Just a little background:<p>- Married young (me 23, her 21) in 93. She's latin american, from a rich but dysfunctional family there. I'm from middle-class suburbia, from quiet unemotional parents.
- Had difficulty meeting her EN's, vice versa. Sex was always great, though! :-)
- She was constantly resentful that I wasn't a warmer person. And she's right. I'm not all that warm a person. But I'm stable. Rarely moody, and never violent or aggressive/abusive.
- I was constantly resentful that she never contributed to our financial picture, and that she rarely seemed to be able to take care of anything or figure anything out for herself. I supported her 100% in all her endeavors, and I
sacrificed many of my own interests to do so. She knows that, which is why she's not asking for any money or support when we divorce. Not even home equity. I don't think any lawyer would let her do that, but that's the way she feels.
- Common interests became fewer and fewer.
- No kids.
- W moved into her own apartment 5/01 in "an attempt to find what she used to feel for me".
- W informed me she wasn't coming back 9/01.<p>Since she left, two feelings have been fighting inside me - a feeling of loss, with a touch of jealousy, and a feeling of excitement for the future - a future where I get to do the things I want to and fund them for myself.<p>Guess which feeling is winning? Excitement!!! I actually feel great about my future right now!<p>(The jealousy part isn't about any OM. There isn't one, to my knowledge, and it's probably all my imagination, which is pretty vivid sometimes.)<p>I think both of us didn't want to be the first one to give up, actually.<p>So I'm wondering if I'm in the fog myself. No OW, just the thought of being on my own feels great! I feel like I can do anything! And I don't have to parent her anymore. (at least I try not to feel compelled to when she calls with another problem) And that's how I feel about her now. Like she was my child, always needing attention, always needing things done for her, figured out for her, and always needing to be entertained.<p>I'm saving sooo much money because I don't have to take her out for expensive dinners anymore. And other savings on expenses similar to that are adding up now.<p>I feel like I deserve more of a partner in a relationship. And I wonder if such a dream is the fog, or if the fog only applies to the false impression of an actual other person?<p>Stable Guy

My therapist was worried that W might play
games with me. Well, it has started. She made her bed when she left, but she's having a hard time sleeping in it.<p>She has been calling me at work and at home with
increasing frequency, and for items with decreasing importance. At first, she needed items such as her passport, clothes, personal effects, etc. Then she needed to stop by to get her last few things, and each time she stayed a little longer to talk.<p>This weekend, though, she stopped by twice - and on Sunday "invited" me to lunch. I wasn't really hungry, but I accepted in case she had something important to say. She picked an expensive restaurant. I paid. Some things never change, eh?<p>Anyway, it turns out she is very lonely. I have a
great support network - family, friends, co-workers, a counselor, and even neighbors. She has none of these things. She said she wants to "be able to count on me as a friend". I don't want to hurt her, but I don't think she should expect that when she's the one who left me!!! I just said I'd be her friend, but not her parent. I said it, but I wasn't feeling it. I felt like just telling her to go sleep in the bed she made. But I'm trying not to be vindictive, so I didn't.<p>For her:<p>-Work is bad.<p>When she left me, she thought her boss was her best friend. Turns out her boss was secretly being
competitive with her, and isn't the person she
appeared to be. W can't relate to her boss at all
anymore and has lost respect for her.<p>-Friends are few.<p>Her other friends are married with children and
haven't the time to console her.<p>-Home is depressing.<p>The apartment she used to prefer over our house she now calls her dungeon- after all, it's someone's basement. She's looking at other places.<p>-her home country isn't an inviting option anymore.<p>She was thinking of going home to south america. But the economy is bad, crime is very bad, and taking dogs to her country involves 60 days quarantine, much stress, and much expense. She asked me if I would take all 3 dogs. NOT! Her grandmother is so angry at her for leaving me, and said so. For reasons of security, she told
W not to come. And this really hurt W.<p>SO, she just called me at work for something so
inconsequential that I was just plain annoyed. She
wanted to stop by to pick up the bundt cake pan so she could make a flan for me to take to my family's thanksgiving. That's all. I asked her what else, and she started thinking out loud: she thinks she could use a vehicle that has better gas mileage.<p>I was so looking forward to living for me.<p>In the mean time, I'm just trying not to get caught up in her game, but it's hard to be gentle about it at the same time. I don't want to be cruel.<p>Personally, I was the one who wanted to get back together. Two months ago I pleaded with her to move back in with me. She said it was over. But now that she is gone and I have gotten a taste of life without her, I feel I'm better off without her. And now she's making that hard for me too!!! (Hard for me because I feel so sorry for her)<p>Have any of you realized you're better off without the one who left you?<p>[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: stable guy ]</p>

