My husband has been hanging out with a woman from work. He says they're just friends, but it really bothers me. They confide with eachother and go out for dinner. I trust him that there's nothing physical going on, but it still hurts me. I don't have a problem with him having female friends, but going out with her alone bothers me and the fact that they confide in eachother. He said that she needs someone to listen to and she trusts him. I think that she needs to find a female friend that she can trust. She also dates men that are just plain bad. My husband says that he is helping her find a good guy also.<P>He refuses to stop hanging out with her unless I can tell him why it's wrong. But all I can think of is it's immoral, putting our marriage in danger, and hurts me terribly. Am I being overly jealous and emotional? I feel as if maybe he's right and it should not bother me because I do trust him. I can’t just see something that’s right hurting so much. We’ve nearly divorced over this. He decided that he wants to work it out, but he won’t stop being alone with. her. Really that’s the only thing I’ve really asked of him. Just to not be alone with other women. He wants Biblical proof that it’s wrong.<P>I know that I have been caught up with our two little girls for the past 3 years. But now the youngest is old enough to be left with grandma and grandpa overnight and we can get away for overnight trips. When we do get away he watches TV and I stare out the window. <P>If you can help I’d really appreciate it. <P>Thank you <BR>Sarah<P><BR>

I think your husband is acting totally inappropriately. He should have made an introduction if he hasnt already, and you should be asked to go along on their dinners and after work pow wows.<BR>Have you told him that you'd like to meet her? My h has pulled some crap like this and it took him awhile to realize the discomfort the situation caused me...I always ask him to think about how it would make him feel if the shoe was on the other foot. I would nip this in the bud.<P>regards,<P>ruby

saraheliza,<P>Sorry, there's no biblical reference that I can think of. However, I suggest that you order the book "Lovebusters" from this site. He's being disrespectful of your feelings, and his relationship is a selfish demand. Now---the problem is that you to "demand" that he give it up is wrong as well. You need to learn about the Policy of Joint Agreement and negotiation to resolve this issue with a "win-win" situation. That's convered in detail in Harley's book "Give and Take".<P>Opposite-sex friendships, especially when they're "exclusive" (with one person and "excluding" the other spouse) are very dangerous for a marriage. One of the most common ways that affairs start is for two (opposite sex) people who are both dissatisfied with their marriages to start discussing these issues with each other. Understanding and "friendship" quickly lead to "love" and an affair. It's the way my wife's affair started. I'd bet that this is the way over half the affairs on the "infidelity" board start.<P>What you can do about it (other than to voice your objection without the use of lovebusters), is to find out what needs you aren't filling in the marriage that would lead him to have this friendship (and feel this way), and start meeting those needs. The book "His Needs/Her Needs" covers these issues in detail (Give and Take also covers it, not as much detail). It's pretty clear that this relationship fills his needs (probably for admiration and attention)---and it's not a "thoughtless" thing that he's doing, or he wouldn't be so hung up on you asking him to stop. Although it might not seem fair, the most effective thing you can do is to "love" your husband back to you.

