I would like your opinion/advice regarding the following issue. Please no flames on infidelity because I already know how wrong it is. One of the biggest things I learn from marriage builders is to make darn sure that I don't make the same mistakes in my second marriage. Anyhow, here goes. I'll be as brief as I can but I want you to get the entire picture. 2nd marriage, both of us have 2 children from previous marriage. We left our ex spouses for each other. Along with this comes a huge amount of guilt and<BR> shame. My husband's ex did not want the divorce and fought it tooth and nail. He never got his own attorney, never fought a thing. Just agreed to her attorney's demands. 2 largest issues is him agreeing to 6 yrs. spousal maintenance for a 5 yr. marriage to a college educated full-time high pd. woman. Reason being she needed a new car so he AGREED to an amount that would cover a car pmt. and insurance for 6 yrs. in a contract that he can no way get out of no matter<BR> what. 2nd, the daycare clause has him paying 30%. The amt. was a set amt. when both kids were in full-time daycare.<BR> Agreement leaves him no room for his amt. to go down as daycare costs go down, so she ultimately will be paying NO<BR> daycare, him all of it and when there is no daycare costs she'll still get 30% every mo. from him. I know ladies, he was<BR> screwed but not having an attorney and guilt does it to you. <P> On to my problem...Ex now has a higher paying job with company car so she has no payments/or insurance. Uses is<BR> spousal payments to take a couple of vacations every year why we watch the kids. Daycare costs are way down due to<BR> kids both now being in school. Husband called County to ask if they could adjust his paycheck deductions to reflect him<BR> paying 30% on new costs. Was told it's a fixed deal and he would have to have HER (the ex) refund him every month or<BR> he's screwed. So, it took me 3 months of bugging my husband to contront her on this. When he did, she blew screaming<BR> that she Deserved it because he left her, left his family etc.... (very emotional even after 3 years). He made a comment<BR> that money wouldn't fix that and left. She thought about it, called the next day and told him to show her his figures and<BR> she'd think about it. That was a month ago and he still hasn't done it. He was also given the name of a good attorney that<BR> might be able to at least change the daycare contract. Hasn't called. I remind him, nag him and he says ya he needs to do<BR> it but doesn't. Now, keep in mind that we live pay check to pay check and his ex has a salary of over 70,000. She's<BR> better off then us by a long shot. So, why does he keep avoiding all of this? Is he a conflict avoider??? Is he still so<BR> consumed by guilt he won't stand up for himself?? Does he himself deep down feel she deserves it???? And lastly, just<BR> how much to I beat the issue in the head? I do not want to be a nag and I know if I push too much I'll push him away and<BR> she's waiting there with open arms, believe me. Yet I'm filled with resentment and anger that we pay her 2,000 per month<BR> which is my entire salary. Please ...all advice is welcome!

Bonnie:<P>Deal with this "by the book". Use the rule of complete honesty to bring up the issue. Discuss it with your husband, using the Policy of Joint Agreement, until you have negotiated a compromise that you both view as "win-win" (the mutually enthusiastic agreement clause). Once you've got the compromise, have a mutually understood plan in place. If he doesn't execute the plan, revisit it.

Bonnie,<P>The only fair suggestion I can see is that your husband request that the unused childcare be put into savings for the kids education. Other than that, I wouldn't force and issues with the ex-wife. If you keep the conflict alive neither your husband or is ex-wife will be able to completely move on, it will just keep the hurt and the guilt strong. Please don't take offense by this, it's just an observation... your choices came with known consequences that just have to be accepted. You can let these consequences cause continued turmoil, or you can accept them and be happy with the choices you've made.<P>Not intended as a flame, the same applies to the consequences of any choices we make in life.<P>

A deal is a deal. It'll be over soon enough (3 years to go, I gather). Besides, how much money is it really, over the course of your lifetime together, now that you have eachother? Maybe try to think of it as the cost of learning. Or what you had to pay to be together.<P>One thing I bet, though, is that if you and your husband ever do split up, he won't make the same mistake twice.

