Sorry, just had to jump in here...<P>If you base your happiness on who you are with, on what someone else says or does, it will not be real happiness... sorry, but it's the truth. If you can't find your happiness within yourself, you'll end up in the same situation over and over again. And if you don't teach your kids to be happy within themselves, you'll be sending them on the neverending search for someone or something to make them happy... it just doesn't work that way... things or people or substances for that matter don't make us happy, we will only be happy when we find peace within ourselves. When we find that then we can share it with others, but happiness is an attitude that we can choose to assume or turn away from.<P>Maybe your relationship with your husband can't work right now, maybe you need to work on yourself and your attitudes right now, but if you think jumping into another relationship will make you happy, you will surely be disappointed.<P>Listen to K, he knows what he's talking about. Think about your kids and the life you will be forcing on them.

Oh boy! I can tell you both sides. See, I left my first husband for another man. We were not an internet affair, but worked together. He too was married with two children. One of the posters (k I think), gave three options and mentioned that number 2 would be one you most likely would not want to do. That's the number we chose. Sat down with everyone and spilled our guts (I mean friends, parents, siblings and our current spouses). Anyhow, don't know if anybody wants to know more. If you do, ask. You see in your posts your all right to a certain extent. K is right, almost ALL affairs do not end up in a happy new marriage. Ours did, but extremely rare.

Bonnie,<P>I'd love to see more info. How long have you been married with your current husband? What caused the problems in your first marriage? Did you address the problems in your first marriage with your OM, so that you'd make sure that it wouldn't happen again.<P>

Oh boy there is SO much that I could write pages! Lets start w/me. I was married for 10 yrs to a man that I started dating at 16. We had 2 kids. He was a blue collar worker and I worked in an office with all engineers. Mostly men my age (early 30's). Past regarding my marriage. We married young (22). I had attended college and lived with a girlfriend for a couple of years, he never lived away from his parents until getting married to me. I was more outgoing then him and well, lets just say I wore the pants in our marriage. My mother was that way in our family too. We had a total of three homes during our marriage all found and decided on by me. I asked his opinion but it was always "I don't know, what ever you think". I handled every bill that entered our home. His check was automatically deposited and I took care of everything. He had no clue of what anything cost or even how to pay a bill. We seemed happy. He was happy and I assumed this was what marriage was about. We had two kids and again every decision regarding them was made by me. Their doc appointments, their daycare providers, their entire health in general. He was there to play with them and loved them. Still, this was the way it was for us from day one and I assumed this was marriage. There never was a strong sexual bond between us. I was never turned on by him but figured that was me. From getting together so young I didnt' know any different. Friends would talk about how great their "sex" was and I assumed I was this controlling, cold harded ***** that did it just for him. Sometimes I would feel overwhelmed with the load I carried. Two small children, a full-time job and all of the responsibilities at home. On top of that, I insisted that my home was always in perfect shape and everything was always organized. I asked for my husbands help a lot but he was incapable of doing it. I'm not being snotty, I'm stating a fact. I suppose I could have "taught" him how to balance check books or pay bills but the truth is, it scared the hell out of me because there was no trust there in him being capable and I was "unable" to give that up. Our jobs were different. I worked on computers, he didn't know how to turn one on. He didn't understand my work nor did he care. I'd talk, he'd watch tv. I had three children and no spouse. Now, back to my job. These guys all had families too and we often all ate lunch together. They'd discuss their home lives and it hit me like a ton of bricks right between the eyes. These men had wives that took care of them and their children, like I did at home BUT they also took care of their wife and children. Mine husband did not. So, I started to get help from my husband more and more. Things like "I really don't think our son needs this treatment at the hospital but I'm scared and confused. What do you think we should do?" Blank look on his face and an "I don't know" or he didn't hear me at all when the tv was on. Now, I go to work and ask my friends what they think and they offer suggestions, advice. Especially the OM. He became my good friend for two years. Here, my emotional needs were being met. He took care of his wife, his kids and ME. He also had a great job and was extremely smart. I started to learn so much about the business we were in from him and he fascinated me with his knowledge. Our spouses knew about our friendship. They knew we lunched together and sometimes even had a beer together after work. At the time I felt he was only a very good friend and after all, can't oposite sexes be good friends??? Then the day came while eating lunch in the park that he leaned over and kissed me. A couple of days he admitted that he loved me and couldn't get me out of his mind. I felt the same about him and our "sexual" affair started. It lasted 1 month when he got a job offer about 10 miles away. It was a great opportunity so he took it. We still continued to meet for lunch, talk every day and e-mail. We also left ea. other voice messages that we could check when we were not at work. My whole personality changed at home. I was crabby. I wanted out but didn't know how. I loved my kids and didn't want to divorce because of them. Yet the more I loved the OM, the more I started to resent my present husband for just being there. I remember him crawling into bed one night smelling of oil and I commented that he should shower. His comment back was "I took one this morning". Then he would expect sex. I'd run to the bathroom and cry. I got to the point where if I even thought he'd want sex I'd make sure I had a few beers before hand so I could be good and drunk. I felt like I was being raped because I could not stand him to even touch me when I loved somebody else so much. When you have communication, trust and intiminacy that makes the sex and I had learned that with this OM. So, for awhile my life fell apart at home because I couldn't hold back on my saddness and confessed my affair. My angry husband called my lovers wife and it was now out in the open.<P>I'll put more in another posting cuz this is getting long.

