OK, we, my current friend and I, were discussing religion and the effect on our relationship.<p>She is in a wad about it. Why you ask?<p>Well, lets look at it from her point of view:<p>she married someone who was religious, who agreed to go to her church, and said he was a Christian. Well, he left her due to a high personality conflict, and probably other latent problems.<p>So she is still religious, and has a requirement that she be able to share religion with him. Then we met, i am a nice guy, talented, interesting, supportive, we share alot of interests, conversation, etc. but i am not religious. We get along very well. she is adventurous and likes to travel, which i like to do also.<p> ROAD TRIP! oh, sorry, back to the topic at hand. . . . [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So what would you do in her shoes?

WIFTTY,<p>Ummm, wow! I'm not for sure I am the person to answer this. I don't know if you'll like what I say. But here goes.<p>My husband also said he was a Christian. He did not, however, promise he'd go to church with me. I just assumed.<p>I was young and didn't realize how important it was to have my husband be a part of my Christianity. To share this with me in my life. This was something I needed. As a matter of fact it is my top EN. <p>I have and am still going through my marriage with a fine tooth comb. I have concluded even though he said he was a Christian, and he may very well be as only God knows his heart, he did not have the things God tells us to look for in people. <p>If I would have followed God's suggestions and took these things and applied then in my search for a partner, I wouldn't have married my husband. He tells us to look at a person by the fruit a person bears. This fruit being "the fruit of the spirit". God says the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. My husband had only the first one, "love". This was in a sick way though. The things he did to me were not love.<p>Here's what Galations 5, 19-24 says,<p>The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.<p>But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.<p>As said, if I would have looked at the things God said were bad fruits and the things God says were good fruit this may have helped me. There is still no guarantee I would have found a good husband, however, I think my chances would have improved. I knew my husband had no patience, lacked genleness and self-control before I met him. Instead my husband had most of the things God says are bad fruits, rage, discord, drunkenness, jealousy, self ambition, etc.<p>So, basically, what I am saying is I haven't given up on finding a Christian husband to share my life with. All my life; even my Christianity. <p>I am not your girlfriend so it's hard for me to be in her shoes. Perhaps her exhusband had the majority of these attributes, perhaps not. However, because I know my top EN is to have a Christian family. I can only tell you I would not consider dating a person who is an Atheist. But, I also know it is not a sin if she does or even marries one. God talks of a person being married to a nonbeliever in the bible. He says this. But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?<p>Basically, I interpret this as, God saying a Christian may convince his spouse some day to be a Christian also, but who is to know this for sure. How do we know our Christian influence will convince a non believer? It is also saying if he wants to go, let him go. Also, though there is no commandment against it.<p>Wiffty, I sat in church with my children for most of my marriage, without my husband. I wasn't angry about this, but saddened found myself saddened sometimes. I prayed alot he would come with us. I felt I needed a spiritual husband. Sometimes, I would slip and look at other familys, dad, mom, kids going to church and I wish I had that. God says don't envy, so I tried hard not to envy this. I was happy for the other people, I just wanted it for me too. I prayed a lot for my husband to go with me. Sure, I could still wind up with this happening, but I think my chances are much greater with a person who carries the fruit of the spirit traits and is also a Christian, than a non believer. Your girlfriend may have other EN's that don't include her need to discuss her religion with you or to have her husband go to church with her. <p>Here's a thought. You seem to really love this person and I don't think you want to lose her either. I know you are an athiest but perhaps you could take one more look at Christianity. Do a bible study with her and her minister. Would this be so bad? She doesn't have to convert you but this may help you see a major part of her life. Also, there aren't bad Christians and good Christians as you suggested. There are Christians who are sinners just like everyone else and make mistakes, and then their are also the devils pawns who try to turn people away from Christianity by confessing they are Christians and confusing people. They do evil things which make others think I don't want to have any part of this Christianity. This is just like those the bible speaks of. <p>Wheww, I feel like I should apologize for my post to you. So, I am sorry if these weren't the answers you wanted, but this is the way I feel.<p>ANNA