Tis me, the direct and brutal guy!<p>I think that with no kids, you should not look back and live on your own, do some of the activities that you haven't been able to do, and just have fun.<p>You will have a marriage under your belt for experience, you should have studied the MB philosophy and have a good idea on what type of person you will be more comfortable with, and will be a good catch in the future.<p>Be sure to do enough counseling such that you finally know yourself inside and out, that you have goals for your professional life, and goals for your personal life. Finally, identify what type of person you would be very comfortable with, and be on the lookout for her, but don't settle, date for fun for 5 years or so before you settle down again!<p>there is no fog there, you are doing very well, i would say, get the agreement done and completed before the lawyers get real nasty and everyone is feeling friendly. Then you say good bye and be on your own!<p>take care
and you are dong real well,
keep it up,<p>and i recommend the book "If the Buddha dated" by Charlotte Kasl for future relationships.<p>WIFTTy

Stable Guy,<p>Don't let WIFTY persuade you too quickly to abandon your marriage.<p>My W is a lot like yours. W married when she was 19, so she was even younger than your W. She takes responsibility for nothing, expects me to do everything. I know the feeling. I felt better in a way when she moved out. Yet, I still want her back. We have a daugther too, and I miss both of them every day. My W too is an immigrant, and I would have to say that the word "disfunctional" is a little too broad, but certainly her family had big problems. Her Mom is a very controlling woman - and used all her resources to control her daughter. Thats where our biggest problem lies. Her Mom wanted an American son-in-law. As my W tells it, her Mom "made her" marry me.<p>We haven't been married as long as you, but I can imagine how I would feel if she had stayed and kept it up like it was going the first 2 1/2 years. I am a shell of my former self. I gave up everything for her. She left me.<p>Maybe we can help each other.<p>I still want my wife, but not with the old relationship. It's got to be different, but I keep falling into the same pattern of taking care of her. She just called me yesterday morning - said she locked her keys in the car, could I come. So, I went there and opened her car (I have a key). She ended up starting an argument with me. Oh well, I should have been more careful. (See, even I blame myself).<p>Thanks for the intro. Nice to meet you. I hope you decide to keep trying - and figure out a way to let your W take on some responsibility AND want to be your wife.<p>-AD

Thanks, WIFTT, for your response.<p>The thought of doing exactly that sounds great. It's what makes me feel so good right now! I'm not giving up quickly, AD, - I feel like I have done the best I can, certainly having read all the MB concepts and trying to practice plan A since 9/00 (way before and long after she moved out in 5/01).<p>Plan A is probably why I allowed her to move out in the first place. Somehow I feel like it was inevitable anyway. Had I resisted and played the stern parent and told her she couldn't move out, damaging rebellious things might have been said and done.<p>I really feel like the ball is in my court now. I've got "hand", so to speak (Seinfeld fans know what that means)<p>On the one hand, I would love to move on and sever ties. I am happier without her the way she is right now. She needs to grow up, and she needs to be more of a partner and less of a dependent.<p>On the other hand, I think I could get her back, but Plan A isn't the way to do it. She's got to grow up a LOT before I'd be willing to have her back in my life. Things would have to be way different. Joint therapy, individual therapy, rules; it would be a hard row to hoe.<p>And that's where AbandonedDad comes in. Thanks AD, for your reply as well!!<p>Dysfunctional doesn't really cover it in W's family's case. Her dad's a playboy. Her mom's a deadbeat. Her grandmother is an angel, who took care of her much of the time, and from whom all good traits flowed. Her dad cheated a lot, divorced her mom when she was 2, repeatedly forgot to pick her up at the bus station, and dated her high school friends. Currently he's dating a girl 4 years younger than she is. Her brother is 2 years younger, is bisexual, and has contracted HIV. All the family lives in her home country. Both her parents abandoned her and betrayed her at various times, and she's been in therapy off and on during childhood and teen years. At one time she was nearly molested by one therapist. She spent a couple years in an abusive relationship with a drug using boyfriend just before she ran away from it all and came to the States with a trainee visa. I met her about 6 months into her stay here.<p>She's really a wonderful person considering the mess that produced her. But she has issues to work out. Like I said, I've done my best for 8 years to help her work out her problems. For the first year, she had nightmares every night. Those finally subsided, but she would have them occasionally afterwards. She has developed a better relationship with her father, but she still can't stand to be in the same room with her mother, who at one point used her position of employment at the bank to embezzle from her daughter's bank account, and to this day can't hold a job or find a boyfriend who doesn't take financial advantage of her. Her mother would also forget to pick her and her brother up from the bus station. (The kids were on buses a lot bouncing back and forth between homes like Pong pixels.)<p>For 8 years we have worked through a lot of the issues of her background, but not all of them, and not thoroughly, and unfortunately, not with a lot of continuity. But I'm probably the most stable thing she's got in her life, and that has probably enabled her to grow a lot. I still feel sorry for her right now, but I feel like I've done as much as anyone could ask of me. Could I do more? Yes, but I'm tired of it. Do I feel selfish in wanting to live for me? Yes, but I deserve more! I want to do things I want to do! This is the first time I've gone more than a month without feeling depressed! Do I want to end that by making more sacrifices?<p>
AD, Your story is interesting to me as well.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I still want my wife, but not with the old relationship. It's got to be different, but I keep falling into the same pattern of taking care of her. She just called me yesterday morning - said she locked her keys in the car, could I come. So, I went there and opened her car (I have a key). She ended up starting an argument with me. Oh well, I should have been more careful. (See, even I blame myself).<p> <hr></blockquote><p>That sounds like something I would say. It'll probably happen to me tomorrow. I'll save that text for when it happens!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I think our situations are very similar! I'm interested in seeing how you do with the path you're taking. And I'd like to talk more about the immigration aspect of this. But for now, the novelette I just wrote above should keep you busy! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Given that FOO (family of origin) issues come back to haunt us when we reach midlife and have the stress of kids, I reiterate that you cannot fix other people.<p>If you want a normal relationship, start with a normal woman from a normal family. <p>You know, i have been through alot, and have been here awhile, and spending a fair amount of time in plan A is worthwhile, but after a prolonged period of time, if there is no change, such as a year, chances are there will not be any more.<p>Without kids, it is a long term dating, and if it doesn't work out, no big deal, there are still plenty of other nice, normal woman out there.<p>and if you married too young, or immaturely, you can still fix the problem, whereas if you had kids, you really can't, its too late.<p>good luck!