Thanks yy and I didn't feel like you tossed any flames at all. I agree with the other post - a deal is a deal, except because my husband didn't get any attorney he didn't find the hidden text in there. Normal divorce papers state that you pay a certain amt. toward daycare, in this case 30%. Law states that as daycare goes down so does your cost. In his case, her attorney did some shady stuff to keep his amt. from going down so he'll be paying daycare until they are 18. But, who cares because he'd rather be out the money then still living there. The point is that his kids have no clothes at our home, no toys etc...because we can't afford them. They live out of a suitcase 40% of the time and that makes me sick! There mother is taking trips with money that could be used towards them and they eat out 3-4 times per week. They also shop buying new toys on a weekly basis. Just awhile back my husband's daughter told him she loved mom more because she bought her toys and he didn't. So, in a way her bitterness is hurting them. If I thought they were just making it I'd gladly take a second job to give them more but it's sick when she over induldges the kids and he can't even take them to McDonalds.

Bonnie,<P>That's a tough one, seems the ex is so lost in her hurt and bitterness that she's not really putting the kids first. Maybe, instead of fighting over the money issue, appeal to her from the perspective of her kids. Maybe she'll consider sharing some of the toys and clothes so that the kids will be more comfortable? <P>With the rest, you need to find the silver lining to the situation. You have the opportunity to show the kids that money doesn't buy happiness. Be there for them in everyway that you can be (you and your husband both of course). For example, maybe she buys them everything they want, but does she spend the time with them to talk and listen, make up stories, sit on the floor with them and play games, make happy memories? I don't know what to tell you, except that you just have to work with what you've got.<P>Don't know if this helps, I'm certainly no expert.

Dear Bonnie,<BR>seems that ex wife issues are always the same all over the world. I am 38, Brazilian, married for 4 years to a 44 divorced man with two kids (now 10 and 14) and believe me, I DO KNOW what you are talking about. He divorced two years before we met and he had all the deals done when I married him (not by an attorney). Do you want to know our situation now ? Ex wife receives 6,000/month, plus an apartmanet rent, private school for the kids, doctor, insurance, dentist, language classes, and so... and this you will not believe: a nanny, a maid and a driver. Guess what she does: nothing, she does not work and stays ate home all day, drinking.<BR>Here is what worked out for me: be his friend, talk to him, help his kids, they do not deserve to be in the middle of all of this. I realized that when I met him they already exists, so I couldn´t erase his past. When he felt I was with him, he could open his heart and let me know how hard it was for him, how guilt he was about the kids, and when he really felt I was with him he started to share the problem with me on regular basis and ask my opinion. He went by himself to an attorney and re-wrote his agreement always asking what I was thinking about it and putting me first. Two years ago, the little girl - she was 6 - came to me and said: "lets go to the mall and make daddy pay for everything " - probably her mom said that to them, spend daddy´s money (poor creature, that´s the only thing she has in life, isn´t it sad? going do down ?). I started to learn to love those kids and when the little girl said that again I told her that it was very hard for her father to make money to give her things.... and started to show them what means quality time with us, instead of marketing share. Believe me, for him it´s pretty hard be away from the kids and at the same time he loves you, so, he will be a great husband if he, at the same time, is a good father, the only way he - and I think man in general - learned how to compensate his being ausent as a father is with money. Give him some time, don´t push on him, and be his friend, try to undestand his situation. About the toys you mentioned: I gave up to have a baby with him because we can´t afford but it´s Ok we have a great marriage, the kids are my family, and he´s a better man.