Anna,<p>i do not have a right or wrong answer for you or for me, or for my friend, just wanted to see how you thought out your answer, and what it was. To me, it is not just the answer that is important, but the explanation and the reasoning, whether well thought out and logical, or quick and emotional, whether you are an original thinker, or a lemming. so you see, i was not asking for your advice, i was asking what would you do?<p>you see, i don't have right or wrong answers for anyone, i have what i would do, or not do. But i also have an open mind to unlimited possibilities.<p>Yes, my friend also sort of has a requirement that she wants to share religion with someone. Yet, when i asked her what shared meant, like sit together and listen to someone talk about it, like read about it, like discuss it, all of a sudden, she wasn't sure that it was a hard and fast requirement, or what she really meant by sharing religion.<p>Church is a social gathering, a family time. and you appear to want to use church time for that reason, sitting together, being a family. Yet, to me, sitting together being a family can be done at home, or together on a picnic, etc. it can be done during a fun activity together. The formal setting and the lectures actually get rather repititious and boring.<p>I play lunch time soccer with a minister. We were talking and I told him that i was an aetheist. He said that was great, at least we can have some spirited discussions about religion and what to believe or not believe. That was the last answer i expected, but he was serious, and he is a really nice guy.<p>my friend predicted that you would respond with:
"he is nice, but I need to keep looking."<p>take care<p>WIFTTy

Wiftty,<p>Ok you now made me laugh. I didn't know I was a part of a test to see what type of thinker I am. LOL Well, thanks for the laugh. Well, you got my curiousity up now. So what type of thinker do you portray me to be now? Also, Will you tell your friend my comments? If so I'd love to know how she felt?<p>I'm glad there was no right or wrong answer. I know I can always pass these types of test. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Take care. I hope you and your girlfriend find some common ground in which to build on.<p>ANNA<p>P.S.<p>When are you going to answer my many questions on the religion thread?<p>Be careful, you never know it may be a test also. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

WIFTT,<p>I know you didn't ask my opinion here but, I'll jump in here too, please don't be offended..<p>For me sharing my faith isn't just about going to church together, yes, thats a part of it but, it's also being able to have prayer together as a couple and family at home..to sit and hear your signifant other pray for you about a problem you are dealing with, or about your day, and about your relationship and your family to me would be awesome..because it shows they know you well enough to know what your struggling with..and realize they can't "fix it" for you..<p>It's about being able to have a bible study at home together as couple.<p>being able to share with each other the things that God is teaching you on a personal level
where your growing spiritually..<p>It's about being able to sit and watch a sunset or sunrise together and sit in awe of the view and know that God created it..<p>But, sitting in church together as a couple or family, or going to seperate sunday school classes or couples classes is wonderful too..and comforting to know that you are there together sharing something important..that lifts your soul..<p>But, I didn't mean to steal your thread..just thought I'd add my 2 cents..

TR,<p> Thank you for sharing and jumping in. I am never offended when someone shares their point of view, which may be different than mine! <p>yes, those are very good togetherness activities.
but from a different point of view:<p>1) everyone of those activities can be done without religion.<p>2) instead of praying, i was taught to discuss the situation/problem with others, to get as many different viewpoints and possible answers to learn from, to research options, and then make your own decision. If that means the answer is beyond my control, i either have to trust someone else with the solution, or realize that I have no effect on the outcome, and let the chips fall where they may.<p>Praying is an internalization activity that searches your knowledge base for answers, and then passes the responsibility on from you. Now, this process has a tendency to allow people to abdicate further personal responsibility or learning. an example of this is when people use the excuse that "i am doing _______ in the name of god, allah, or some other religious deity."<p>my friend is currently between jobs, and she had prayed alot for her new job. However, after she shared her problem with me, we discussed plans, options, different points of view, researched answers, etc to try to do the best she can be. and then, i would not let her give up, but i would continue encouraging her to push herself beyond what her current knoweldge base was, and to open up to new possibilities, and to strategize about different approaches.<p>so instead of internalizing the problem and being content with her own personal situation and passing on the responsibility to god, she pushed herself to take on more personal responsibility to learn more, to take on more knowledge and options, to overcome the problem.<p>you see, there is a tendency for religion to be the source of the answers, as anna tends to want to use it for, whereas the answers are mostly within ourselves, but in a different process. <p>Without relying on religion, i must search out the same answers for myself, but without the basis of a 2000 year old philosophy, but with the reality of today, and the desire to search out the knowledgable ones. Then i still make the decision for myself, as I have the sole responsibility to myself, not to anyone else. Now if the knowledge base for the answer is larger than i currently have, i must search out the increased knowledge bae, and then make the decision.<p>I could go on, but must get to work this morning.<p>thanks<p>Anna, i can make a judgement on your thought process, but i won't. i just make a note to describe/remember it as very oriented towards a christian, biblical process, and not one that i would refer to to find answers for myself.<p>and since I went to 5 years of episcopal private school, which is ranked up there with the best, as mentioned in Time magazine, i can't find the issue at the moment, i have been open to plenty of opportunities to learn about christianity, as bible was a required course during my 8th grade year (and yes i flunked! for being disagreeable with the teacher, who was a minister.)<p>WIFTTy