Now the husband's side (the OM). He was just the opposite of me. Married later in life at the age of 27. When he was in college he fell in love with a young woman that he dated for two years. He planned on marrying her and even bought her the ring. He said he loved this woman with every part of him. But, she dumped him. He said for 2-3 years he ached for her, couldn't get her out of his mind and didn't date much. When he did start dating he went from one woman to another trying to "replace" her. He moved out of state for a job and started making new friends. Moved in with a buddy at work and was introduced to his ex wife. She too was in her late 20's. HE had dated about 15-20 women in his life but she had not. She had never had a serious boyfriend. They dated for a couple of months and he said he liked her a lot. All of his friends were getting married and he too wanted a wife and kids. He received a job offer back here in this state and his ex wife as if she could come with him. He said that he cared more for her then he had any of the other women he had dated and by this time in his life felt he'd never feel the love that he had when he was in college. So, she came with him and they married. He said it was a nice marriage. What lacked in their marriage was intimacy. She was obsessed with being extremely thin (suffered eating disorder in college) and most of her free time consisted of running on their tread mill. He loved to cook, especially grill. He bought cook books and a huge fancy book. She had no interest and usually didn't eat what he prepared for fear of gaining weight. He also built and flew model airplanes. An interest she didn't share. He loved to camp, she was the hotel type. Still, no fighting, seemed normal and they had two children. Once the children were born she had even less time for him. Go figure, with a full-time job and kids! They did the family thing, eating together and playing with the kids etc... Then, the kids would go to bed and she'd hit the tread mill. He said he'd ask her to sit with him on the coach because he missed her and wanted to hold her and she'd make some comment and not be there. She threw herself so into their children and her exercise that there was no time for him alone. <P>He meets me and the first thing he noticed is how I actually ate my meals at lunch! I wasn't extremely underweight and like his wife, I worked out but was not obsessed with it. He liked how excited I was about my job and wanting to learn. He also admits that as an ego boaster he found it exciting for an attractive and popular woman to be so interested in him. He talked about his airplanes and I showed an interest. An interest enough to even go flying with him. His wife had never seen his planes. I'd go have a beer with him and crack jokes (his wife preferred Perkins and coffee). It bothered him that their home was always a mess as he's extremely neat. After dinner he'd suggest that they clear the table together and then take the kids for a walk. She'd tell him to not worry about it and that was that. <P>So, the question so many ask. Was it just a show between us? Were we putting our best feet foward and now that we are married our nasty habits are coming out??? Well, we now own a camper and camp almost every weekend. I help build and fly model airplanes. Our house is spotless (with us both working on it and liking it that way). We cook dinner together everynight and clean up together. We watch no t.v. When the kids go to bed we hit the deck, a beer in hand and spend 1-3 hours talking about our day. I talk, he listens, he talks and I listen. If I just need an ear, he's it. If I need advice he offers his opinion. He takes care of me and I him. We are so intimiate that we hold hands when walking, shopping etc.... He calls me 2-5 times a day just to hear my voice and tell me he loves me. We always leave in the morning with a kiss and greet each other with a kiss. When we are not together I miss him. <P>Our kids? Well my two live with us full-time and his are with us about 40% of the time. We both coach soccer, I'm a girlscout leader for my daughter, him a leader for my son. He's a great step dad, I'm a great step mom to his kids and not only do they all four love us, they love each other. On top of that, my family (parents, siblings) adore him and his feel the same about me. Plus, I have a great relationship with my EX in-laws.<P>Sounds like the Brady bunch huh? Well that's the good stuff about it. There is bad and it was EXTREMELY painful, long and expensive to get where we are today. <P>Upon finding out about the affair I told my husband that I would go to counceling because although I felt our marriage was over the kids deserved me to go to counseling. My husband responded with extreme hate and bitterness. He told me he'd take the home and kids and I'd never see them again. He then filed for divorce. The OM's wife reacted just the opposite. He asked for a divorce and told her he didn't love her, most likely never did the way she deserved but that he'd always be there for her and the kids. She didn't care if he didn't love her, she loved him enough for both of them. Begged him to stay. The guilt is tremendous, especially when she called his family and they all told him he owed it to her to stay. So, he agrees to stay and starts counseling. I decided that I didn't want my marriage even if he wasn't there and I encouraged him to work on his marriage, backing entirely away. So, for a couple of months that is where we stood. My then husband found a woman within two weeks and moved in with her and her two boys. They came after me and fought for custody, robbed the home, put bombs in the mail box and egged the home. This is another whole story, but believe me she is a nutcase that isn't allowed his family either. After loosing in all aspects she now has told him he CAN NOT have any contact with his children 2 miles away and no contact with his family. Her and her boys only and being the "child" that he is, he's following her orders. So, that is why my kids step dad is the leader for scouts. <P>Told you there was a lot. There's more too but geez.....<P>

