Unless there is physical abuse, divorce is so unnecessary, and the effect of selfishness on kids is tremendous, and negative. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>WS who have kids, who act on emotions only, who think the world revolves around them, who think that the kids will be fine, who can't share kids because its a power struggle, who use excuses and blaming to get by with their irresponsibility. . .
who don't make an honest effort [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p> are totally f****d up and totally f*** up kids, famikly values, and everything else that is negative about divorce. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My sh!thead X tells the kids both yes and no to their requests, and totally confuse the crap out of them, and me, and tell me one thing, and them the other because she is not strong enough to be a half way decent parent. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>When you give kids anything they want because you feel guyilty about your selfishness, they learn the wrong lessons and just get totally screwed up in the process. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I am just mad at my X for having such sh!tty, crappy parental set to give her such mixed messages that she can't figure out herself or how to parent with any decent set of values. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I would find alot of joy in collecting life insurance! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

WIFTTy--<p>I am so sorry...it sounds like things are getting to you. Yeah, they can get pretty screwed-up, and it is not fair. And to drag kids thru this all is not fair either.<p>The good part is that your kids have you; not just your wacked out WS. You are setting an example for them, and kids generally manage to sort out who is acting in their welfare and who is not.<p>Hang in there--<p>Kathi

WIFTT, <p>I am so sorry your hurting, and that
your kids are hurting..<p>I agree, giving kids "everything" because of guilt is completely wrong..and makes the parent who actually says..NO, to things look like a bad parent..or makes the kids feel that's how you show you love someone..grrrrr...<p>But, they are blest to have you who can show
them that you love them..and are there for
them..<p>marriages with Any type of abuse, be it physical, verbal, emotional or whatever..if the abuser refuses to get help..should be left..not necessarily divorce..but at least seperate
till the abuser gets help..if they refuse to
get help..then divorce to protect yourself..<p>Now, why are you mad at her for how her parents
raised her? Be mad at them for teaching her wrong..but, your wife..needs to face those things..and want to change..unfortunately you
can't force her to see it..because to her..it's
normal.. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>And sometimes, Parents do all the right things...
and the kids still rebell..it's called the sin
nature..the parents take them to church, teach them all about God, and His love, but the kids
don't want any part of it..they choose not to
follow God...<p>I know..my parents were the same way, and I really
hate what they taught..and it has taken me YEARS to relearn everything..and to fully understand things they should have taught but didn't..
but,it's not my fault they were that way..
but, I did suffer..as did all the ppl I have had
relationships with..because of my understanding
of what a relationship was supposed to be like..<p>I wish your X would take time to look within
herself, and see this too..but, she has to be ready to face those things.. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</p>

after our first telephone call, she said,
"I don't have to be grilled by you!" so i ended the conversation, and talked to s.<p>The next conversation, I let her have it, told her how she confused the crap out of me, out of them, how she doesn't say what she means, or means what she says, and i refuted every attempt she tried to use to get out of it.<p>The result? she apologized on her own to son in front of me, for confusing us and not being clear.
finally, a little recognition that its not all about me, and I ain't that screwed up. She also finally agreed with me in front of son, which is helpful.<p>What deep down made me mad was the fact that son was upset and crying because he didn't get to go trick or treating with his friend, partly because of our divorce, and partly because he doesn't know how to handle not getting his own way. . . he responded like his mom, "Fine, if i don't get my own way, i am not going. . ." i told him fine with me, although he is acting selfish.<p>Now, where is that life insurance check i want to collect???<p>thanks for listening,
and i blame the XIL's for being such poor, poor parenting examples,
and I blame myself for having seen it before getting married, but not being mature enough and self confident enough to bail before the bells.<p>tom

Oh Tom,

I feel so bad for you, and also your kids.<p>Your X and my still stbx!!!! are wacko, insane,needy and very limited in understanding relationships, parwenting etc. This is what makes it so hard and frustrating for caring parents and confusing for the kids.<p>I think it is up to you to understand that your level of frustration in dealing with your kids mother will continue forever. I hope you find a way that is easier for you, without giving up on the values etc you teach your kids!<p>I am still searching for that spot. 2 of my kids are HUGE messes while I see hope for 2 as probably being better people than had their father and I stayed together!<p>
Life is sometimes ok in 2001 and has to be even better in 2002!