Wiftty,<p>I don't have much time, but wanted to hit on a veiw points.<p>To me, as to all Christians, praying with a person is very different from discussing a problem without God. There is no comparison.<p>The views you express regarding prayer is not my views as a Christian.<p>God does not expect us to lay in bed and have some miracle occur to give us a job. Your girlfriend knows this, too. She knows God answers prayers in many ways and she was doing things to find the answers God wanted her to hear. On the suggestion you helped your girlfriend more than God helped her, I would have to point out to you God answers prayers in many different ways. I am sure God is and always will answer your girlfriends prayers, whether through her friends, family or in other ways.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

wifty, praying is not about abdicating making decisions to somewhere else. I think God fully expects us to use our brains, and be proactive, which is what you describe. Why else give us brains? Perhaps you are putting the cart before the horse in considering prayer. If it is only a means to an end, then it probably wouldn't be as effective as your logical processes. First you have to make a fundamental decision, do we live in an ordered universe (which means it was purposely created), or do we live in a random universe created by means as yet unknown. This is not a trivial question, and it is answerable. You agree logic is important, as do I. The first conclusion one must reach logically, is if we live in an ordered universe, that is discernible, otherwise why would God even reveal Himself, He knows we will require proof. From there you apply analysis to what we can discern about the universe, realizing we have only two conclusions to reach......either a preponderance of the evidence says we are ordered, or we are not. Note, you will not reach an absolute answer, this is not necessary, cause nothing is absolute. There is not a single thing wifty knows that he can prove with absolute certainty...right? That is part of the fog of atheism (which meets all the functional criteria of a religion by the way), it makes the standard for belief absolute certainty. Every decision we make wifty is a calculated one, based on preponderance of the evidence. If this were the place I would give you the argument making a created universe the most likely explanation for our existence (as yet never refuted by an atheist, they usually just get huffy with me, and bail on some half-arsed non-logical reason, in short take their toys and go home). I too was an atheist for awhile, after some religious training as a child. As a young adult, secure in my logical understanding of a deterministic world, I appreciated the morality tale of the Bible, and the good religion can do for those who need such things. But something kept nagging at me, and that was I had never really studied the issue, put it to the test, so I did. I looked at God as just a problem, not the nature of religion, but the nature of the universe, no one was more surprised than I when I "proved" to my satisifaction, if I was going to claim to be a logical person, than I had to believe in God.<p>If you do your homework (maybe you have), there is a raging controversy currently going on at the nether limits of cosmology, dealing VERY logically with the God question. I did my study years ago, but it was nice to see that current science validated (in much more detail) the logic path I had followed. As is usual, there are charge and counter-charges in the scientific camps on each side of the issue, but a review of all the arguments makes it very clear the God explanation is prevailing. The random forces are on the ropes, their arguments becoming more strident and foolish all the time, and are even resorting to attacking the messengers rather than their arguments....fascinating stuff (the psychology of the proponents, even learned scientists can be so selfish, vain, and petulant, is so funny).<p>Anyways a good book is The Creator and the Cosmos by Hugh Ross. He is a controversial figure, but he puts the science down in black and white, draw your own conclusions. And there are other similar books on both sides of the issue. Again, it is not about proof absolute, it is about proof preponderance of the evidence. Making atheism the default choice and making God be proven absolutely to refute it is obviously ignorant...would you agree? And that is the first error those who embrace atheism usually make. Did you? (I did). This is the most important question a human being must face, and answer, because from the nature of our existence flows the underpinnings of how we should order our lives, and the specifications for a successful life..... if we choose wrongly the consequences are nothing less than catastrophic. Those who avoid the question and default (either way atheism, or belief) do themselves a terrible disservice. Blind belief is no good either, and probably not functionally different than defaulting to atheism. God made us with brains to discern the probable truth re our existence, and with emotions to make the leap of faith required to act on the probabilities, leastwise that is my opinion. Much like how a successful marriage works, now isn't that interesting.<p>I could go on for several chapters fleshing out the probability issues as they relate to behavioural choices, and the life strategies for atheists vs believers (individually and as societies), and what the underlying axioms are, but not the place, nor do I have the time.....but is another book I plan to write. Lots of nice motivational warm fuzzy books for believers, just do this and all will be well etc. etc. Not enough stuff for the hard-headed analytical pragmatist crowd. Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis along this line, he has a few things messed up (IMO) but he is on the right track. When I am feeling in need of a good tussle, I go to atheist sites to do battle, the quality of the argument is usually dissappointing though. But in fairness, the quality of argument on religious sites is often pretty wimpy (just believe [then quote the Bible], and all will be well is kinda unsatisfying).... guess that says more about our ability to apply logical reasoning than the actual truths of our existence though.