WIFTTy,<p>Why do you put a y at the end of your name?<p>Thanks again for your posts.<p>Now,<p>I'm not sure I can subscribe to the normal woman/normal family theory. I mean, you will never find a normal woman. Everyone has problems, everyone has baggage. Some more than others, I'll admit, but no matter who you hook up with, you'll find some problems there, and skeletons too. I guarantee. Find a normal woman, and you then have to deal with her baggage, and you have to worry about whether her baggage coordinates with your baggage, and so on. For every new woman, you gotta repeat this all over again, really.<p>So with the time and effort I've invested in my W so far, it really is hard to just throw all that away. She's confused right now. She's still immature, and she's still damaged goods. But she's also wonderful, and I think she could heal, given the right stimuli. Shunning her now might even make that damage permanent. Sure, someone else would have to deal with it, but it feels cruel to me.<p>You may be right, you may not be able to fix people, but people can heal. For her, I know it will take a LOT of time. Even more time if I cut her out of my life completely right now. She's had abandonment issues with her parents already. If I do so as well, her scars will re-open and grow deeper.<p>What she needs right now is to realize that she needs to grow up and face her fears. Face her problems. Face her spouse. Be honest with herself and me. Will it happen? Who knows?<p>The other thing I only touched upon is the question of fidelity. Out of the "28 Tell-Tale Signs of a Cheating Spouse", she's exhibited 13. But I don't have any concrete proof, and she's insistent that she has been faithful.<p>I'm treating it with Plan A / Plan B anyway, as though she's been wayward. At the very least, she's been seduced by the idea that life being single again would be easier to deal with than trying to work out our marriage. Me too, hence the name of this thread. But she's finding out now that it isn't any easier being on her own.<p>I find that life is great without having to worry about such a burden as her. Close friends and family all tell me "We loved your W too, but you deserve your own happiness too!" And I too feel that way most of the time lately.<p>Signed, on the fence between plan B and the end of plan B!