Wow, Bonnie---and I bet there's more. Quite the story, thank you for sharing it.<P>The first thing I'd like to do is to congratulate you on your happy marriage. Although you don't say how long you've been married, I'm assuming that it's only been a few years. If it's longer, that's great---although I'm guessing that you'll be in good shape.<P>Looking at the stories, I see some of the "classic" symptoms. You apparently weren't getting all your needs met by your first husband, even though you married him. He looks like he was a conflict avoider---everything is always "fine". You appear to have been lacking the skills to successfully deal with that type of personality. You gave too much---and started to snap.<P>You shared marital problems with a member of the opposite sex---probably the most common way to start an affair.<P>Once the affair started, your husband would appear even worse to you than before---partly because you would do this to justify the affair, and partly because he WAS worse than the OM. And upon finding out about your affair, he treated you very badly and filed for divorce, killing whatever chance you had.<P>Now---do you have any regrets? Do your children know about your affair? Had you wished that you had tried counseling earlier in your first marriage before the affair and had dealt with the marriage first (either making it great or divorce)?<P>And with your current marriage---it seems that you're working with a better "match" in terms of compatibility, but it also seems that you've learned and are practicing the MarriageBuilder rules for a good marriage in this marriage. Do you feel that you've learned from your first marriage, and are applying new skills to your current marriage? Do you think that if you had knowledge of these rules and skills in your first marriage that you might have been able to save it?<P>As I said before, it looks like you're very happy, and I think that's great. I'm trying to get a read on (or have you say aloud) that the reason you're happy isn't necessarily because you jumped into a new relationship, but because you learned the marriage skills along the way to make your current marriage successful (and that you made mistakes too). <P>There are success stories that come from the "wrong" side (having an affair working out to a great marriage). But these are usually because the people involved went to the trouble of learning good behavioral skills for the marriage (whether they did it formally or picked it up in their first marriage). I'm guessing that you were successful because of this---not because of your affair.