geez, forgot to finish making my point about prayer!!!!!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>First you decide whether God exists, then you deal with the nature of God, and all the rest of how we should interract, then prayer makes sense, it is a communication channel. If one accepts we have a spiritual nature, then it makes sense to pray about that. So praying for discernment (re right and wrong, or God's plan for us in making freewill choices) makes sense. To an "atheist" this might look like simply processing information intuitiviely etc. We can also make specific requests. Much like we do all the time from friends, family, even strangers. Maybe you are not qualified for a job, and you know it, but you ask the employer anyways to give you the job, why? Cause you need/want it, and they have the power to grant the request, this has nothing to do with any anyaltical efforts you made...right? And finally praying about forgiveness, and such, again something we do with others as well. So you see wifty, the issue is not really that praying is a "tool", it is the means by which we communicate with our Father, in ways very similar, and for reasons very similar, to how we make other communications with people.

I'm reading Power of a Praying Wife, and it is amazing what one person (of course, in this case it is the wife [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )can accomplish with prayer.<p>WIFTTy, I'm jumping in too, and since you've said you don't mind, I hope it's okay...<p>Lately you seem to have some inside track on people's heads (like HeadsCarolina)... where does that come from if not from God?? I saw nothing in her first posts that you did... yet, you said just what she needed to hear. Do you think that's science, or voodoo, or just common sense, or what???<p>Hi Anna!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

WIftt:<p>
1) everyone of those activities can be done without religion.<p>TR-Yes they can be done without prayer..But, in my opinion to get the truth within the Bible one should first pray and ask God to reveal the truth to us through the Holy Spirit..As He says, Give us eyes to see, and ears to hear..and the only way to learn His word is to study it..<p>WIFTT 2) instead of praying, i was taught to discuss the situation/problem with others, to get as many different viewpoints and possible answers to learn from, to research options, and then make your own decision. If that means the answer is beyond my control, i either have to trust someone else with the solution, or realize that I have no effect on the outcome, and let the chips fall where they may.<p>TR-My family didn't discuss 'problems' they hid them. I grew up in a house of secrets and lies. My father molested me from a very young age, and taught not to question anything, my opinions, thoughts didn't matter. Everything was beyond 'my' control except one thing..I could protect my family from the truth so it wouldn't be destroyed. <p>
WIFTT-Praying is an internalization activity that searches your knowledge base for answers, and then passes the responsibility on from you. Now, this process has a tendency to allow people to abdicate further personal responsibility or learning. an example of this is when people use the excuse that "i am doing _______ in the name of god, allah, or some other religious deity."<p>TR-As a teenager, I babysat for a family who went to church, I sat there as ppl called and asked them to pray for them, I listened to them pray as they asked God to lead them to those who can help. They didn't ask God to 'fix it' they asked God to lead them to others who can help them. They didn't believe(as so many do)that God would just some how
magically fix the problem or make it go away. <p>Thats how I learned to pray, that God would lead me to those who had answers, or show me where I can find the answers..and He has been faithful in that. He's led me to where I needed to go to find the answers I sought. It's required me to get up and do the work and not just sit on my butt and wait for the answer to come. <p>When I was 17 I accepted Christ as my Savior, I didn't fully grasp what all that meant, I didn't go to church every sunday, I didn't understand 'religious' things. I understood with a child's understanding..When I left home I began to go to church, on my own, I learned a little more, but not alot the preachers did just that"preached" at you, they didn't teach you about what the bible said, they 'told' you what the bible said..and I knew this wasn't what I needed..it didn't give me the answers I was looking for..<p>When I was 18, at a new military base, I went to the church on base, and the pastor wasn't a 'preacher' he was a teacher, and he took the time
to teach me different things within the bible..He would give me different verses and asked me to go home read them and think about what they said, and
then come back later and we would discuss them..
and he taught me how to study God's word, and to search the answers out myself..(God took me where I needed to go, to teach me where to find the answers) I'm sure I could have found another church here at home to do this..but,I was running away from internal problems of my past abuse..this
pastor left, and I went to the church w/ the new preacher, but he was a "preacher" and I didn't and still don't like to preached at..nobody does..so I quit going..I continued to read the bible occassionally..but didn't have anyone to discuss these things with..to mull over what I'd read..to get their opinion of what was said..to share what I felt God was saying to me in that verse..to help me in my understanding of it all..(which is why I feel having a significant other that you can do this with is so important)<p>
WIFTT-my friend is currently between jobs, and she had prayed alot for her new job. However, after she shared her problem with me, we discussed plans, options, different points of view, researched answers, etc to try to do the best she can be. and then, i would not let her give up, but i would continue encouraging her to push herself beyond what her current knoweldge base was, and to open up to new possibilities, and to strategize about different approaches.<p>so instead of internalizing the problem and being content with her own personal situation and passing on the responsibility to god, she pushed herself to take on more personal responsibility to learn more, to take on more knowledge and options, to overcome the problem.<p>TR-Right, she prayed, and God led her to discuss this with you..and you have helped her see where she needed to go and what she needed to do..You
were part of the answer to her prayer..<p>WIFTT-you see, there is a tendency for religion to be the source of the answers, as anna tends to want to use it for, whereas the answers are mostly within ourselves, but in a different process. <p>TR- No, it's not religion that is that way..it's the ppl within the church that are that way..it bugs the hell outta me too..so many who say.."I left it at the cross" "I gave it to God" <p>My belief with this is, God doesn't want the problem/burden 'left' with Him..He wants to help you carry the burden..he wants you to share the problems with Him, and allow Him to lead you..(as you have said here)<p>WIFTT: Without relying on religion, i must search out the same answers for myself, but without the basis of a 2000 year old philosophy, but with the reality of today, and the desire to search out the knowledgable ones. Then i still make the decision for myself, as I have the sole responsibility to myself, not to anyone else. Now if the knowledge base for the answer is larger than i currently have, i must search out the increased knowledge base, and then make the decision.<p>TR- I just choose to seek answers in the Bible also, because many of the problems we face today are discussed in the Bible..but, I also ask God for guidance in leading me to the people who have the answers to questions I don't have, (I don't have the knowledge about as you say)..but, I don't just pick up the phone book or just call anyone for help..I ask God to lead me to the right person who can help me..the one who can help/guide/teach me the most.

