay home<BR>mom. Maybe she feels more like a maid/cook/<BR>servant to everyone else in the house..everyone always needing her and her not being able to need help from anyone..<BR>because it's her 'job' to do everything for everyone else..so in order to for her to get some down time where she's not 'needed' 24/7/365 days a year...she feels she has to go to bed at 8:00 just to have some control over her own life..<P>You don't say how old your children are<BR>so I assume that by comment that on your<BR>days off you ask her that you two go<BR>do something..that they are in school..<P>If so, maybe you can encourage her if she wants to go back to work, or school..to do<BR>so, and the two of you work together on the housework..and get the kids helping cleaning up after themselves..this is something that<BR>you will have to help enforce..and support her in doing..<P>What time are the kids in bed? <P>Do you spend time with them while she's making dinner, do you help them with homework, or is she responsible for that as well because she's a stay home mom?? <P>What do you 'see' as your role as the father and husband? Is it 'just' the breadwinner?<BR>Or as a helper? Do you help discipline the kids when you are there? Or is she left to do that too? Are the kids involved in outside activities? And if so, who takes them to all these ativities? <P>Was your mom a stay at home?<BR>Did you feel that in getting married and her<BR>staying home she'd be just like your mom??<BR>someone to pick up after you, to do your laundry, cook all your meals?? And you just get up go to work, bring home the money, pay the bills, and her do everything else?<P>Being a stay home mom isn't easy..someone needs you and wants your attention 24/7/365 days a year..how often are YOU needed like that?? Where you have no down time? The kids<BR>yelling in one ear MOMMMMMMMMMMMM, husband in the other ear, where's dinner? Where are my socks?? where is my clean shirt? What about time for me, it's been weeks since we've made love, when are we going to do that again?? and if the kids aren't in school and they are home with her, and she's shopping w/ them, she's still needed by them she really has no time for her..and even if they are in school, <BR>and she's home she's doing things for the family..what types of things is shopping for? clothes for herself, or things for everyone else in the family?? Do the kids come to you with their problems/fights or do they always go to her? Do you help intervene in those things? And tell them..HEY Lets talk about this..and sit down with them and teach them how to solve their own disputes and you play referee?? Or is left for her to that also??<P>As far as dinner, have you tried the two of you cooking together? and then cleaning up<BR>together afterwards? And talking to each other while doing these things? <P>Are the kids old enough to stay home alone<BR>without a baby sitter? If not, have you made<BR>arraigements to get a babysitter so that<BR>you can take your wife out to dinner? Or do expect her to find a baby sitter too so that you can take her to dinner?? As the one working outside the home I'm sure you have a larger pool of friends to find a babysitter..<BR>And the friends she does have, maybe she feels "why should I always call on MY friends<BR>to babysit??" <P>And yes, her sticking her fingers in her ears and doing the lalalalala is very childish, but maybe she feels as if you are treating her as a child, and not as the adult that she is..with mutual respect..so she's acting out how she feels you treat her..maybe she's feeling overwhelmed by it all, and doesn't feel she has any time for her, not being needed by someone..for something..<P>Think about it..and see if there is anything that I've said here that rings a bell..