Oh dear your such a smart man! You are so correct in my ex being a conflict avoider and me not knowing how to work with somebody like that. You asked if I wished we would have gotten counseling before the affair. I swear to God that I thought our marriage was good before I started getting involved with the other man, and by then it was too late because I didn't care enough to work on my marriage by then. I also agree that my current husband is a much better match for me. I have been to a counselor on my own and I am a much happier person in this marriage vs. my first marriage. And you are 100% and I mean 100% correct in saying that I use a lot of the Marriage Builders tips with my second marriage. My whole out look on marriage is different this time around. I guess I feel so complete in my marriage that I don't want to even give it a chance to slip. After reading marriage builders I know exactly what got my husband and I together and you touched on this too. It also makes me realize what is important to him and what is important to me. It's what is needed to keep our marriage strong so I don't slip up on that. I know communication is at the top of my husband's list and intimacy is very important to him too. I make sure to keep that strong between us. Him taking on some of the responsibility makes me feel like a person. We picked out our home together and I get to toss the bills at him and he pays them at least half of the time! I am a different person in this marriage. I'm not a ***** and I don't have temper tantrums and scream at my spouse when I'm frustrated. Two reasons. One, this spouse would not put up with that, he'd put me in my place and I respect that. He stands up for himself and 2, he doesn't give me a reason to become so frustrated.<P>My kids don't know that our marriage ended with an affair. They are adjusting and doing well because I'm extremely involved in their lives, all of their grandparents are and all of their aunts/uncles from both sides are. They are surrounded by love and family. My first husband fought me for custody and it was for bitterness reasons only. This came out in the process (which by the way is long and extremely scarey and painful). His girlfriend participated since he lived with her and would be a large part of the kids lives if he were to get custody. Even she commented that she would not marry him until he learned how to take care of himself and make decisions. So, he went toward the same type of woman. Except, she uses her dominate personality in destructive ways. She came across as being mentally unstable (Unable to pass psycho tests) and he came across as lacking parenting skills to the extent of being one of the worst the judge has ever seen. I never saw this in our marriage because I did most of the parenting and what he did was because I TOLD him too. On his own he could barely care for himself, let alone kids.<P>I'm running around with this again. Am I happy with the results? Well I really wish that it would have been my second husband that I married in the first place and then all of this pain could have been avoided. But, was it worth it? I'd never think for a second that I'd want my first marriage back but that is clouded by his actions these past few years. In an attempt to hurt me he used the children and because of that I hate the man. I can't see to a point of ever thinking it wasn't best to be out of that marriage.

I'm kind of seeing the light here after reading all these stories...<BR>I can't honestly say that I don't want my husband...it's just that at the moment I want the OM more. I don't know what I'd do if I was to leave for my OM and things didn't work out. After hearing stories from you, my husband isn't that bad afterall. Yes, he doesn't totally fulfill me emotionally but that is something that I can get from myself and not necessarily another person.<BR>I know you're saying it's difficult to talk to your husband, but at least give it a try and if he is not willing to REALLY work it out with you and doesn't give you the emotional relationship you're looking for than tell him that you are going to have to make a decision to make you happy.<BR>As far as the kids go...I have none so I can't really say. Why don't you speak to someone (an adult) who's parents divorced and ask their opinion. My husband's parents divorced when he was 10.. he also had a 4 & 12 year old brother and 11 year old sister. Although it must have been tough for my husband to deal with...he survived and has no effects from it now.<P>Good Luck...and make yourself happy.