are you looking at her as a parent would? (treating her as a child)? or as an equal, mature adult?<p>in order to support your case, you are making a sweeping generalization that everyone has problems. Well, i disagree, not everyone has immaturity problems, not everyone has personality disorders, not everyone has skeletons in their closet that makes them dysfunctional.<p>I would challenge you to answer this question:
if you were dating her for two years, and she did this, what would you do? <p>As recommended by the author of Private Lies , "it is far better to marry someone like you than not." My interpretation of that means:<p>1) a similar personality type.
2) a similar family of origin and values.
from your description, she is not, which makes your relationship a higher risk relationship, as you have just seen.<p>just my opinion, but then again, I haven't read many of your posts, and am very unforgiving towards people who don't understand change and constant improvement from learning from their mistakes, and who don't push the envelope to be a little bit better and a little bit wiser as they go through life.<p>sometimes i'm sWIFTTy
just for ease of acronymical pronunciation

sWIFTTy said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> are you looking at her as a parent would? (treating her as a child)? or as an equal, mature adult?<p><hr></blockquote>
Excellent question. I suppose I still look at her as a parent figure. This is true. I don't know how long or what it would take to consider her as an equal. Mark one for the "move on" column.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
in order to support your case, you are making a sweeping generalization that everyone has problems. Well, i disagree, not everyone has immaturity problems, not everyone has personality disorders, not everyone has skeletons in their closet that makes them dysfunctional.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Well, I guess we can agree to disagree there. I agree not everyone has these particular problems, but I would argue that we all have problems. And I admitted that hers were relatively severe.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><p>I would challenge you to answer this question:
if you were dating her for two years, and she did this, what would you do? <p><hr></blockquote><p>I don't consider that relevant. Of course, if we weren't married, and only had been dating for two
years, things might be different. But as it stands, I did take vows. I did vow to stand by her for better and for worse. And we've been married for 8 years.<p>I don't want to get into the whole morality of going back on vows by entering a divorce. Let's just say I won't do it lightly.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
As recommended by the author of Private Lies , "it is far better to marry someone like you than not." My interpretation of that means:<p>1) a similar personality type.
2) a similar family of origin and values.
from your description, she is not, which makes your relationship a higher risk relationship, as you have just seen.
<hr></blockquote><p>You bet. Then again, her influences have also bettered me in many ways. I've been able to let loose sometimes and have fun. I'm a warmer, more communicative person than I was. And I've seen and done a lot of things I never would have. And perhaps you're right - that's all great stuff I can take with me into a new relationship.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
just my opinion, but then again, I haven't read many of your posts, and am very unforgiving towards people who don't understand change and constant improvement from learning from their mistakes, and who don't push the envelope to be a little bit better and a little bit wiser as they go through life.
<hr></blockquote><p>And I value your opinon. And I haven't posted many times, so there's not a lot for you to go on.<p>I appreciate your advice and experience. And believe me, I really value it. You make a lot of sense. It's just that this is a pretty critical time. I don't want to do anything that might screw up either of our futures, be they together or apart.<p>Unless I receive proof of an actual affair, we can't legally divorce until next august anyway, since (in Maryland) the only other applicable grounds left is 1 yr. of mutual separation without physical relations. So there's time for just about anything to happen. Time for me to think and to consider advice like yours!<p>Thanks WIFTT!!!!

Stable guy, have you ever thought that you might be co-dependent? I know the Harleys don't really like that whole theory or see it as a bad thing, but there are many people who identify very strongly with it. I ask this because even though you lament about your wifes childish and irresponsible ways, it takes two to dance that dance, and she couldn't exhibit that behavior if you haven't been letting her. So maybe you are 50% responsible for this situation?<p>All I'm saying is you've said a couple of times how SHE will have to change. Please acknowledge that YOU will have to change as well. Plan A works under the theory that the only person you can change is yourself, and sometimes by changing your actions others will likewise change theirs in response. Something for you to think about. <p>Maybe you were getting something out of being her caretaker? Maybe something inside of you finds worth in being the rescuer? If that's the case, if you never look at yourself, you could very likely wind up with yet another woman just like your wife. <p>Like you said, everyone has baggage. That includes you as well. Maybe you're better off dealing with the baggage that you already know about, since you already have 8 years invested. A lifetime is a longtime. There's a lot of room for change, for evolution. You and you're wife will likely be very different people 40 years from now. Maybe you can learn to grow a little bit together? I mean, since you have all that time.

Ava,<p>How perceptive! And you are exactly why this board is so great - differing perspectives, and now and then, someone willing to slap you on the back of the head and say "wake up you idiot!".<p>I've thought about how I would have to change as well. In fact my therapist made me do a little exercise - write down all the ways I parent her. I brought it in. And then she said "stop doing those things!". (this was after W had already moved out)<p>It was hard! I realize I was getting some satisfaction out of being her caretaker. <p>I don't know how well-regarded the Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus book is in this circle, but I read it over a year ago, and it was interesting at least. One of the themes is that men are "mr. fixits". They naturally want to fix things, whereas women just want voice out their problems and have them heard with sympathy, not necessarily have them fixed.<p>Was my care-taker satisfaction just a natural mr-fixit response? I don't know, and I don't take a lot of stock in such generalizations in the first place, but the description of the mr-fixit fits me to a T.<p>While I got satisfaction from being the hero, I was missing a lot, too. I was constantly depressed because of the sacrifices I was making to appease her.<p>I hope I can learn from this. I hope I can keep from making the same mistake twice. She just called again, this time for NO REASON AT ALL!!! Said she misses me.<p>I couldn't return the sentiment.<p>[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: stable guy ]</p>