You raise a lot of issues, and if you don't mind, I'll try to address some of them from the point of view of a wife whose husband had some of the same complaints...<P>Originally posted by bigk:<BR><B>But I have a wife that just does not want to fulfill he part of this marriage. my wife I feel is very lucky she does not have to go out and work. I take the blunt of the work load by working 2 \jobs. This is so that she can be home with our children.</B><P>You may feel she is lucky. It is possible that she would sometimes prefer to be the one who gets to leave the house and gets to make the money. There is always a sense of power associated with making money. Feeling powerless is depressing.<P><B>I have ask her why she cannot keep a clean household, cook balanced meals, go out together alone. I live in a pigsty.</B><P>Maybe if she feels you think it is 'her place' to do these things, and resents that, it could cause some retaliation. Do you think that she likes to live in a pigsty? Just a question. I sure didn't, but picking up after a pig and two young kids was literally more than I could handle when I was depressed.<P><B>She goes out daily and goes shopping spending money before I even make it.</B><P>What does she spend money on? What do you spend money on?<P><B>I finally closed our checking account and opened a new one in my name only to get our money situation back in order.</B><P>Was she responsible for paying the bills, buying groceries, etc. before? Now who is in charge of that?<P><B>We have absolutely no love life. When my days off come around I ask her if she would like to go out just the two of us and she says I am too tired.</B><P>Depression can make you physically tired all the time. I am noticing some signs of depression and denial.<P><B>When I am home she goes to bed at 8pm. leaving me by myself. She doesn't even want me to sleep in the same bedroom with her.she has put my pillows on the couch for the past 3 1/2 years.</B><P>Every night? A few times a week? What do you do? How often do you have sex?<P><B>I have suggested we go to a marriage counselor and she refuses. I am not going to those stupid people she replies. I have been going now for about 5 months by myself.</B><P>I am glad you are going to a counselor. This is where our roles reverse. I was the one who was getting help while he was the one who "didn't need it" and wouldn't go ... and wouldn't listen when he finally did.<P><B>She will never just sit down and talk. and when we do talk and she hears something she doesn't like she sticks her fingers in her ears and starts saying " I am not listening to you LALALALALALALALALALALA.</B><P>That is very immature behavior, another thing I was accused of. Just a question, could it be that she thinks you treat her like a child? Are there issues with her own father?<P><B>Even during the day when I come home from my school bus run she calls a friend and then leaves.</B><P>Well, I guess that too I can relate to. The little time my XH was home, was my only chance to get out of the house, and I would use that time to visit a friend or take a walk or a drive.<P>Check out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire and print two copies. See if she will fill one out. You may be very surprised at her answers, if she will cooperate. You might have to make her understand that you are sincerely questioning staying in the marriage if she remains unwilling to talk and join you in counseling.

bigk,<P>i am very sorry that you are feeling lonley and that you are posting in this forum.<P>while i can understand where thornedrose is coming from, i have to disagree... from reading your post i get that your wife is not feeling overwhelmed and like a maid because she is doing nothing. some important details like how old are the children and how much do they depend on her is important. <P>being at home and taking care of the children all day can be draining, but if they are in school and of a more independant age TR's theory isn't applicable.<P>If she has time to shop to the point that household money is being grossly affected then i can't see her being too busy with kids anyway. <P>my opinion is all i have and it is not positive. i am sure you can take it from there. how did she react to her name being removed from the checking account???<P>Why do you allow her to put your pillows on the couch everynight? have you discussed this with her? and as far as her putting her fingers in her ears, how childish. <P>have you asked your counselor what to do? i know there is 2 sides to every story, but looking at it from your side makes me feel that you are being totally taken advantage of...<P>sorry if i was too opinionated or offending...<P>kim...

To those of you who have asked how old are my children they are 11 year old boy and a 8 year old girl. neither of them depend on mommy. especially when they are sick they come to dad. to the first person that replied I have asked her to find a job. She has replied your the man you are supposed to be the bread winner. I spend as much time as possible with the children. Especially on the weekends. I also cook and clean on the weekends. I really have no time for anything else. I have tried to get my wife to just do something. but it seems hopeless. She does not even wash my clothes . She does take care of the childrens clothing. But throws mine into a pile and leaves them there for me. She states that she is noones slave. She does bring the children to school each day and picks them up each day. Does not help with homework unless my children call me at work and ask for help. Believe if I was home at night I would be right there to help them both. I love my