I have been sitting here reading all of your wonderful advice. Most of it I have tried. Married the man I thougth I was in love with at 15! Have since then found out at 15 you do not know what love is. We are not friends.....never really have been. I am out going and he feels threatened by it. I do not speak out towards him because I do anything to avoid a fight. My happiness has always been from my kids. I love them more then live. OM has shown me my happiness can stem from other places other then being mom. He does not want to give up his kids......they are old enough to choose were to live and he feels they will pick him. His wife is not up for mother of the year award........guess my affairs knocks me out too! But he is offereing me a home and a place for all five of our kids. He is 14 years older then I am. He has been unhappily married for 22 years. I read the remarks how an affair never or almost never leads to a happy relationship.....well, you are wrong here. I for the first time in my life know what it feels like to be loved, by someone you do not share blood with. I like it too! You can lie to a person, but you can fake the looks, the touches and smiles the message from deep within his heart. He loves me. and I know I love him. My H is not a great father. Yells a lot, and never wants to help me with the kids......example.......my 7 year old struck out three times in a baseball game....dad did not talk to him for 2 days. Is that a good father? Will not work with him on his hitting, but wants to punish him for a strike out.....it embaressed dad is what it did. So what your kid struck out.......he is a good ball player,,,,,had a bad night! OM is caring and gentle and would never treat my kids....or his kids like this. I have watched his kids play ball from the other side of he gym.....I have an affection for his kids......and he has one for mine. The age difference, 31 and 45, makes this relationship even better. He is settled and knows what he wants in life and it is me! But is a good stepfather better then then real thing? <BR>Do not judge my OM, he is a wonderful person, I respect him so much. He's one of those guys that you just like. Can it be wrong if it feels so great?<BR>If my husband found out, or if I told him, I would end up dead. and that is not a joke that is the real story. Then he would get to raise my kids. And he may be their biological father, but they are my kids!!!!!<BR>I know WONDER you are a man, and view this from a man's point....but try to see mine too. I love this man and he loves me. can you understand? <BR>LAURA, you can email me at r2cool24@yahoo.com, I am a Jeff Gordon fan!!<BR>Thanks

Inlove.........<P> No it is not wrong in my book that this other male makes you feel happy again. I am too where you are. He makes me feel like my spouse has never made me feel. I know they all say you have to be happy with yourself first. Well that loved one can complete your happiness. And it was so nice to read that second marriages can work out wonderfully. I get so tired of reading how bad the second marriage end up. Like Bonnie said her first marriage just was not a good match for her. Boy does that ring some bells here. You can try till you are blue in the face and still not match years later. Maybe you might of or thought you did at one time. We are never ever for sure about anything. So thank you Bonnie was great reading all you wrote. It sure makes me think more and more about my life and wanting that in love feeling back . And it will be with someone else too. Like Inlove said sure we might not be mothers of the year cause we love another but we are happier and I think thats what counts. We love our kids no less either. We are great mothers we just were not made for that spouse we are married to. Thanks Inlove and Bonnie for the great material.

Well I did post to show you a different loop on this type of thing. I was one of the few that ended up being very lucky in love the second time around with the OM. But, if there are kids involved like I stated above, there is very painful and difficult things to deal with too. My ex and my husband's ex handled the situation and divorce two totally different ways. It took me almost 3 years in the court system to get divorced from my ex because he was so bitter that he fought over everything. He also tried to quite his high paying job and take a 7.00 per hr. fence building job in an effort to lower his child support. He took the kids for a weekend visit and returned them two weeks later. He had loaded them up in his camper and no body knew where they were. The police don't do anything because they are not "missing" they are with their father. I got up to 30 calls per night harassing me etc..... It caused my health to go bad from the stress and it wasn't a great start to my new relationship. I tell you, if it isn't real love you don't survive! On his end he ended up paying his ex spousal maintenance for 6 years. They were only married for 5 and she is college educated and works full time. In our state that is unheard of but he paid it out of guilt. Not to mention all the other things he agreed to just to get out of the marriage. She sits with a six digit salary per year with his contributions to her salary. See, his father was an electrician that owned his own business but my husband wanted more. He wanted a big home and a comfortable salary. He was there with his first marriage, plus having the toys (boats, snowmobiles) etc...He gave all of that up to be with me and since his children are little, it will be a long time before he's at that point in his life again. I'm just trying to explain, that if your OM and you are not THAT in love, with all of the hurdles you'll fail. Please be sure, please make sure your marriage is really not worth saving!<P>And too K. I admire you with all of my heart and soul. Your wife is lucky to have a man so gentle and understanding. You understand that just because she had an affair you can still make your marriage work. And to except her lover's child into your life is wonderful. Such a lucky innocent child! I think you'll make it and I hope your wife is as understanding to your feelings and frustrations as you are to hers! God Bless You!!