Thanks Claudia. You made a lot of sense in what you said. YY you too. What is so weird is that my husband has no problems communicating with me. He has a stressful job and he has no problem pooring out all of his fears, joys etc...regarding this but for some reason he can't talk to his ex. I've heard him on the phone stumble over his words etc.....and by the time she's done with her all of the guilt is piled up.<P>Now getting off the subject just a bit. When he did decide to leave her he cried like no other man I have ever seen. The pain was incredible! He literly bawled and kept saying how much he loved his kids and could not leave them. It did just about kill him to walk away from her and he told her that. He told her how he felt about his kids and how he'd always be there but that he did not and could not love her. He said laying on the couch in the family room before he moved out he'd be frozen with fear thinking he'd have to go back to bed with her someday if he didn't leave. I think when a man was a good husband to you and a great father it's wrong to insist that he stay under every circumstance. She insisted and many on the infidelity board also believe that you should stay with your spouse no matter what. I'm sorry but I can't buy that one. There are many who are in affairs and NOT in love but filling a missing piece of a loving marriage. WHen their affair is in the open they WILLINGLY decide to work on their marriage. I think that is wonderful and encouraged. BUT, if your spouse flat out does not love you and does not want to be there you do nobody any favors by forcing them out of guilt. Just my opinion.

Hmmm...I agree....communication concerning the subject by the book. He's feeling waves of guilt over leaving the kids, and his ex takes full advantage of it--making him feel blamed, guilty, confused and overwhelmed. No wonder it's not a matter he wants to stir up often!<P>On the other hand, this is affecting your pocketbook and, thus, your marriage. Talk to him about it, say...once a week in a "meeting." Sounds like you don't already, but stay away from nagging him about it. Speak calmly and encouragingly with him. State your reasons for wanting him to speed up a change in that payment to ex--tell him you understand how difficult it is for him and how much you appreciate his efforts. Compared to his ex's behavior, you are the balm for his soul, and he will gain strength from your attitude.<P>As to the legal aspect, your H has every right to request a hearing in the divorce/custody action and explain the changes in his ex's salary and the kids now in school requiring less day care. I know, it's another expense to hire an attorney, but in the long run you will be saving money once that unfair payment is reduced. And that payment will probably BE reduced in court. Also, through the court system, your H would have to deal LESS with the ex in one-on-one conversation on the subject than he would if he tries to come to an agreement with her. (She could just be stalling anyway and have no intention of agreeing.)<P>Best wishes.<P>------------------<BR>Laura<P>"I cannot care a little for you. I love you only just enough to love you all the way."~~Rod McKuen<BR>

<p>[This message has been edited by nonplused (edited August 19, 1999).]

Bonnie,<P>I'm getting the sense that there are some deeper unresolved issues involved besides the financial concerns. Issues between you and your H. <P>Your first question, is your H a conflict avoider? Um, I'd answer a probably YES to that one. Did he ever receive any counseling after his separation from his ex? Have the two of you gotten any? <P>How is communication between the two of you? Does he know exactly how you feel about the financial stuff? How does he feel about it? Is this a bigger issue for you or for him?<P>You don't really expect his ex to forfeit any thing she has been awarded in the intial contract, do you? I think the whole financial thing is best left alone. It sounds like it's bothering you a whole lot more than it should. Let it go. Like someone else said, it's not like it's indefinite. The contract will be over in 3 years, so just grit and bear it. Really, that is all you can do. You can't make her forfeit anything, and even if you can take her to court, won't that be dredging up b.s. that is better left alone? Look, you got the man, you have him, can't you just be happy with that?<P>I do not believe all marriages should be saved no matter what. If my H had told me he no longer loved me, I'd have been gone lickety split. No Plan A, no Plan B, straight to Plan C-ya! But, I am curious as to why this is still an issue for you three years into your marriage? It seems that all that should be behind you by now. Are you feeling some insecurities about things? Maybe, like his ex, you have some deep seeded bitterness about the whole thing too.<P>If I were you, I'd move on and let the past go.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