children and I love them both the same. My wife treats and lets my son get away with murder but my daughter can never seem to do anything right. I have never treated my chilodren differently. always the same. I always tell them talk to your mother with respect or you will be punished. My wife for some reason cannot show any type of emotion anymore. Maybe it is because all her friends are divorced! I do not know I am guessing. I used to fight with her in front of the children but about a year ago I stopped. As far as the pillows on the couch. every night I sleep there. Or sometimes I find my son on the couch and I sleep in his room. Sex is out of the question. twice this year feb, jul. last year maybe 3 times not sure. but not very often. Sometimwes I wonder how we had kids. Before we were married it seemed like 3-4 time a week. no hugs, kisses even when I go to work. Boy I sometimes do not know where I get my strength. as far as holding my emotions in. Cheating was on my mind but I feel that doesn't solve anything but giving me possibly two problems. I watch my father cheat on my mother and they finally divorced. I do not want to do that. I have tried just about everything I can think of is there anything anyone can suggest. Or do I just quit?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by idostylin:<BR>[QB]bigk,<P>while i can understand where thornedrose is coming from, i have to disagree... from reading your post i get that your wife is not feeling overwhelmed and like a maid because she is doing nothing. some important details like how old are the children and how much do they depend on her is important. <P>-------------------------------------<P>Kim, He says they have been married 13 yrs,<BR>and this has been going on for 5 yrs..if<BR>she's felt that way for this many years..yes, it can be pretty overwhelming..<P>Maybe..she tried to to talk to him before <BR>and he didn't 'hear' what she was saying..he doesn't say...so if for years she tried to explain to him how she felt..and he wasn't listening to her, she probably gave up trying to talk to him..<P>She may not feel like she has a say so in if she can go back to work or not..because he thinks she should feel blessed in staying home cleaning up after everyone cooking for everyone, doing laundry for everyone else..and yes, feeling like a maid..and feeling overwhelmed that one person can't do it all..so she gave up trying..because she can't do it all..so why try??<P>But, staying home and having no support or help gets overwhelming..for one person..<P>can you imagine being at work and your boss comes and says-- Here is D's, T's and P's work, you are to do their work for them (not that they aren't capable of doing it, they just don't do it)plus keep up with your own stuff..oh and if P and T have a problem you need to stop whatever it is your doing and go help them, oh and by the way, if I need something you need to stop what ever it is your working on to come help me too..wouldn't you get overwhelmed?? this happening every day for years?? And if after five years you have been asking for help, support and for at least a little time for a break and got none --You'd go into shut down mode..which is what it sounds like IMHO..whats happened to his wife..that she hit shut down mode and just quit trying to do for everyone else..and expects them to start <BR>picking up after themselves, helping with the dishes, vacuuming, dusting, and what have you..and if he hasn't been encouraging the kids to help pick up after themselves, then he is failing his kids as well..in not preparing them to be responsible for themselves as adults, and helping them to believe that it's always mom's job to do for them..and they will never learn to do for themselves..<P>I don't know if he's done these things or not..but, I was just posing those as things he can look at and ask himself, is this a possibility..as to what may be wrong here..which is what he asked..<BR>"what am I doing wrong???"<P>And if he finds that any of those things are how it is..then maybe he can see where he can make some changes in his marriage and see where he things can change and help his marriage.

to thornedrose...<P>why can't i disagree with you without getting your opinion on my disagreement. sounds to me that you are overidentifying with the wife... i understand that you may have pain in that area, but bigk has pain in areas also. <P>according to his answer to all of us he has a much bigger problem than a wife who has given up... although i see signs of possible depression as well, it could be due to her own issues...<P>it would be my suggestion to take the children and move over. give her the space she needs and make her become responsible for herself. <P>i was in an abusive relationship for 21 years. i accepted that. i let the fear of having to do things by myself stagnate me(too blind to see that i was carrying all the weight myself all along). <P>there will be sacrifices to leaving, but maybe she needs a reality check. <P>i can relate to the problem weather it is from a man or a woman, i identify with the one reaching out. i can't automatically assume that because the wife is unresponsive that it is the husbands negelct that caused it. wifes can be loosers too...<P>i appreciate your compassion, and maybe because of my own pain i am a little hard hearted... but i see a child that needs to grow up in bigk's life, and all he is doing is being a codependant and enabling her to continue to be a childish and irresponsible woman...<P>all opinions do or don't matter and the opinion should not be argued. each has his/her own perspective. take what you can use and throw the rest away...