Nyneve,<p>studying, research, attempts, failure, analysis of failure, desire not to make the same mistake again. . . basically analysis of past attempts into new areas, analysis of results, corrective actions, new learned knowledge is stored, old knowledge is replaced.<p>remember, you learn the most from failure and mistakes? well, in order to fail, you must try new areas, be brave and bold and venture where you should go, and maybe you shouldn't go. remember you ventured where you thought you never would? well, now do you have the experience, knowledge and wisdom of what not to do? how not to feel? how not to act? remember i told you i ventured where i never would? well, same premise, same knowledge learned. . . <p>there are two ways to learn, book and practical. the combination of the two is the best. I have worked for someone who couldn't read, yet was one of the top at his job. i have worked for someone who was very theoretical and smart, PhD, but because he thought he knew everything, missed some very important opportunities and made some very poor decisions, and ultimately lost what he built, although just before it would have plummetted to near nothing.<p>Nyneve, here again, personality type has alot to do with how one processes and uses information. this personality is part of the genetic lottery one gets at birth, and either gets improved or lost with the family of origin.<p>S_N_L
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I think God fully expects us to use our brains, and be proactive, which is what you describe. Why else give us brains? <hr></blockquote> <p>first, your logic is grossly flawed. . you cant' justify being given something because we have it. . . <p>My X used to use that logic all the time. . . and she couldn't make a big decision to save her life, by herself.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Making atheism the default choice and making God be proven absolutely to refute it is obviously ignorant...would you agree? <hr></blockquote><p>i did not make atheism the default choice, it carries equal opportunity, just as "not to decide" is not the default, it is a choice also. I made it a choice based upon my logic, not yours or anyone elses.<p>however, the discussion of religion is a debate that will continue forever, because of the abstractness, and the emotions it plays with, particularly hope where an individual doesn't have control or answers. The concept of god can be used to explain what we can't, or to explain coincidences, yet, outcomes are not predetermined, there is some randomness, and if you use religion to explain randomness, and the currently unexplained, then religion or god loses its value as the unknown gets explained otherwise, maybe not now, but in time.<p>Finally, SNL, you may take part in the religious debate to your satisfaction and curiosity all you want. . . however, i do believe at some point, making a decision in your one lives their life, now from what i have read, you have not made either very good decisions, or have shown much remorse for making mistakes.<p>my point is that you need to make a decision about your marriage, you need to take responsibility for your actions, and end the charade of waiting for someone/something else to make your decision:<p> either decide to work on your marriage with honesty and in earnest, or decide that you don't want to be married anymore and stop the mental masturbation about debating and waiting or putting in a facade about trying, butnot doing the homework. . . . you have enough information. . . . SO WHAT'S YOUR DECISION? <p>WIFTTy