I hear your pain, sistah.<P>Read my profile; read my postings in the Infidelity forum.<P>I've been dealing with it for a year, with no end in sight. Last week I wrote H a 2-page, calm, rational letter explaining why his friendship affects me the way it does. <P>He still doesn't get it.<P>I don't know what else I can do, except leave (which I don't want to do ) or stop caring.<P>I have been in "nondisclosure Plan A" since March. Had good results for a while, but with no deposits in my love bank, it gets harder and harder every day.<P>He is clueless. I feel like I'm standing in the middle of a room screaming and he doesn't even hear.<P>Now, in fairness, it was getting better for a while. As long as he liked his job, it was fine. Then he started being afraid for his job security (a big lovebuster for me) and that emptied my tank to the point that the mere MENTION of her scrapes the bottom of the barrel, and I am left with an empty love bank.<P>No, you are not being jealous and overemotional. Your husband is dating another woman and not including you. He is having an emotional affair in that his need for companionship is being met outside the marriage. He may not see it that way, but that's what it is. Is he secretive? Mine is, and that makes it worse.<P>Don't let the word "affair" frighten you. But that's what it is. You CAN do something, however.<P>If he wants friendship with this woman, he should at least include you in the friendship. An unwillingness to do that may not mean there's something more, but it sure does mean that he's enjoying jerking your chain.<P>There are clearly some problems in your marriage. He might not be having a physical affair, but the fact that when you go away together, you are silent indicates to me a buildup of problems that you've been unaware of over time.<P>The good news is that there ARE things you can do. Does your H communicate his needs? If he communicates well, that helps. If he doesn't, do you know the things that make him feel good? If so, do them. For example, my H likes a lot of attention. Backrubs, hugs, that sort of thing. Recreational needs are important to him also...so I started planning little things we could do together -- a hike in the woods, go out to brunch, etc.<P>If the kids can be left with a sitter or at grandma's for a few hours, try to schedule some SMALL outings that he enjoys. Even if you don't enjoy them, do them anyway. I'm not nuts about waking up at 5 AM on a Sunday for a hike either, but H enjoys it so much, it's worth it. You may find yourself enjoying it more than you think. Bring yourselves together in small doses at first, rather than marathon weekends.<P>The vaughan-vaughan.com site has a question on opposite-sex friends and emotional attachments outside the marriage, and what it says there constitutes words to live by: that only by filling the spouse's needs within the marriage can you lessen the NEED for the outside attachment.<P>I also recommend a book called HOW ONE OF YOU CAN BRING BOTH OF YOU TOGETHER, by Susan Page. You can get it at amazon.com, barnesandnoble.com, or buy.com.<P>I am in exactly the same boat as you, so I'm happy to help, compare notes, etc. My success has been mixed, in that she is still in the picture because she is a vendor for the company my H now works for (she helped get him the job). The good news is that he's unhappy where he is and is looking for another job, at which point hopefully it will dissipate a bit.<P>If you'd like private E-mail, please post your address and I'd be happy to correspond.

This may be a first but I am her husband... I hope it doesn't bother her, but I stumbled across this while looking for help on the internet myself...<P>I don't know if answering my wives message directly would do any good... I am not someone to point fingers or say this or that, I am not here to win a battle or a war... I want to save the marriage (As I told my W, I have never quit on anything important to me and I am not going to start now.).<P>I kind of feel uncomfortable doing this because I don't know if my wife is going to be mad at me for reading her original post or not, and I don’t like talking about problems with other people.<P>First things first, yes, my wife was pretty accurate in what she said. I do have a particular female friend at work that I feel comfortable talking to about things. She didn't state this but, yes, she is attractive and yes, she is my age (The only person at work my age or within 10 yrs of it)... BUT, and here comes the BUT... I did agree to stop spending time alone with her until she feels more comfortable with it or she can prove that I am biblically wrong. Either way she is getting what she wants. Even with this the arguing over the individual hasn't stopped (I will get into this later).<P>Next, yes I sat there and watched T.V. and she starred out the window (watching a pretty good lighting show), while we were waiting for a male co-worker of mind to decide if he was going to join us. I was away on business and my wife came down and joined me for a night.<P>Ok, I have answered that... I'll answer other peoples questions...<P>I didn't tell my wife once when we went to dinner and that was a mistake, not to get into too much detail, but... I was taking a flight out of town (once again for work), and I didn't know I was leaving until that morning. I asked my wife to pack my bags and hurry down because I had a flight around around 5:30 (I don't remember the exact time). Well after talking to her I had them push the flight back because I didn't want to fight through traffic so I asked this female friend if she wanted to go to dinner. Now for the weird part, my Cell phone called my wife (don't know how.) and she ended up hearing the entire conversation. Not much there, I even talked about hooking her up with a friend of ours. Ok, I guess that was detail enough...<P>The other day (2-3 weeks ago), my friend needed to talk about work, goals, and other things... She had just had a conversation with a couple managers at work on issues at the workplace and her future with the company and was upset... I told her that we could have dinner and promptly told my wife about it on the drive home (my wife was upset and the dinner never materialized). My wife asked if she could come and I didn't feel like my friend would be comfortable talking about it with her there. (I know, people will jump all over that line)<P>Now my wife and her have meet and hit it off (In my mind), I have encouraged my wife to spend time together and suggested that they could work out, and do girls nights out (my wife really needs to get out with other women more.) and both my friend and my Wife seem interested.<P>Ok, let’s see... Oh, BTW: I don't read, never have...<P>Oh, we have planned Friday night dates, and done one already... But we are buying a house at the end of the month and money is tight...<P>Ok, let’s get back to the revolving argument from above... From here on out you will see me stretching to read my wife because she doesn't express her emotions and feeling very well (That isn't meant as an insult). The argument about my friend has continued even after I have agreed not to see her alone. I do not know what this means other then something(s) else is bothering her and she just can't express them or put her finger on them so she is using this issue to project her feelings. I do the same thing with her "housewife duties" (They bother me but I use it as a focus point for out issues.).<P>I don't like counselors (and with the house can’t afford one right now.).<P>BTW: For those of you who think that I am having an "emotional affair", I have encouraged my friend to move and find a new job. She has a lot of signs telling her that she shouldn't be where she is. As with all my friends Male and Female (I don’t see Male and Female in friendship though, to me they are friends) I want the best for them.<BR>