Bonnie;<P>Thanks for filling in the story for me. I can see why you wouldn't want your first husband back---he drained your lovebank dry with his actions. My wife's affair ended in a similar manner: the OM found out that she was pregnant with his child, and the last two months of their affair had plenty of the OM "bashing" my abilities as a father for his child. And that was an area that I was always pretty good at (fatherhood), and had made a huge effort at during the affair, so that's where "reality" started to focus, and my wife's lovebank account for the OM dwindled quickly.<P>Thank God too---for a long time, it was as if the OM could do nothing wrong, and I was held accountable for every minor slip-up. Typical dynamics of an affair.<P>I think you have a great story---I'm still wondering if you and your husband "regret" the way that you became involved. I would guess that you would (I think I would, under the circumstances). The fact that your kids don't know about the affair makes me think that this is the way---there's no easy way to explain a good lesson from the "sometimes it's OK to do the wrong thing if the outcome is good".<P>And thanks for the discussion, Bonnie. I truly think that inloveonline and Wonder don't get it---they see that you've been successful and this validates their "have the affair" mentality. But you've done lot's more than just "have an affair"---you took the time to learn the skills and do the hard work that it takes to make a marriage successful. And the proper way is to do the work FIRST, in the marriage you have. Even if it ends in divorce, you'll be better off. And then you can go out and find a more compatible spouse, and work at having a wonderful marriage.<P>Thanks againl, Bonnie. It's a great story.<P>Inloveonline:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have been sitting here reading all of your wonderful advice. Most of it I have tried.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>From where I sit, I don't think you've really tried much of anything. And you haven't LEARNED how to be effective with what you've "tried".<P>This sounds very familiar to something I used to say before I discovered my wife's affair. That I 'tried' to change. Well---once I started counseling with Steve Harley, I found out that my previous attempts were pathetic by comparison, and I really didn't have a clue. With Steve as my coach, I did learn the marriage skills that I needed, through an extremely difficult period in my life. That's why I'm encouraging you (one last time) to do this before you punt your marriage away.<P>Otherwise, the odds are strongly in favor of you being unhappy again. And nothing in your posts speaks to the "maturity" that you would need to be successful in a new relationship---you're basing your decisions solely on emotions, and they're not very tools to make decisions on.

inloveonline-<P>I am new to the forum, so, I cannot say much for the onliine arguments that go on.<P>One thing you will find here is people trying to help, even if they lack the skills to do so diplomatically. Also, what you will find here is people who have very biased opinions about what they have experienced, be it as a Betrayer, or betrayed.<P>You will find people who will side with your thoughts, and those that oppose them completely. Always keep in mind, they are on the outside trying to solve a puzzle from a window, and you hold the ability to open that window or close it, as you see fit. They will only be able to help(effectively) if they know the whole thing. Much like a computer, they can only use the data they are given to formulate an answer.With insufficient data, you get a partial or no answer at all.<P>What YOU have to do is take all of these things in, and decipher what will help you the most. There are basics that Dr.Harley describes. They do work to a certain extent, but keep in mind, they will not always work for everyone. There are always exceptions to every case.<P>Take all of it(advice) in, and make whatever works for you work.<P>When you feel that you cannot extend a final effort, try one more time, and make it an honest effort.<P>Never, ever, give up for what you believe in.<P>------------------<BR>GH0ST(gh0stw0lf@thespark.com)<P><BR>

Bonnie.......<P> Yes I know some cases it does not always work. Sounds like you made it through all the rough bumps with the divorce. I know when we were in therepy spouse and I did tell her that we don't make it that we are both civil people and would end it in a civil way. I in my heart believe thats how it would go. The thereapist even said she saw we were both civil people. I am glad your second marriage is a blessing. And yes I agree make sure you are in love with the other. Well I know am not in love with the spouse thats for sure and have not been for 2 years now. Who knows if would have opened my eyes sooner might have happened that way before. But kept my eyes and mouth shut. But whats done is done now. Cannot go back. I want that in love feeling again and with this person I really in my heart think its there for the both of us. We started as firends and thats where one needs to start. And have grown alot. Like he said we are building our relationship on conversatsion,friendship and desire. And he also told me so when the time comes that we are together we will have a strong foundation already in place. Reading that meant the world to me. Well again Bonnie thanks for all the replys its nice reading there are some wonderful happy endings to a second marriage. My girlfriend or best friend knows everything about my marriage. She sees him blaming me for everything even with the kids. She told me I need to get out of this mess and start all over. And that means with the man I am in love with now. And in time short time I am going to do just that.

Wonder- where have you been?????