Hey WIFTT,<p>She's in the FOG, man. They cannot think straight. If they could, they wouldn't be having an affair.<p>I think you just need to detach from her completely. Plan B baby. Do not expect any rational behavior from her at this point. It's not possible.<p>Just ignore her. When she goes berzerk, just walk away or hang up. As long as you keep being the whipping boy, she'll keep on whipping. Take the high road. Do what is right for your son and forget about her. She is behaving as a child. Be glad that you only have ONE(?) child to raise now instead of TWO.<p>Do not fight with her. That's what she wants. She wants to be able to point her finger at you when you blow up and say that that is why she's doing what she's doing and to feel justified. (It feels damn good to hang up on them or walk away. Leave them hanging at their boiling point.)<p>STOP PLAYING THE GAME
It's the only way to win. Do what is best for your son and leave her alone. Focus on your son and you. Ignore her completely. She will never get her head screwed on straight if you keep letting her push your buttons. Make her have to hold in all of her problems and explode or dump them on the OM which will make her less attractive to him. Stop being the dumping ground. The OM will see what she truly is and you will have a lot more peace when you are no longer the outlet for her problems. As I put it to my WS XW, "I'm not getting anything good out of the relationship anymore so I'm damned sure not taking anything bad."<p>I believe I'm having some success when taking this approach with my WS XW. She's showing signs of settling down and showing some signs that she thinks she may have made a mistake.<p>Let it go. You will NEVER win by fighting with her and only your son will suffer.<p>Kevin

Tom,
You have lots of reasons to be angry. Whew! That was definitely a vent. Hope you feel better now. Just think, when your kids are 30 something, they'll realize what a good dad you are. Meanwhile, move those buttons where your exW can't find them!!

Tom,<p>It sounds like she's trying to figure things
out inside herself..but, not sure how or
where to start..<p>It's good she apologized..<p>How old is your son? I know my son gets
that way too..gets mad, slams down the
phone..slams doors..doesn't want to do
something..if it's not his way (he's 6)
I personally spank him for doing these
things. because he needs to learn
that behavior if unappropriate..<p>And don't blame yourself, that you didn't
bail before..you acted on what you understood..
about relationships..and figured that if you
loved her enough..she would change..but, you have
to realize, you can't fix someone..you can't
make them love themselves..they have to learn
that on their own..especially since her parent's
didn't teach her..but, your not her dad..and it was not your responsibility as her husband to teach her..to be emotionally mature.<p>Wish I could help w/ the ins. ck..I know sometimes
it feels that would be the best option.. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Wiffty,<p>I can see that you are really frustrated and hurting. I'm sorry about your situation.<p>One thing that I think you need to do, that nobody else really commented on...<p>You need to put aside this wish for somebody to die. Although you didn't say who, I suppose it must be your wife that you are hoping will leave you a fat life insurance check. Don't go there, man! Maybe you think I'm being overly dramatic, but really, this is where it begins. Assume that your wife is going to live a long life and figure out how to deal with the situation. Sure, I wished OM would have an accident (or something), but I never wished harm on my W. I'm not saying that like I'm virtuous or something. I don't know all the pain you have suffered, but please don't lie awake at night thinking of ways to do her in. It poisons the mind. Think of positive things - building yourself up - taking care of your kids. Let her take care of her own life.<p>OK?<p>-AD

Wiftty,<p>A note of hope, my three children are doing fine and actually doing better then expected. They had a father that had no clue on parenting skills. <p>My younger one ended up in Childrens village at the age of 13 for "felony unarmed robbery"<p>He came to live with me then, and has finally turned around. At the age of 17 he is doing great.<p>There was a comment about when they are 30 they will realize. <p>It really doesn't even take that long. I don't know how many times I said to my kids. Because I love you, the answer is NO.<p>AT 14 my youngest said, I like living with you MOM I feel safer here, Dad doesn't even care enough about me to ask Where I am going or who I am with.<p>Hang in there, it does get better.<p>-Kat-