TR,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>TR-Right, she prayed, and God led her to discuss this with you..and you have helped her see where she needed to go and what she needed to do..You were part of the answer to her prayer.. <hr></blockquote><p>if you use God to explain the normal activities of meeting new people, and communicating with others, and having someone like you help you, you are using god as the explanation for living life, for being, and for normal activities, and yet, the same activities occur whether you believe in god or not. the belief gives you hope, which is good, religion is good for that. it gives you a reason for what you can't see or know, and that is comforting. <p>however, life will continue with or without him. . . <p>my friend then asked me, "why did you come into my life, and why did i come into yours?"<p>my answer is that who you meet is a random event, and with the billions of people on the earth, you are bound to be introduced to good people and bad people, statistically speaking, it is a high probability.<p>what we learn from each person what is unique to that person, as each person is unique, we choose to learn what we can absorb by our intellect and our outlook on learning. . . . nothing more, nothing less. the more experiences we have bymeeting people, conversation, and pushing ourselves beyond our comfort level, we gain more knowledge everyday, how we choose to use it is up to the individual.<p>good luck.<p>WIFTTy

Oh yes, WIFTTy, I'm so "with you" on the FOO issues, and have been doing some studying along those lines as well...<p>And, I also agree with your "life" statements regarding the two examples you gave of learning vs. knowing...<p>My "problem" if you will, comes from a realization that I have come to, that God is in control of all things. That is not to say that we are rag dolls who are being puppeteered (sp?) throughout life, but rather that we have free will, but ultimately, God is in control.<p>Now, to be fair, this is front-most in my mind because I am newly re"working" my 12-steps, as a member of al-anon. It could have been al-anon, or AA or NA or OA or any other "A" because I have this addictive personality that can't be satisfied (and heck, I'm even addicted to recovery [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] )... I am trying very, very hard to get my life right, and part of that includes having God in my life... and not just a visitor... which reminds me of my life right now...<p>I am not, but I have been before, a fanatical Christian. I don't want to make that mistake again. Because I have an addictive personality, I tend to be one of those "all or nothing" folks... but there is such a thing as being "all for God" without shoving it down people's throats, and allowing people to make their own decisions.<p>I'm rambling, aren't I??<p>Sorry.<p>It's just that I'm working through this in my own mind too... and I'm learning that whatever is, simply IS. <p>If God is real, even if you don't believe in Him, He's still real. Right? The problem comes when we try to put God in this box that describes Him, when in fact He just is who He is.<p>I'm still rambling, aren't I??<p>Sigh. Oh well... I'm liking this discussion though, and hopefully we can continue it...