OK, jsmacy, maybe I'm in a good position to shed some light on this, or as much light as someone not living in your W's head, but in a similar situation, can do.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I did agree to stop spending time alone with her until she feels more comfortable with it or she can prove that I am biblically wrong. Either way she is getting what she wants. Even with this the arguing over the individual hasn't stopped<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Are you sure you're not my H? <P>When I've talked to my H about how I feel, he's always gotten defensive. I suppose if I'd insisted, he would have ended contact with his friend -- and then made damn sure I never forgot about it for the rest of my life.<P>I suspect your W probably has these traits in common with me: She probably has somewhat low self-esteem, and figures that you would leave at the drop of a hat for the first attractive woman that comes along. This may not be triggered by anything you did, it probably pre-dates you. She also obviously has trouble communicating. She's a conflict avoider, probably because she hates it when you're angry with her. <P>So she's between a rock and a hard place. She doesn't want to make this demand on you, because she knows you will be angry or resentful. But all she knows about this is that IT FEELS WRONG. Maybe it's her low self-esteem talking, maybe not. But IT FEELS WRONG.<P>saraheliza, am I getting close to the mark here? Help me out.<P>The cell phone/dinner thing...sounds a tad fishy, but OK. Still...these things are a minefield.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The other day (2-3 weeks ago), my friend needed to talk about work, goals, and other things... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And you were the ONLY person she could talk to? Just asking.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She had just had a conversation with a couple managers at work on issues at<BR> the workplace and her future with the company and was upset...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>...and wanted you to be her Knight in Shining Armor and make it all go away.<P>Yeah, I know what you're thinking. But still. Anyway, let's assume that this is all just cool, and you ARE the only person she can talk to. Let's move on:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I told her that we could have dinner<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why did this have to be discussed over dinner? See what I'm getting at? Dinner can be a long, drawn-out evening, a bottle of wine, meaningful looks, etc. Why not, say, a half hour at a coffee bar?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> and promptly told my wife about it on the drive home (my wife was upset and the dinner never materialized). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't blame her. As far as she's concerned, you asked another woman out to dinner when you and SHE never go.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My wife asked if she could come and I didn't feel like my friend would be comfortable talking about it with her there. (I know, people will jump all over that line)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yup. You're right. In my H's last job, he had a NUMBER of female co-worker/friends, and over time, I have had concerns about almost all of them...all of which were quickly alleviated...except this one.<P>One night, another of his co-worker friends called. He'd come home exhausted and gone right to bed. She was distraught, threatening to quit, etc., etc. He tells her he's going to pick her up and they're going out for drinks. He bounds out of bed, pulls on his clothes, then realizes what he's doing and says to me, "Would you like to come?" Obviously, he'd realized how bad it looked that he was too tired to spend the evening with his wife but not too tired to spend the evening drinking with another woman. I said yes, we went to pick her up, and after that, I was part of their friendship. When she calls, she talks to me, she gives me a hug when she comes over, and everything's hunky dory.<P>The woman with whom I have the problem, however, treats me as if I don't exist; as if I should be removed as quickly as possible.<P>See the difference? It's the inclusion factor. Who knows, maybe your W could have given your friend some insights from a woman's POV?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now my wife and her have meet and hit it off (In my mind), I have encouraged my<BR> wife to spend time together and suggested that they could work out, and do girls<BR> nights out (my wife really needs to get out with other women more.) and both my<BR> friend and my Wife seem interested.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But the damage is done, sir. You've already set up a level of discomfort in your W by your exclusionary tactics in this friendship. I'm not surprised she isn't comfortable with befriending this woman.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh, we have planned Friday night dates, and done one already... But we are buying a house at the end of the month and money is tight...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Then find things to do that aren't expensive. Get coupons for McDonalds. Go to the cheap show at the movies on Saturdays. Take a hike in the woods. Go to the mall and window shop. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>you will see me stretching to read my wife because she doesn't express her emotions and feeling very well <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I addressed this above. Maybe she fears your anger and defensiveness about it.<P>Look, fella, I don't claim to have a summerhome in anyone else's head. But I am in a similar situation, and just figured maybe I could give you some insights. Your W is not me and I am not her...but I'll bet we think similarly about this.<P>Hope this is helpful.