Well cyber friends, thank you . . . .<p>First, the kids and I had a good time. Son made some comments about how he liked the neighborhood where his friends live, and I wanted to live. He also said he hated where he lives with his mom. I tried to explain to him that he lives in a house with a job, not at a home. However, since the houses now cost $500 - $750K in that neighborhood, where predivorce we could have afforded it, and people whom i worked with live, it is too late for me unless i get the real hang of this current job.<p>Well cyber friends, thank you . . . .<p>First, the kids and I had a good time. Son made some comments about how he liked the neighborhood where his friends live, and I wanted to live. He also said he hated where he lives with his mom. I tried to explain to him that he lives in a house with a job, not at a home. However, since the houses now cost $500 - $750K in that neighborhood, where predivorce we could have afforded it, and people whom i worked with live, it is too late for me unless i get the real hang of this current job.<p>OK, please realize that I am in Plan B, but this situation had to do with my taking the kids, and how I was to take them. . . Believe me, everytime she opens her mouth, nothing intelligent comes out, so i spend most of my time not responding to much she says. secondly, understand that she wants to be right, and she has evolved a type of interaction to try to be right asoften as possible. Her mom was like that, and it involves selective memory, dicing up the facts of the discussion until she finds one that supports her position, and if i can't refute it, she considers that she is correct in the entire discussion.<p>Therefore, i have to get past her selective memory to bring in the stuff she doesn't want to acknowledge, and she uses i forget all the time, its like a built in excuse. . . . to get her to admit (to herself only) that she is not correct/parenting correctly.<p>So, my frustrations build when I get two or three different answers, she uses the "I don't remember, I say alot of things I don't remember" excuse, and its purely so she can feel right or in control, regardless of the outcome.<p>Finally, this is a long term battle, i must wage it so that there is the "normal" parenting influence in my kids lives so that when they are older, and have to experience responsibility in the workforce, and as parents, they will have at least been exposed to the lessons of responsibility, self reliance, learning to overcome unfavorable obstacles, etc. instead of just quitting because one doesn't get their own way, which has been demostrated by the X.<p>and no, i don't sit up all night thinking about ways to collect life insurance, it was a comment about the only way to end this 10 year battle, but alas, I will not be involved in it if it happens.<p>OK, i am better today, just this job i am in isn't going well, and I have always dreamed about doing it and being successful, and its damn frustrating!! <p>WIFTTy<p>[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</p>

and no, my head did not pop off! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Glad to hear that you are calming down.....Otherwise there should have been steam coming out your ears.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>. . .<p>
OK, please realize that I am in Plan B, but this situation had to do with my taking the kids, and how I was to take them. . . <p>So, my frustrations build when I get two or three different answers, she uses the "I don't remember, I say alot of things I don't remember" excuse, and its purely so she can feel right or in control, regardless of the outcome.<p>WIFTTy<p>[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Can you offer to meet someplace to pick up the kids? That is something I suggested my stbx
and I to do..because a few times when he'd come over to get them we'd start fighting about something..and I don't want that at my home..
I want my home to feel safe..not just for me
but, for my kids as well..<p>As far as selective memory goes, how long ago
were the things said?? I mean..I said things
13, 14 years ago, (before we were married) that
he still brought up in arguements 11 yrs later,and for me I spoke my peace on the matter, we discussed them end of story..but, I guess, he hadn't really dealt with these things to his satisfaction so they were constantly brought out in arguements when he didn't want to deal with the situation at the moment, and trying to
take the focus off of that..trying to make me feel
guilty for things, God had already forgiven..<p>so how long ago are we talking the selective memories?? are they things that were said, a week ago, 5 years ago?? <p>And as far as the job goes, it sounds like you
may be struggling inside with your own self-confidence..and afraid, that you can't
do this job..because you've lost a sense of balance..like, maybe I am not who/what I thought I was before..a betrayal of any sort rocks you to
the core of everything you've ever thought about
yourself..including your job..and if you are truly
capable of doing this..so maybe take a breather..
and remember who you are as an employee..make out
a resume, and look back at all your accomplishmentments on the job..maybe that will help??? But, you may also need to find balance on
how to work being a single father into your life
also..<p>I think this is one of the things that really confounds my stbxh..I still try and encourage him in his career..because I know..that even though things were one way at home..he is one of the best employees, and workers in his field..hell..thats been his life..even put before his family..that has been where ALL of energies have been focused..
He's never had balance..of being a spouse, a father, a friend, and an employee..he's always
been his job...(that is how I percieve it by his
actions, that is how he views himself, he is his
job, his job is him)<p>So maybe you just need to find some balance in
your life..but, then...I may be totally off here
too..

TR,<p>the conversations that i am talking about was within the last couple of days, say during this week, concerning what we will be doing for halloween. I do not bring up ten years ago, two years ago, last year, I bring up our recent, within the last week conversations about the topic at hand. that is what is so frustrating to me, she didn't say yes to son, and indicated to me that she supported going with me. then in front of the kid, she said, well if i had decided to take them, i would have let him go with his friend. Well, in fact, that was the first time she ever indicated to anyone, son or me, that she supported his actions, but it was a hypothetical situation, not the current situation, and to a distressed kid, bring up something hypothetical doesn't help at all. (see what I mean!)<p>TR, <p>the job situation, yes, there is something to be said for that, although changing it is beyond my control at the moment, and the issues at my job are all internal issues, internal within me. so, i can change it a little bit, but not enough to make a substantial difference at the moment.<p>you you are very perceptive, and i have thought about it, and discussed this with a friend of mine, so i agree, but then i have to wait for someone to agree to interview me to get a job, since i currently don't work for anybody else but me.<p>and i want a specific location job so that there are athletics available at lunch, or else, i am toast.<p>WIFTTy