New Woman, your right about the spousal maintenance being done in 3 1/2 years and that isn't the issue about going to court. My husband did agree to that and he's not talking about that to her. It's the daycare issue that will not be done for 12 more years. He contributes 30% toward their daycare costs THREE years ago and instead of being a seperate issue where that amt. goes down as daycare costs go down it's rolled and added to child support so it doesn't go down or away until child support does. He just wants it as a seperate amount from child support.<P>As far as our communication between each other we do extremely well. He knows how I feel and he feels the same way but as the poster above you, she hit the nail right on the head. Every time this issue is approached with his ex it dredges up so many feelings for him he decides to avoid it. After taking everything you all said into consideration, I have decided to bow out of it entirely and let him deal with it on his own. When or if he's ready to approach the subject with her, he'll do it.<P>You are right, it does cause some bitterness in me but I'm starting to get past that. The bitterness stems from watching a man that has bent over backwards to be there for his kids and continue to give and give to them and his ex wife to the point that she just doesn't stop. We also pay for their entire medical/dental insurance, contribute money to a saving account for the kids and pay for half of all of their activities. After that she'll come after him for a $5.00 co-pay and tell him if he doesn't pay up she'll turn it into the county. He'll take the kids while she travels with business and travels for vacations and he'll ask her if their grandma can babysit while he's at work since she lives right by us (saves the 45 minute one way trip) and she refuses. She tells him he is to drive them to their daycare or she'll tell them dad isn't interested in watching them. She tells him he deserves it for leaving his family and he should have thought about that first. It's the beating HE takes for his kids. Bitterness consumes a person and eats them alive. I wish for her sake, his sake and the kids, she'd find some piece and let it go.<P>But, like I already stated, I'm done worrying about it and will step back. It's his demon that he needs to confront on his own. When he's ready to talk more about it I know he'll come to me and I'll listen. Sometimes just listening instead of always offering advice is the best thing a person can do. <P>Thanks guys!

Bonnie,<P><BR>Why in heavens name did your H agree to pay for daycare for 12 YEARS???? I'm sorry, but no lawyer or not, that was very (trying to be kind here) foolish, to say the least. It doesn't take a lawyer to know that children don't need daycare after a certain age, and even so, after they begin going to school fulltime the amount of daycare steadily needed decreases. So, I just don't understand why he would agree to such a thing. That said, I really think that now he, and you, are going to just have suck it up unless you want to drag everything out into a court battle. These are things he should have thought about during the initial divorce. Now it's done. Period.<P>Regarding your H's conflict avoidance, you know, he didn't fall out of love with his ex overnight. What many of us here are saying is that when your marriage starts to go bad, when resentments start to pile up, YOU GOTTA SPEAK UP!! It sounds like your H didn't, and instead he started an affair with you. After a certain amount of time, of course he no longer loved his wife because he was in love with you. The time to fix things with his wife was BEFORE another person came into the picture. This is his failure, no way around that. And I hope he has learned that this is no way to deal with problems. <P>I wish you the best of luck! Try to be happy with your situation.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

New Woman it's weird when you look over divorce papers. Here are two examples:<P>One, my divorce papers state at the time of divorce all of our bills, debts. etc.... Of course, daycare costs were listed. In the end it is decides that I am responsible for 70% of the costs, my ex 30%. It words it by saying that he is responsible for 30% of the current daycare costs. So, as my costs go down so do my ex's. Fair.<P>My husband's lists the same things and the daycare costs. Then it goes deeper and says something like daycare costs are 10,000 per year and he is responsible for 30% which is 3,000.00 per year. So, in looking it over it looked like mine. 30% on the current daycare costs. But, her attorney left that part out so he pays 3,000.00 out of his paychecks for daycare period. The only way he can change this is to go to court. After the daycare amt. was figured they took his child support obligation (which in our state is 30% of your income) and added that, then added the spousal coming up with only one grand total to be deducted each month. Now, he can go to court and have the daycare thing changed but they will open the entire package and if his income has went up at all they'll add more to child support. So, it's a catch 22 and I guess not really worth it. The kids can just continue to live out of a suitcase when they visit and she can continue with her vacations.

I am sorry but two things are apparent here as I read this. #1...husband decided to break up his family and #2 husband wasn't very smart when he broke up his family. Therefore, husband AND new wife need to deal with the consequences.<P>Your job as the wife is to support the decisions HE made so that he could be with you. Nagging is going to drive him away.