no stephen, i am not mad at you. <P>'dazed and confused' hit the nail on the head as did 'k' ;].<P>affairs don't usually start with two people going out looking for sex. they start with two people befriending eachother, confiding with eachother and the relationship slowly growing too close. <P>i do avoid conflict, getting better. but i hate conflict. i will compromise to a tenth of a degree, if not more. if someone says 11 and i want 0, i say 5.5. i don't like people to disagree. i like peace. <P>the woman and i have gotten along. but there is a level of discomfort and i sense it on her part too. we have a lot of the same interests. i love to draw, but have had no formal training in it and she has, so she could help me there. i want to do something fun in the girls room and would love it if she helped me. but at the same time i feel uncomfortable. to stephen's credit, he does work 45 minutes away, so me getting together with her is difficult, but we will be moving soon. also with him working 45 minutes away, we never see him anyway and taking her or anyone else out just takes away from our time as a family.<P>with me looking for a job and her possibly needing one, i think it would be great if all of us got together. stephen's good with resumes and job hints and i could use the help too. it bothers me that i can't go with them. i don't think that people should tell a spouse something that they wouldn't want the other spouse to hear. but that's just me.<BR>

jsmacy, saraheliza:<P>I think you would benefit from joint counseling using MarriageBuilder's phone counseling with Steve Harley. I know that counseling doesn't fit into "the budget", but the bottom line is that you should both ask yourself how much money it's worth to be extraordinarily happy with each other in a marriage. Balance that with the cost of divorce. If you did 20 sessions with Steve, you'd be out $1500. Pretty cheap, in comparison.<P>jsmacy, I've never been fond of therapists. I think a lot of them are full of crap. Steve isn't. Almost everyone I know who has used him (over a dozen) finds him extremely effective. <P>I think you would also benefit from reading some books. From this website I'd recommend Give and Take, Lovebusting, and His Needs/Her Needs in that order. D&C's suggestion is also very good---I think you'd benefit from a small, easy to read book called "Communication Miracles for Couples" <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573240834/qid%3D936992960/002-9927787-1025216" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573240834/qid%3D936992960/002-9927787-1025216</A> . <P>jsmacy, you said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I want to save the marriage (As I told my W, I have never quit on anything important to me and I am not going to start now.).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's good, but you'll need to shed some of the inflexibility that you're exhibiting and try some of this stuff. Try reading a bit---maybe with your wife. If you read with an open mind, you may find that solutions to these issues are right in front of you. Try a few sessions with counseling as an experiment---you don't like it, try something different. <P>It sounds like the two of you have let "life" get in the way of having a great marriage. Having kids. Buying a new house. Career. All those things are important, but none of them are as important as your marriage. With a great marriage, you'll find that everything else comes easier.