Hang in there ... it took two people to get married, two people to make those babies, and it will take TWO PEOPLE to make the marriage work. See if you can get her here to tell her side of the story ...<P><B>they are 11 year old boy and a 8 year old girl. neither of them depend on mommy. especially when they are sick they come to dad.</B><P>I notice you are very blunt. It is hard to believe that children that young don't need their mommy, when she is the primary caregiver. But, it is your opinion on things, and we need to hear this stuff in order to see if we can give suggestions.<P><B>I have asked her to find a job. She has replied your the man you are supposed to be the bread winner.</B><P>Is this how YOU feel? That you are responsible for 100% of the financial support? Do you feel that she is responsible for 100% of the domestic support in return? Do you discuss these things?<P><B>I also cook and clean on the weekends. She does not even wash my clothes. She does take care of the childrens clothing. But throws mine into a pile and leaves them there for me. She states that she is noones slave.</B><P>Hmmm ... it is the man's job to make the money, but it is NOT the woman's job to do the housework ... it sounds like she's picking and choosing which stereotypes to apply to her situation so it suits her best!<P>Well, I used to do the kids laundry then my laundry then his laundry. If his didn't get done he thought that I didn't do anything all day ... I also felt that it wouldn't hurt him to throw his own clothes in the machine, maybe TWO loads for every TEN that I did ...<P><B>She does bring the children to school each day and picks them up each day. Does not help with homework unless my children call me at work and ask for help.</B><P>What is she doing while the kids are doing homework? Why are they allowed to call you at work with these problems?<P><B>I love them both the same. My wife treats and lets my son get away with murder but my daughter can never seem to do anything right. I have never treated my chilodren differently.</B><P>Again, it may just be that you are blunt, but this comes off very harsh. I love both of my children the same but they are very unique personalities and I can NOT treat them the same! Do they seem to get along better or worse when just one of the parents are around, than when both are around?<P><B>Maybe it is because all her friends are divorced!</B><P>Well, yes, she will be getting an entirely different point of view if her environment is divorced friends rather than if she was around happily married friends. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like happily married women get together to chat the way that divorced and women in relationship troubles do.<P><B>I used to fight with her in front of the children but about a year ago I stopped.</B><P>When you say fight, what do you mean? Physically? Did you yell at her? Did you both yell at each other, throw things, call names? How did the kids react?<P><B>As far as the pillows on the couch. every night I sleep there... Sex is out of the question. twice this year feb, jul. last year maybe 3 times not sure.</B><P>Well, I'm going to guess that there are emotional needs that she has that are not being met, if she is refusing you this need. When my XH and I were fighting all the time, the last thing I wanted to do was have sex. He decided that I must be getting it elsewhere since I didn't have his physical need to have sex. You can guess that really didn't help much.<P><B>Cheating was on my mind but I feel that doesn't solve anything but giving me possibly two problems.</B><P>Please don't give up. Please don't quit. Please don't cheat. Find support around you - groups, church, friends - find support here, read and educate yourself about Love Busters and Emotional Needs. I think you'll find out where you need to begin. What has your counselor said about these issues?<p>[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Princess Buttercup ]

Ouch, this sounds like the direction my marriage is slowly, painfully heading. I can easily see myself writing something similar to BigK's message in 3 years, given my marriage's current trajectory.<P>My wife, too, sleeps as much as she can get away with - 11 hours a night is not unusual (side effect of clinical depression). She is the primary caregiver for our 3 year old (and yes, I spend a *lot* of high quality time with him, as you do yours), and does the laundry -- that's it. I work a demanding job, clean the house, cook all meals on the weeknight and weekends, take care of all financial matters as well as most coordination with the "outside world", and maintain the house. Sex? Nope. <P>Sound familiar?<P>One thing you don't mention, but I sense, is that this is taking a toll on your self respect. Each night you spend on the couch nibbles away at your pride, each "LALALALA" makes you feel diminished as a man. That, in some ways, is the worst, because it limits what you can accomplish in your life, and limits how good of a role model you can set for your children. It also breeds anger and loathing towards your wife, hardly fertile ground for a healthy marriage.<P>Depression? Sure, she's depressed, and it sounds like your wife is too. I've lived with the effects of her depression for 10 years -- it pulls us both down. My wife's depression could be mitigated, I'm sure, if she simply (!) ate something approaching a reasonably balanced diet and exercised occasionally, both of which I would fully support and applaud (her past counselors have said this). But as it is, she is a frail, depressed woman who blames me and her parents for her depression, and yet seems strongly opposed to doing anything proactively to change it. It's a well-worn warm blanket of depression that she doesn't want to part with.<P>No answers, just empathy. <P>It seems to me that you need to do what is best for your children. The complicating factor is that the 'hidden' impact on your children is hard to gauge -- as they turn into teens, it will be harder and harder to hide or work around the fact that you and your wife are so distant. Will they lose respect for you both? If you divorce, will you be able to spend as much time with your children as you do now? (my lawyer tells me that, in our state at least, the mother nearly always gets primary custody). <P>Good luck, bigk, you have a lot to think about. I do wish you luck in getting your wife in to see a counselor with you. One thing to watch out for with an "immature" spouse, though: based on my experience, if the counseling sessions begin to indicate that yes, indeed, most of the effort/lacks/problems actually lie in the court of the more immature partner (surprise!), that partner is likely to blame the counselor, and want to either stop the sessions or switch counselors to look for a more accomodating counserlor. ARGH.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by idostylin:
<strong>to thornedrose...<p>why can't i disagree with you without getting your opinion on my disagreement. sounds to me that you are overidentifying with the wife... i understand that you may have pain in that area, but bigk has pain in areas also. I'm sorry I offended you..