wifty, you seem to have missed the point (whether you agree with it or not you have to understand it first)but anyways, I pretty much approach these discussions as casting bread upon the waters, so do with it as you will. Nor was this thread, or this subject matter about my personal success (or lack thereof) in conducting my life. We all "know" lots of things and do not act accordingly, so what else is new? <p>
snl quote..I think God fully expects us to use our brains, and be proactive, which is what you describe. Why else give us brains? <p>wifty....first, your logic is grossly flawed. . you cant' justify being given something because we have it. . .<p>snl...Sure I can. Since none of us knows for sure what the parameters of our existence really are, we have to start with assumptions..... a la descartes.... I think, therefore I am.....you have a problem with that? If so, what better assumptions do you suggest we start from?<p>If God created us, and the logical process we call cognition, then the conclusion we can discern God from this is the only valid one to make. We could conclude we cannot discern God by thinking/observing but then the question becomes why try at all? But if we go there, then we will never find God, and if He exists, and it is important for us to know that, we suffer the consequences of not knowing. Now God may have made us, not given us the means to know him, and gauranteed our destruction....but if so, there is nothing we can do about it anyways. BUT if we can discern him, then we have to do the work, proactively examine our reality for His existence, and assume we can do that successfully. <p>
If that leads one to conclude we are a random event (God does not exist) that also satisfies the evolutionary constraints, we should be able to arrive at that conclusion cause mother nature evolved us as cognitive creatures. Thereby my assumptions satisfy both possible conditions re our existence. It could be something else alltogether applies, maybe we don't exist at all, maybe we are just a computer program of somekind, or just the 3d representation of a 10 deimensional being.... but since we have no means to ascertain than, and thereby no reason to make choices based on it, we have no reason to consider anything but the 2 choices.<p>wifty...My X used to use that logic all the time. . . and she couldn't make a big decision to save her life, by herself.<p>snl..I am not sure what you meant, logic is logic, making decisions is a different behaviour, and partly emotional. No offense, but did she make a big decision re your marriage? Or did you divorce her? (sorry I forget the details)<p>Making atheism the default choice and making God be proven absolutely to refute it is obviously ignorant...would you agree? <p>wifty...i did not make atheism the default choice, it carries equal opportunity, just as "not to decide" is not the default, it is a choice also. I made it a choice based upon my logic, not yours or anyone elses.<p>snl...Wifty surely you understand that logic is not personal, it is either right or wrong, although one does need to agree in the same underlying assumptions...and I agree with the ones you stated, they are the ones I used too. So if logic takes people to different places, then clearly one is wrong....correct?<p>wifty...however, the discussion of religion is a debate that will continue forever, because of the abstractness, and the emotions it plays with, particularly hope where an individual doesn't have control or answers. The concept of god can be used to explain what we can't, or to explain coincidences, yet, outcomes are not predetermined, there is some randomness, and if you use religion to explain randomness, and the currently unexplained, then religion or god loses its value as the unknown gets explained otherwise, maybe not now, but in time.<p>snl...I agree these are issues with the missapplication of the knowledge we group under the label religion. The ultimate purpose of determining the nature of our existence is not to draw hope, but to give us the framework withing which to make intelligent decisions...would you agree? So as an atheist, what drives you wifty, for example, why even live at all? And in fact we are not living, we are all dieing at different rates is all. So what is life, what is its purpose, how should we base our choices, what should be the goal of life? (there are very good answers to those questions, I can answer from either viewpoint, atheist, or God based universe...they are very similar, but some important differences...the interesting part to me is few atheists can articulate any coherent answers to them...not saying you can't, that just has been my experience (likewise many religious people cannot really articulate why they do what they do, except reactively). Most atheists seem to operate reactively to life, that is a fatal strategy for us as a species, but there it is.<p>wifty...Finally, SNL, you may take part in the religious debate to your satisfaction and curiosity all you want. . . <p>snl...Thank-you for your permission. You may do so too.<p>wifty...however, i do believe at some point, making a decision in how one lives their life, now from what i have read, you have not made either very good decisions, or have shown much remorse for making mistakes.<p>snl...OK????????? This has what to do with the nature of our existence?<p>wifty...my point is that you need to make a decision about your marriage, you need to take responsibility for your actions, and end the charade of waiting for someone/something else to make your decision:<p>snl....I agree, and in my own way guess that is what I am doing, not sure why you (and others on occassion) suggest I am waiting (doing nothing, which isn't true, but anyways maybe not enough) for events to overtake me, but I am cognizant of what you say, and consider the charge when made (yes I value peer review).<p>wifty...either decide to work on your marriage with honesty and in earnest, or decide that you don't want to be married anymore and stop the mental masturbation about debating and waiting or putting in a facade about trying, butnot doing the homework. . . . you have enough information. . . . SO WHAT'S YOUR DECISION? <p>snl....So far I have decided to make passion the standard for remaining married. I have (and pretty much thinker agrees) given this a few more months (at least at which time an in depth reevaluation...will occur, mostly about seperateing or not). I will continue to do the counselling and apply the MB stuff as much as I can, I will continue to pray for guidance, and I am redoing my internal paradigms along the lines of Dr Phils managing your life.....one thing for sure is my cognitive and emotional sides were not cooperateing very well in decision making, I am trying to work on that too. That is pretty much it at the moment.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> snl...Sure I can. Since none of us knows for sure what the parameters of our existence really are, we have to start with assumptions..... a la descartes.... I think, therefore I am.....you have a problem with that? If so, what better assumptions do you suggest we start from? <hr></blockquote> <p>i just don't start with the assumption i don't know why, therefore it is god's work or there is a superior being. a long time ago, back in the early 1800's, as an example, men worked on the fields, and one day, while working in the fields, around age 50, suddenly the man clutched his heart, and dropped dead. at the funeral, the minister would say, "God works in mysterious ways. it is god's will that he takes the person to the next life/world." Well, 100 years later, we know that he had high cholestrol, heart disease in his family, and a poor diet without the correct amount of potassium. No longer do we apply "god works in mysterious ways," but we understand the physiology of the death. so then when there is an unknown, there was god. now, there is not god but physical reasons.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> if He exists, and it is important for us to know that, we suffer the consequences of not knowing. <hr></blockquote> is it important? or is it important because without the importance there is none? what consequences are we to suffer? what did the greeks and roman suffer because they believed in multiple gods? what consequences will i have to look forward to since i don't believe?<p>you are correct, if you start with certain assumptions, you get certain answers, and if you start with different assumptions, you may get different answers. I do not start with your same assumptions.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> surely you understand that logic is not personal, it is either right or wrong, although one does need to agree in the same underlying assumptions...and I agree with the ones you stated, they are the ones I used too. So if logic takes people to different places, then clearly one is wrong....correct? <hr></blockquote><p>i disagree with the black and white assumption that logic is either right or wrong. since there are different viewpoints, valid logic can be used to different outcomes, yet be valid. i do NOT agree that there has to be right or wrong. that is an assumption that there must be a judgement, which i do not agree with.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> The ultimate purpose of determining the nature of our existence is not to draw hope, but to give us the framework withing which to make intelligent decisions...would you agree? So as an atheist, what drives you wifty, for example, why even live at all? <hr></blockquote><p>I live because i am a random event, why the earth was formed was a random event in space. how life started was also a random event, and the random events occurred here and in other places in the universe. the odds of just us here in the vastness of the universe is pretty small. but there is no way to prove or disprove this, and if you require an explanation, then one is free to do so. I however, choose not believe that god did what i can't explain.<p>Now, i am here as a random event. I have a limited lifetime, which is a random event, not predetermined, i can choose to increase my odds, but can't guarantee the length.<p>one may use god to explain random events, then your life becomes random. if you use your cognitive powers to take advantage of opportunities, then you reduce the randomness, but you can't give the credit to god anymore, you must take the responsibility for your actions and results. there is still randomness one can't control, but then it happens to you, from beyond your control, and not because of you.<p>finally, my point about your debating religion and god was not about "This has what to do with the nature of our existence?" because i not debating our existance, you hijacked the religion discussion as you use it to explain our existance. I do not, nor professed to be discussing our existance. since that is your assumption to lead off a discussion about religion, and god, it is not mine, nor was it. <p>My point is that if a religious discussion is distracting you from making a decision on your marriage, or you are hiding behind the debate to make a diversion, you are giving in to randomness, and then you may be on the receiving end of events that you may not like, yet you have the opportunity to reduce the randomness and tilt the odds in your favor by making a decision, then making a plan to follow the decision, and make milestone evaluations to insure that the plan is correct. . . <p>So you see, it is easy to obfuscate a discussion by bringing in your assumptions, yet we did not agree on the assumptions. I believe you have honed this skill with your wife, since you are "more skilled" at debate to create confusion, and with confusion, there is time to delay any decisions. Therefore, you are an expert at not taking control and responsibility to solve your life's dilemmas and your marriage with confusion and diversion.<p>i will no longer respond to debate in religion for the sake of religion. I will however, discuss individual responsibilities in their life, their problems, and their plans to solve the problems.<p>WIFTTy