I love the way women think...<P>D&C yes and no, I wasn't the only person that she could talk to, BUT... I know the situation because I am the only person that works at the same company, and I really don't like the traits of some of the other people she talks to (including Drugs).<P>I don't understand the Dinner vs. Coffee thing... What is the difference, if the issue here is a "date" then no matter where I go I end up "on a date". If the being alone with her isn't the issue then what is (and how does coffee make it different then dinner?)?<P>They almost went out last friday night but my friend had to get messured for a bridesmaid dress and my wifes other friend couldn't find a baby sitter (even though I offered).<P>But here is my problem... I have agreed to what she wants, yet still I don't understand why were are still on this issue... Can someone please explain it to me????? My only thought is that it is a sounding board for her...<P>Hi Honey... :-P hahaha your it...<P>Ops put it in a new Thread first...

k, <P>i would like to at least go talk to our ss teacher or pastor, although i'd prefer our ss teacher. stephen's right about our financial situation right now. getting out of our apt will go a long way to us being happier. we get no sun, i didn't realize how important natural light is till we moved here. although i do agree with your point about it saving us a lot in the long run. our ss teacher or pastor would be free and i know that they have our well being at heart. <P>i almost bought one of steve's books, i don't remember why i didn't. i may go back and get it. i don't remember what book it was...<P>

My H has an on-going EA with his ex-g/f...I can understand your situation and I just wanted to pop in here and warn you that my priest and my counselor said there was nothing wrong with my H dating his ex-g/f. OMG!!! <P>You might be better off calling Mr. Harley. Good luck.

If your Sunday School teacher or your pastor are trained, qualified marriage counselors (with a successful track record), I think the plan will work fine. But Steve is trained to do this, and the investment in your marriage will be well worth it, in the long run.<P>Make a compromise. Order "Give and Take" from the website (or your bookstore). Both read it and discuss it---that'll give you a head start if you decide to do counseling, and you may be able to apply the information yourself.

Hi Stephen and Saraheliza<BR>I may be about to open up a whole can o'worms with a few Bible references you might be interested in. None of them say "Thou shalt not have friends of the opposite sex", but here goes:<BR>EPH 5:3-4 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of<BR>any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor<BR>should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather<BR>thanksgiving.<P>EPH 5:25-33 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave<BR>himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the<BR>word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any<BR>other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their<BR>wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever<BR>hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church - - for we<BR>are members of His body. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be<BR>united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery - - but I<BR>am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his<BR>wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.<P>MT 5:27-28 You have heard that it was said “Do not commit adultery”. But I tell you<BR>that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in<BR>his heart.<P>IS 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, As<BR>the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my<BR>thoughts than your thoughts.<P>Besides these references, you might want to do some research into "soul ties". Those things that bind us emotionally and spiritually (sometimes negatively) to other people. You have already created a soul tie with this woman by appearing to be her knight in shining armor as D&C mentioned earlier. <BR>I don't disagree with you that friends can be male or female but I do disagree with you that you should be able to carry on a relationship with another woman knowing full well that your wife is not comfortable with it.<BR>I know this is pretty long, but here's how I handled my situation with a male friend.<BR>My best friend for the last 10 years (a man I worked with who passed away in January, and I miss him terribly. He died unexpectedly at age 48). His wife and my husband also work at the same (big)place but he and I were friends before either of us married. He was big brother/uncle/knight/bug killer all rolled into one. He and his wife married a couple of years before me and my husband and when they became serious, lots of people used to make little remarks to her about me and him. When someone finally brought it to my attention, I was shocked!! ". . .but we are just FRIENDS", I squeaked. We remained the best of friends, but I made extra sure that nobody would ever be able to say anything to his wife (before or after they got married) that would cause her to be uncomfortable. Same way he handled our friendship with my husband. Oh, by the way, we NEVER met outside work unless there were other people around (including my husband and his wife). Not because we were worried that we couldn't be together alone, but out of respect for our spouses. Appearance is everything. When he was in the hospital before he died, he was in a coma. He didn't know anyone, but I went to the hospital every day to sit with his wife and she would take me back to his ICU room and ask me to call him by the nickname I had given him 10 years ago. She said that he might respond if he heard it. Sorry to say that he didn't. She and I still try to see each other every day at work and we have dinner together a couple times a month. Again, I'm sorry this is so long, but please Stephen, PLEASE consider your wife's feelings in this matter.

