As a male I can say that the sensation not just the fantasy is completely different. It amazes me however, that we consider a man's visually oriented fanatsy somehow misplaced. Years ago in college a group of us guys found a Harlequin or some similar book left lying around by a girl who always spoke out against playboy etc... As guys we were shocked when we read what was in one of those books and you know words and roamnce stoies can be pornographic too. In all honesty you shouldn't feel like you're competing. If I see a pornographic mag yes as a male I am aroused, but these days I see my wife's face on every single one. I always compare and she always wins. Though she'd never believe that one ;-) But seriously, it is her intimacy and her physical passion I want. Masturbation is just a release it has no passion or intimacy. But you know heck sometimes it does lead to a more intense orgasm. But if my wife caught me I would only want her to take over. (But maybe not intercourse?) To me asking for oral sex is the highest compliement to my wife. Think about the trust issue ouch!<BR>Try dancing for him and flirting to his eyes. And remember a women's sexiest feature is her smile especially when she's with her husband.<BR>

Yes, masturbating is different and is addictive. Does the fact that it is different make it right to do either in marriage or not???<P>Personally I am beginning to believe that all sex should be saved for marriage (I never had any sexual instruction or talk with my parents or any spiritual person ever) otherwise you can really mess up what your marriage will be like in the future. I know from where I speak.<P>Check out what Dr. Harley says from Love Busters in my post at: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/000194.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/000194.html</A> In marriage, sex should be shared.<P>Hugz and prayers, Thoughtful<P>------------------<BR>To save your marriage use Dr. Harley's methods at <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/</A> <BR>

I knew this would open up a whole new discussion. Actually, the point of my statements is that masturbation is sexual and all and usually involves fantasy. i read the comments Dr. Harley made. The examples he gives are definite extremes 1o times a day!!! There is a lot more going on there than sex and that many public perviosions involve masturbation and genital exposure is true. Those are very different. My real point was that men may and usually do find someform of sexual release in masturbation. The same behavior has been obversed in all male mammals. I'm not saying we're animals but some of the things we find ourselves doing are a result of the fact that humans are still mammals and part of the animal kingdom. Anyway, my real point is much the same as Dr. Harley's. masturbation doesn't relieve the emotional need for intimacy. And that is the big difference. When the intimacy is withheld their is a real problem and masturbation can never take away that pain. I know.<BR>Is masturbation wrong in or out of marriage? If it takes away from any persons pursuit and fulfillment of real intimacy of course. But for most men it doesn't. <BR>Since this is a marriage forum I won't go into whether or not all sex should be kept only in marriage. Ultimately its today that matters not what a couple did before or after. Although I will say that based on anecdotes and the comments of many women, too many women are giving away too much before marriage and too many guys are using sex as a test for marriage. that backfires when the girl does stuff to attract the guy and then withhods or refuses the same stuff after marriage. Then guys do stupid things to like pretend to like shopping ;-) Oh well Men are from Mars and women are from Venus.

Kam,<BR>I have a question that has been asked a million times. How often do men in general fantasize about another woman other than their wife when recieving oral sex / sex with their spouse? Speaking for myself...I dont seem to fantasize at all during either of the forementioned. Perhaps I should start Just curious<BR>ruby

Hi KAM,<P>You wrote:<BR>"Is masturbation wrong in or out of marriage? If it takes away from any persons pursuit and fulfillment of real intimacy of course. But for most men it doesn't. "<P>And just what source are you using to say that for most men it doesn't? Do you know any facts? I do. I know that sexual addiction is climbing in this country, or maybe it is just coming out of the closet.<P>What we need to ask is why does someone use masturbation?<P>Is it to:<BR>decrease stress<BR>feel loved<BR>do something I enjoy because it feels good<P>And then is there something that would fulfill any of those things more fully (not easier or cleaner or faster but more fully in respect to all of our needs in general)?<P>And then how can mast. help a marriage???<P>And if people would communicate openly and honestly they would be able to discuss their needs and find mutual solutions to them. Marriage Builders is all about this - it works.<P>Hugz and prayers, Thoughtful<BR><P>------------------<BR>To save your marriage use Dr. Harley's methods at <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/</A> <BR>

thoughful,<BR>you're looking for facts hmm read up in most pychology generals and studies. Unless you wish to return to the days of bells on young boys beds and tales of men going blind. <BR>Is sexual addiction on the rise? what is your source on that??Sexual frustration maybe and from looking at most posts it appears that there's a lot of sexual power play going on in marriage. I'm not saying our culture isn't oversexed but we aren't necessarily sex addicted. hmm even better homes and gardens released a study saying its readers would prefer money over sex. <BR>My main point and i'll say it again is that at root it is all about intimacy. Men crave that far more than we are usually credited with. <BR>As for how M. it can help a marriage? That would depend on the marriage and the couple. If it interers with intimacy between the couple its a problem. But if it doesn't?? Hmmm how about wet dreams are they immoral? Afterall, some men have considerable problems in that area too.<BR>Re; to ruby I have no idea what's going on in most people heads. Personally from most of the guys I know fantasy is not usually first on their mind at those times or in bed.That usually comes earlier ;-)<BR>One of the silliest things I ever heard was a priest claim that math is pure because you can't count during sex. Then , I met a guy, a real jerk, who boasted that he would do multiplication tables to help himself last longer. He usually had sex with two or more girls a week. I always wondered if he had ever talked to that priest ;-)