and yes, I can identify w/ the wife..<p>i can relate to the problem weather it is from a man or a woman, i identify with the one reaching out. i can't automatically assume that because the wife is unresponsive that it is the husbands negelct that caused it. wifes can be loosers too...yes, wives can be loosers too..<p>i appreciate your compassion, and maybe because of my own pain i am a little hard hearted... but i see a child that needs to grow up in bigk's life, and all he is doing is being a codependant and enabling her to continue to be a childish and irresponsible woman...and yes, she is acting childish, I said the same thing..and from what
he said about a past of molestation..that would explain a lot of it..she's an emotional handicap..
until she deals with that..<p>all opinions do or don't matter and the opinion should not be argued. each has his/her own perspective. take what you can use and throw the rest away...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree...

BigK, <p>Please forgive me, if you felt I was
attacking you..It wasn't my intent..it hit an emotional nerve me..<p>Having been a shm, and expected to clean up
after everyone..and expected to like it
because It's what he wanted, and it was MY JOB!!<p>yes, I was blest in being able to stay home
w/ my children--<p>but, at the same time..it was a full time job..that was never ending..no holidays,
no vacations, no sick days, something always
needing to be done, laundry, dishes, shopping,
cleaning up after everyone is draining..especially when you have nobody there to help..even when they
are there they don't help, because they are to tired, had a long day, so they go get a beer sit down in front of tube the rest of the day while your still expected to do..when does she get a break?? When can she sit down and just relax?
And not be needed by someone?? when she's sleeping..<p>I'm not saying that this is how it was..only you
can answer that..<p>And as far as her past sexual abuse, that add's even more complications into the mix..if you can
read some of the post here on the board about abuse..and how it effects ppl..and maybe it will
help you uderstand how she might feel inside..especially when it comes to sex..
I can relate to that issue as well..and until she
deals with that..she really is emotionally handicapped..basically stuck at the emotional age
in her understanding of relationships at the age
the abuse started..and if she feels she has no say so, or control in any other aspects of her life..
(staying home or going to work, or school) then she will try and control the only thing she feels she has any control over..and thats if she has sex with you or not..something in which you can't force her to do..but, until 'she' is ready to
deal with those things inside..she will remain
an emotional child..and the sad thing for you..is you can't force her to face them..<p>I'd like to recommend a few books could buy, and you could read them..or just leave them laying around and pray that she will pick them up and
read them on her own..that may help you understand
the dynamics of what is going on inside of her..
that she may be afraid to face..she may feel she has no hope--<p>The Wounded Heart (Hope for Adult Victims of Childhood Sexual Abuse) by: Dr. Dan B. Allender<p>Beauty For Ashes - Joyce Meyer<p>Healing for Damaged Emotions- David A. Seamands<p>Boundaries--Townsend/Cloud<p>Those I have read..they were very difficult and very painful to read..to see how everything I have felt and thought about myself was a lie..and I had to figure out..Who I am and what is it that I really believe..if what I have always felt and thought about myself was a lie..and she'll have to go through all those things also...<p>I am not going to lie -- this will be very hard on you and your marriage..because you are closest emotionally to her..and any abuse that she feels you have done to her..will come out with a vengence and rage..and you will feel as if she is blaming you for every single hurt she has buried inside..and will feel attacked at every level..
And if/when she starts to face these things it will either make your marriage stronger or break it..depending on how you relate to her during that time..if you don't expect sex from her, and just hold her..when she needs it..even if you so desperately want to show her you love her by making love to her..she will just need to be held, and made to feel safe and secure, and helped to understand it wasn't her fault..and if you can't help her feel that..then she may turn else where to find that..and if it was a family member
who abused her, you may want to verbalize your feelings of hatered for them hurting her so deeply..don't..because even though she hates what they did to her, she still loves them..so the way
to help here, is just tell her they can't hurt her anymore, and that, yes you agree what they did to her was horrible. But never that you hate them..
(even if you do) Learn to hate what they did and not them...it will help her in the long run..
because she will have to accept that this person
is a criminal..(even if you understand that, she has a hard time accepting/acknowleding that this person whom she loved and admired is a criminal
and should be in jail)and if it were her own child..she'd make sure they were punsihed..but she probably doesn't see herself as being worth as much as her own child...