Stable guy-<p>Yes, it is very hard to change those caretaking ways. It&#8217;s similar to the action of &#8216;detachment&#8217; that they talk about in groups like Alanon and Codependents Anonymous. The &#8216;stable&#8217; person needs as much help as the unstable person in changing those patterns. The only difference is that your patterns are more socially acceptable and sometimes even seen as positive traits, but if they&#8217;re not getting you where you want to be (i.e. in a fulfilling relationship) then they&#8217;re really not all that positive after all, are they?<p>I&#8217;m very much like you. And as a top notch caretaker, I have a lot of trouble with detachment. I felt that I needed to physically separate from my husband because even though I had some success not actually &#8216;doing&#8217; things for him, I still found that I was constantly thinking about him and his issues all the time. His issues occupied my brain much, much more than mine ever did. And the more time I spent on him, the less time I spent on me. That&#8217;s the second biggest problem that codependent people have, and maybe that&#8217;s why you are feeling so good now that she&#8217;s gone. You&#8217;re finally giving to yourself all of the things that you sacrificed before in order to give to her. See, it would have been much better if in your marriage you could have found an equality in your giving, less to her and more to you. Maybe then you wouldn&#8217;t have felt so put upon and maybe she would have been forced to do more for herself. Do you see how your 50% of the problem and how changing your patterns would necessitate a change in hers as well?<p>Also, regarding the Men are from Mars book, personally I don&#8217;t particularly like it. Actually I never read the whole thing but just reading the jacket I knew that it didn&#8217;t pertain to my marriage at all. I have more of the Martian characteristics and my husband is definitely more of a Venusian. Our roles seem to be reversed.<p>Are you still seeing a therapist? Do you think you and your wife will go through with a divorce? Is that what you really want?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Maybe then you wouldn’t have felt so put upon and maybe she would have been forced to do more for herself. Do you see how your 50% of the problem and how changing your patterns would necessitate a change in hers as well?
<hr></blockquote><p>Ava,<p>I see that. I was seeing my therapist all summer (immediately after she moved out). And things were truly looking better. My therapist and I recognized the pattern, and I was doing things to break out of it, and trying not to be coldhearted about it. For example, W would tell me that she lost her cell phone. Instead of calling the phone company myself, arranging for a replacement, and telling her what else she had to do to receive it, I would ask, "What do you think needs to be done about that?". Basically, I began to play stupid whenever she asked me questions designed to lead me into doing things for her.<p>She wasn't changing, I think. She didn't like that AT ALL!<p>I guess it seemed easier to her to live without me once I stopped bending over backwards for her. But now she's calling several times a day.<p>In fact, she just called. And she wants to stop by. I asked why, and she said "To see you." I said, "you know, we probably do need to talk."<p>So tonight I'll be seeing her (if she shows). My plan going in is to remind her that SHE left ME. That that hurt me, and it still hurts. And I'm confused as to why she wants to continue a relationship with me.<p>Playing stupid puts the pressure on her to figure something out. I just realized (as I'm typing this out) that trying to come up with a plan for us is just another way I have to fix things. Well, this time, I say NO! Let HER chew on it. Let HER worry about the whole mess. I will play stupid. Yes. That's it. Like you said, I can only change myself.<p>What do you think of my plan for not hatching a plan?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Are you still seeing a therapist? Do you think you and your wife will go through with a divorce? Is that what you really want? <hr></blockquote><p>I'm scheduling sessions as I need them. It costs me $40 out of pocket each time, so I'm trying to be sparing. I was going weekly for about 2 months after she left, and lately every 3-4 weeks. I intend to go back next perhaps sometime before T-giving. I like my therapist. She thinks I'm way better off without W. She totally wants me to get on with my life. She also hoped that W wouldn't play games. Well, she saw it coming, didn't she?<p>I don't know, and I'm not sure.<p>I'll tell you what I really want - I want to get on with my own life, live for me for a change, and not have to worry about her. The biggest problem is I feel sorry for her and I feel responsible for her. And that guilt is putting a crimp in my happiness right now. Especially since I know I shouldn't feel guilty. SHE left ME. I did EVERYTHING for her. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>In fact, I do know that I was happier when she wasn't calling and stopping by, if that's any indication.