saraheliza, i said some of the same things just before my friendship erupted into an affair. my w asked me if i was physically attracted to ow, i answered honestly that i wasn't. i assured her there was nothing between us and didn't think there was. and then there was a little frindly kiss and before i knew it, i was in love. it's over now and we're well into recovery. i suspect your h, inspite of what he may say, is about to have to have an affair. he's playing with fire and doesn't know it. i have some wonderful memories and i'm glad for that. they're not worth what it cost me.

jsmacy:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>D&C yes and no, I wasn't the only person that she could talk to, BUT... I know the situation because I am the only person that works at the same company,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK, this part is legit...but read on...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> and I really don't like the traits of some of the other people she talks to (including Drugs).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So what? You don't like the traits of some of her confidants? What's it to ya? Oh. You "care about her." See? Knight in shining armor. Would you care as much if it was some sort of self-destructive friendships your WIFE had?<P>Get it? Hello?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't understand the Dinner vs. Coffee thing... What is the difference, if the issue here is a "date" then no matter where I go I end up "on a date". If the being alone with her isn't the issue then what is (and how does coffee make it different then dinner?)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>=Sigh=. Yes, folks, definitive proof that men and women DO live on different planets. The difference is that coffee is short, closed-ended, casual, and does not involve liquor. Dinner is open-ended in terms of time, may involve "romantic" things like candlelight and a bottle of wine.<P>I used to date through personal ads, and when I did, a first "meeting", "get-acquainted" date was always coffee, a quick drink, something like that. Why? Because it was casual, and if it wasn't going to work, it wasn't the commitment of an evening. Again...CASUAL.<P>Can anyone help me out here with this one? It's sort of an "I know a date when I see it" kind of thing.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But here is my problem... I have agreed to what she wants, yet still I don't understand why were are still on this issue... Can someone please explain it to me????? My only thought is that it is a<BR> sounding board for her...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You sound like my H: "I thought we were done with this months ago." No, we're not. And you're not either. Why? Because the climate of lying and deceit has already been set, that's why. How does she know you've agreed? How does she know that you're not still seeing this "friend" on the sly and just not telling her -- "to protect her"?<P>It's entirely possible that I've been agonizing for the last nine months over just a very friendly, huggy, amiable woman who just happens to like to be friends with married men. Yah, right. And I am the queen of Rumania. Or maybe she's just an equal-opportunity predator, who doesn't care which married man she's chasing, as long as he's married. All I know is that my H has LIED to me about seeing her, and that means that he will LIE to me again if it maintains peace in the house.<P>Now, let's look at the other side. My therapist feels I'm angry at him about not meeting many of my needs (sex, attention, affection, feeling of security), and that I'm just using her as the focal point because I'm afraid to face what my anger at him might mean in terms of what I should do with my life. That's also possible. Maybe it's the same for your W.<P>OK, guys, over to you.