Wiftty, <p>I don't know what was in SNL's heart when he posted on this thread. His post sounded sincere to me. I really didn't see what you saw. Although, I have seen many threads where SNL used his debate tactics to confuse the real issues. I often wonder how his wife feels she gets a fair discussion when trying to discuss issues he disagrees with. <p>I know you don't believe in God but I found it interesting how God teaches us through the Bible to look out for those who try to confuse and argue for their own self ambitions. <p>I do also agree with you 100% on religion debates. When a thread becomes an argument more than a discussion on religion or on any other matter, I try to stay off or at least not be pulled in to the argument. I don't feel this helps me grow as a Christian. Discussing is good but arguing is not.<p>Anyway, I do have some questions for you though. It's just some thought questions for you. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>"What if you are wrong and your girlfriend is right?" "What if there is a heaven and a hell?" "What if there's a God and he does will hold us each accountable for our actions?" If you are wrong I would think it would be more devastating for you than if she is wrong. There's no need for you to answer this on the thread. It's just food for thought for you. <p>Also, when you get a chance, I'm going to keep hounding you, [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , Would you mind answering my other questions on the "religion" thread posted. I also have one more question to add to that. I'll edit and repost it so you'll know which thread. Thanks. Oh also, if you don't want to answer, please just let me know, then I'll quit hounding.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>P.S.<p>Wifty, I decided to put the questions on it's own thread. THANKS. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Double P.S.<p>I do see how this subject did start to get off your main question though. So this will be my last post on this one too. However, please don't hesitate to ever ask me any questions about religion such as the one you asked here. Even if it is just to see how I think. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>