Ok, Ok.... Proverbs also has a number of references to the "adulteress woman." My W made a point to point it out durring Sunday School this weekend... I am not trying to equate the "adulteress woman" with my friend and I hope that everyone else isn't jumping to conclusions and considering her that. I really consider this arguement worthless at this point because I have agreed to what my W has asked for, so I don't feel a need to continue down this specific arguement.<P>I have agreed not to see her alone (because my wife isn't comfertable with it), why does this arguement keep coming up? Maybe I should consider myself Daised and Confussed...<P>Ok, this is what I am looking for... We (as in everyone talking in this group and my wife) continue to bring up this discussion/arguement that has passed, I have stated that I will not see this woman alone because my wife isn't comfertable with it. Now how do we go on from there?<P>Is it that she does not feel "Not seeing her alone" is good enough, or is it just a issue to project other feelings/problems from?

boy, d and c, sometimes i think you're living in my head. although i don't think i hate her, like stephen claims. i do see the coffee thing as a date. i don't mind that he goes out with a bunch of people from work, but alone gets to me. <P>yes, he does care for her, he'd say as a friend, but i see more. if she doesn't have anything to do, he'll try to set something up, like inviting her to spend time with us when we have time alone, she has said 'no'. he seems to think she's perfect and to be honest, i don't know how i can compare to her. i've had 2 kids and my body just isn't the same. i am not as smart as her, i am a sahm and not as helpless apparently. i have wondered about what he would do if i had a bad relationship. he'd probably just leave me to my own defenses and tell me, 'i trust your judgement'. or like you said last night, 'they all have real jobs' when i asked you why you can give other people your sympathy.<P>and stephen, you have not said that you won't go out with her alone period. you said until i can accept it, or if i take too long to accept it. you've also made comments about how you should have never told me. i trust you and that's why i feel that you arent' going and sneaking time alone with her.<P>btw, you weren't listening that much during ss or you would have realized that the 'adultress woman' can be anyone other than your wife. so you do need to watch your feelings for her. i wish i had a mirror when we went to the party so that you could see how you look at her. you two do flirt and maybe it is just your personality, but you need to watch yourself around her. it just takes a hug...<p>[This message has been edited by saraheliza (edited September 13, 1999).]

Stephen and Sarah,<BR>My first question is for Stephen - You wouldn't happen to be your friend's boss or maybe in a management position (for lack of a better term "outranking" her) at work would you? <BR>Sarah - I'm probably not the only person who is going to tell you that just because you aren't employed outside the home doesn't mean that you don't work. You have, in my opinion, the most important job you could possibly have. Raising your 2 children and taking care of your family/home are more rewarding than anything you could do out in the workplace.<BR>As far as you "not being able to compare to her" and not being "as smart as her". Wonder who gave you those ideas?? You have your own value and self-worth that has nothing to do with your husband. Read Proverbs 31:10-31. <BR>For you, Stephen - Proverbs 31:30-31 says:<BR>Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.<BR>Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.<BR>Peace be with you, Sarah.<BR>Janice

Hey, stephen and saraheliza, maybe "referee-ing" you guys will help me too.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>boy, d and c, sometimes i think you're living in my head<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nope....just in a similar situation. Don't get spooked. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>i don't mind that he goes out with a bunch of people from work, but alone gets to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK, then, why? Because it seems like a "date"? Suppose he had asked you to accompany him from the beginning. Would you still feel this way? The reason I ask is that I used to have male friends at work many years ago, and sometimes we'd go out for dinner after work. I always invited my H to go along, I always told him where I was going and who I was going with and what time I'd be home. Not once did he give me any indication that it bothered him. Sometimes I think that's why he does what he does now -- to get back at me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>yes, he does care for her, he'd say as a friend, but i see more. if she doesn't have anything to do, he'll try to set something up, like inviting her to spend time with us when we have time alone, she has said <BR>'no'.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mine does this too...and she says YES. At least this woman seems to have a sense of sensitivity to you and what's appropriate. My H's "friend" seems to collect married men.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>he seems to think she's perfect<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What makes you say that?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>i don't know how i can compare to<BR> her<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK...now we're starting to see something. You think you're inadequate because you think you don't look as good because you've had kids, or because you are a SAHM. Are you projecting your own feelings of inadequacy onto your H? Maybe you feel unworthy but he doesn't see it that way?<P>I'm grappling with this myself now. My H's friend is only a few years younger, but she's thinner, very flirtatious, more successful, etc. I'm trying to sort out how much of my perception is real and how much is my baggage. Perhaps you need some counseling to sort out your self-esteem issues. I know these worries FEEL real, maybe they're not.<P>ALSO...I know I have a lot of anger at my H for not meeting my needs (one of them being respect for my feelings about his friend) and my therapist thinks I'm projecting it onto him and her.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>like you said last night, 'they all have real jobs' when i asked you why you can give other people your sympathy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ouch! That hurts, doesn't it? But 10 bucks says he doesn't mean anything by it. This is what I call a "Does this make me look fat?" question. Whatever answer your guy gives will be wrong. Way back when I first expressed concern about H's friend calling him, I said, "You know, she's after you." He said, "Well, she can't have me." So, of course I asked the DTMMLF question: "But what if I wasn't here?" He answered, "That'd be different. I'd probably be with her.<P>Ouch! That hurt. Now, it's entirely possible that he MEANT, "Yeah, she's nice, we get along, and if you weren't here and she was around, it'd be easy, I'd probably get together with her. But what I HEARD was "If I wasn't stuck with you I could be with her."<P>So what's the real story? OK, jcmacy, now you can enlighten ME? What did he mean? And what did YOU mean about "real job"?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>and stephen, you have not said that you won't go out with her alone period. you said until i can accept it, or if i take too long to accept it. you've also made comments about how you should have never told me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, and my H has offered to quit his job (where he has to talk to her) too...but has made it very clear that he'll resent me the rest of his life if I make him...so here I am.<P>jcmacy, it's the LIES and DECEIT and the climate of SECRECY that create these situations. I was never jealous of my H before all this.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> i wish i had a mirror when we went to the party so that you could see how you look at her. you two do flirt and maybe it is just your personality, but you need to watch yourself around her. it just takes a hug...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oy...you guys too? Yeah...the significant looks, the goo-goo eyes, the private jokes. Been there, done that, seen that, bought the T-shirt, the bobbin' head doll, the coffee mug and the pencil. Yeah, and maybe it's just HER personality too, but it pisses me off when my H and some other woman are behaving as though they have this little territory in the world that they share -- and that doesn't include me.<P>jcmacy, if what your W says is true (and I suspect that it is, because it's just too similar to my situation), I think perhaps you're not mean, or cruel, or even trying to get your wife's goat. But you're clueless. She's standing here screaming what she feels and you just don't hear her. You don't want to. Granted, a certain amount of this is her own self-image problems. When was the last time you told her she was special? Can you fill that big gaping hole inside? No...only she can do that. But you CAN help.<P>I have no answers...if I did, I wouldn't be posting here, that's for sure. But maybe my insights help.<P>

actually, he has told me that she's the smartest person he knows and she's intellectually stimulating. <P>he's also told me to lose weight, start wearing makeup, etc... i thought i looked just fine, maybe could lose 10lbs, which i was expecting to come off on their own. really i had 2 babies over 8lbs in 15 months. as far as the makeup goes, i hate it when i can see make up on people. i think people look better with out it. i've been trying to lose weight. he says he wants it for my health, but he doesn't care one way or another if i don't eat at all. i've started wearing makeup, not much but some. <P>i know that i have a learning disability and did pretty well with school considering my parents were told i would never be able to read or write. so as far as the smart thing goes, i may be insecure in that.<P>it seems that he thinks she's perfect because he says 'stop smoking' and she does. he dreams about her also. supposedly he would get along with her parents - mine hate him. just all these things everything i've said before and now. the way he talks about her is like he's talking about how wonderful a child is, or a boyfriend talks about his girlfriend when they first fall in love. <P>sometimes i almost wish that they would just kiss or something and realize that there's something more there. but then i would be even more hurt that it went that far.